Heaven Or Paradise?

[Chopper]

Jesus indicated we go to Paradise. Luke 23:43 (NIV) and as He also indicated that no man has ever seen God, John 1:18 (NIV) and also indicated that Abraham's side was Paradise, Luke 16:19-31 (NIV), we see there is a place where the dead go temporarily until the NEW Earth is created and the NEW Jerusalem comes down to it to be God's residence for Eternity.

Hi Buddy, long time no see.

 

[jasonc]

I was assuming the OP meant the New Jerusalem when they stated the choice, "The new earth."



I think, not positive, but I think there probably is an actual tree of life and as I understand it, Hell is beneath the surface of the earth. So, all that stuff we've always heard about "down there" concerning Hell...it has some basis.

Read what it says
not under the earth if it's outside the tree of life

 

[Kenny_ms]

Read what it says
not under the earth if it's outside the tree of life

I probably misunderstood what you asked originally.

 

[jasonc]

I probably misunderstood what you asked originally.

if its literal then that how is it?
I can include other things as well.
ie the sun , moon,

 

[Kenny_ms]

I understand the term "literal". I was a little afraid I didn't quit understand the rest of what you were saying when I first answered, and still I'm not sure.

 

[jasonc]

I understand the term "literal". I was a little afraid I didn't quit understand the rest of what you were saying when I first answered, and still I'm not sure.

In Isiah its speaks of a new heavens and the new earth having a sun and moon.yet in revelation 22 it says no sun nor moon.so how are both a literal statement?

 

[The_Epsicle]

You don't think there is a Physical Heaven? If not, why?

No, you misunderstood what I was saying. Angels are spiritual creatures but they can come to earth so it only stands to reason that physical creatures could enter the realm of the spiritual. Humans also are made in the image of God whereas angels and animals are not, Humans are therefore both spiritual and physical creatures fully capable of being in either place completely.

Why do you believe that? True that I didn't supply verses to back up my thoughts but that's because they were pretty much mainstream. I mention that so you know why I'm asking for scripture to substantiate your not so mainstream ideas, or anything for that matter, when I provided nothing.

And as you say, this is all just opinion so no big deal but we all base our opinions on something.

Sure no problem. My belief is that Heaven is not inside our concept of time and space and neither is Hell, they are different realms apart from the Earthly universe, when you die your spirit is separated from your physical body and goes to be with Christ and since Christ is outside our concept of time and space you(meaning your spiritual body) can then go to judgement day immediately and be reunited with you physical body which has now been made perfect, since we all must be judged before we can receive our punishment or reward, basically God's using a time machine. While the Bible describes those who are dead as "sleeping" in multiple places, I believe this is simply because the body appears to be sleeping even though the spirit is alive elsewhere.


My verses for the dead being conscious though the body is dead:

"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. (Luke 16:22-23 ESV)

"And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”" - Luke 23:42-43 ESV

"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." - 2 Corinthians 5:8 ESV

I obviously don't have any for my idea of Heaven being outside our concept of time and space, the only evidence I have is that they are described as two different places. We will be in Heaven until the day of judgement but depending on the concept of time in heaven that could be a very short, or very long time the Bible just doesn't say on certain things.

 

[Kenny_ms]

In Isiah its speaks of a new heavens and the new earth having a sun and moon.yet in revelation 22 it says no sun nor moon.so how are both a literal statement?

Got me. I never noticed the discrepancy but will take a look at it sometime. I was always under the impression that there was none and the light of God was the actual physical light we would see with.

 

[jasonc]

Got me. I never noticed the discrepancy but will take a look at it sometime. I was always under the impression that there was none and the light of God was the actual physical light we would see with.

So did i.until read up end times.

 

[jasonc]

I do take the lake of fire as a place of punishment.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I obviously don't have any for my idea of Heaven being outside our concept of time and space, the only evidence I have is that they are described as two different places.

But the weirdness you do have verses for says to me, just about anything is possible, so it may be, even to the point of probable. I just don't know. I've heard different dimensions preached and with God, I'm not opposed to anything being impossible but I do well to stick with things my little mind can fathom, lol.

On humans being both spirit and human, we differ there in that, only after Jesus rose from the dead, did he walk through a wall, indicating, the new body was spiritual but not the old. Then again you never said at what point they were both spiritual or physical so in affect, at some point humans are both physical and spiritual, so we may have no disagreement on that.

Wonder if there will be like an orientation class in heaven that we'll need to attend in order to get up to snuff on all these things? How fascinating will that be?

 

[jasonc]

relearn torah. ducks for cover, I will explain how that ties in.

 

[Stan1953]

Hi Buddy, long time no see.

Hi Chop...good to be back.

 

[Stan1953]

This argument is so specious it is hardly worth addressing. Jesus does indeed say (indirectly) that believers will go to Heaven (Jn 14:2,3):
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So let's analyze these verses:
1. Who is Jesus? God
2. Is Jesus "the Lord from Heaven"? Yes
3. Is "my Father" God the Father? Yes
4. Is the Father's house Heaven? Yes

This should be more than enough.

This is not something I have specifically studied a lot on but Jesus was speaking TO His Apostles, so this is not meant for everyone.
IMO, it refers to the NEW Jerusalem which is in heaven and will be the house of God on the NEW earth. If you read Rev 21:14 (NIV) you will note that the twelve apostles names are written on the 12 foundations of the NEW Jerusalem. His coming again precedes the NEW Jerusalem by millennia, and as the Apostles will be in the resurrection, they no doubt will be around when the New Jerusalem comes DOWN from Heaven.

 

[Stan1953]

Stan, where is Paradise?
As I understand it there are 3 heavens and don't put too much faith in this as I just recently read it:
1) Between the ground on earth up to the where we break out into space (The song "8 Miles High" comes to mind here
2) Then from there, all we see in the universe. "The heavens" if you will and that sounds right to me after hearing the phrase all my life.
3) Then Gods Heaven. Oops, it's all Gods but you see what I mean.
Truth? not sure, but point being, if that is true, and we go anywhere other than earth when we die, we go to Heaven. I have no doubt it's Paradise as the book does say that, whatever paradise is. I've seen mans topical version of Paradise, but not sure what Gods version is....I'd guess it's a nice place to be.

Paradise is in a spiritual dimension so where is not relative.

That's old Jewish understanding/mythology, not actual physical places.
The heavens are indeed everything above what we can see, which today we call space.
Heaven is a spiritual or meta-physical place where God resides with Jesus and His angles.
It cannot be found by GPS, if that's what you mean? The same goes for Paradise, except God does not reside there. As He IS Omnipresent, I'm sure he is there as well, but I trust you understand the difference?

 

[Stan1953]

Curious.if the tree of life is that literal then literally outside of heaven on the earth is hell?

The Tree of Life, is noted in Rev 22:2 (NIV) as being in the NEW Jerusalem. Whether it is the same one as in Genesis 2:9 (NIV), I do not know.

 

[jasonc]

The Tree of Life, is noted in Rev 22:2 (NIV) as being in the NEW Jerusalem. Whether it is the same one as in Genesis 2:9 (NIV), I do not know.

tis a bit different in that it has twelve fruits for the healing of nations. not sure what that means. I simply am pointing out the the new heavens and new earth are also mentioned in the tanach having a sun and moon and the shabat is mentioned.

also they are created. so if that is the case what is the best answer? I don't know

 

[Stan1953]

Stan, the question, at least by the multiple choice answers, seems to be asking "where". Or are you saying, the new Jerusalem will not be our home? Or are you saying Gods abode will not be in the new Jerusalem?
And yea, eternal life is, eternal life...hard to argue with that, but I don't think anyone is.
and as He also indicated that no man has ever seen God,
The Epistle reminds me that Adam was a man and he and God walked and talked together. But in defense of what you said, Adam had a different body than us so....

Yes I understand that, but pinpointing a meta-physical place is NOT possible. We are limited by our own language.
The NEW Jerusalem will be home to us all initially, but based on what Rev 22 does depict, it does appear it will be the STARTING place for Eternal Life. Many things are not clear, not should they be IMO. We have no need to speculate of anything God has NOT mentioned in His word. We can ONLY speculate on what we DO see in scripture and even then we must be careful.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Paradise is in a spiritual dimension so where is not relative.

Scripture...anything at all to back that up?

And while where at it, how bout Hell, where is it?

 

[Stan1953]

I mean believers may travel between the new earth and new heavens.

I don't see that anywhere, and the NEW heaven IMO is a new universe, not a new place where God resides, because He will reside in the NEW Jerusalem.