Heaven Or Paradise?

[Stan1953]

This boasting will do no good, but I must go on. I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I[a] was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows. 3 Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know 4 that I was caught up[b] to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell. 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 NLT
20 I am full of hope and feel sure I will not have any reason to be ashamed. I am certain I will continue to have the same boldness to speak freely that I always have. I will let God use my life to bring more honor to Christ. It doesn’t matter whether I live or die. 21 To me, the only important thing about living is Christ. And even death would be for my benefit.[c] 22 If I continue living here on earth, I will be able to work for the Lord. But what would I choose—to live or to die? I don’t know. 23 It would be a hard choice. Sometimes I want to leave this life and be with Christ. That would be much better for me; 24 however, you people need me here alive. 25 I am sure of this, so I know that I will stay here and be with you to help you grow and have joy in your faith. 26 When I am there with you again, you will be bursting with pride over what Christ Jesus did to help me. Philippians 1:20-26 ERV

If you're referring to v23, it was his desire, NOT a statement of fact as to what happens when one dies. It is highly likely that Paul also believed that Jesus would also be in Paradise, but mostly his words stem from a feeling of extreme immanency, than what would actually happen when He died.

 

[Stan1953]

well this is going to get interesting. let the futurist views of it an the partial preterits views fight.lol

Who is Preterist?

 

[Stan1953]

I can't make a point or conjecture to something I simply don't see, or maybe that is my point but you already know that.

What do you think Abraham's side is, or where is it?

 

[jasonc]

Who is Preterist?

in short those who don't see any future seven year trib or great tribulation. I have that view. I figured all arguing and disagreeing over isreal recently would have made that clear.

 

[iLOVE]

This is a Revelation of things to come, which includes the great tribulation, NOT of things as they were or are.
Lots of hyperbole and much attention must be paid to get the actual context.

If you're referring to v23, it was his desire, NOT a statement of fact as to what happens when one dies. It is highly likely that Paul also believed that Jesus would also be in Paradise, but mostly his words stem from a feeling of extreme immanency, than what would actually happen when He died.

"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:56 NIV

Jesus is not in Paradise.

 

[Stan1953]

the tree of life isn't really mentioned. we can only presume what it was. I prefer a literal. ylt.

Tree of life IS in both the verses I quoted and the YLT also says Tree of Life.

that could be rendered as crops, but well with the greek being a bit different then English and hard to translate literally. crops will suffice but there is more.

I am very confident in the actual credentialed Greek scholars that did know what they were doing here.

literally outside the gates of the city are those sinners?

Again you need to be a tad more specific and pertinent.

 

[jasonc]

"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:56 NIV

Jesus is not in Paradise.

if jesus isn't in paradise, where is the theif on the cross that he said

today you shall be with me in paradise

?

 

[Stan1953]

in short those who don't see any future seven year trib or great tribulation. I have that view. I figured all arguing and disagreeing over isreal recently would have made that clear.

No, I meant WHO on this thread so you see as a Preterist? I know what they believe.

 

[Kenny_ms]

What do you think Abraham's side is, or where is it?

I don't know.

But there is nothing there to indicate it's a Spiritual realm.

You don't need to try to lead me into figuring it out for myself, if that was going to happen, it would have by now. I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but I have basic reasoning skills and none of those are screaming anything at the moment, lol.

You are going to have to simply explain your findings

 

[Stan1953]

"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:56 NIV
Jesus is not in Paradise.

At that point He wasn't, but on the day He died He was or else He lied to the thief. Whether He goes back and forth, or as God just exists in both places is not readily seen or known.

 

[Stan1953]

I don't know.
But there is nothing there to indicate it's a Spiritual realm.
You don't need to try to lead me into figuring it out for myself, if that was going to happen, it would have by now. I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but I have basic reasoning skills and none of those are screaming anything at the moment, lol.
You are going to have to simply explain your findings

Where exactly would a dead Abraham and Lazarus be if not in a spiritual realm? There bodies were in the grave.

 

[Stan1953]

in short those who don't see any future seven year trib or great tribulation. I have that view. I figured all arguing and disagreeing over isreal recently would have made that clear.

Sorry, must have missed those threads, and as it is NOT on topic here I won't push it.

 

[Kenny_ms]

OH, ok, you feel everyone comes back as a spirit and not a physical being...correct?

When all the dead in Christ rise, they are given spiritual bodies, correct?

Was Jesus in a spiritual body after his resurrection? And if so, he still walked in a physical world.

 

[Malachi]

I was assuming the OP meant the New Jerusalem when they stated the choice, "The new earth."

Kenny,
A lot of Christians assume that the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven and comes down to this earth. But that is not what is stated. It simply descends out of Heaven and hovers over the earth, since it will be the source of light for the New Earth (Rev 21:23,24)

I think, not positive, but I think there probably is an actual tree of life and as I understand it, Hell is beneath the surface of the earth. So, all that stuff we've always heard about "down there" concerning Hell...it has some basis.

A few things that need to be clarified and/or corrected:
1. The tree of life is in "the midst of the Paradise of God", and that is located in the New Jerusalem, and will remain there for eternity (Rev 2:7; 22:1,2).
2. Hades (Sheol) is unfortunately translated at "hell" which is incorrect. Hades is "in the heart of the earth" or "in the lower parts of the earth", which is indeed "down there" and where the unsaved go to await their final judgment (Mt 12:40; Eph 4:9).
3. Hell (Gehenna) called "the Lake of Fire" is located in "outer darkness" -- probably somewhere even outside of space (Mt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30). A "new earth" will have neither Hades nor the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:13-15).

There will be people living all over the earth when it is renewed, but we are presently speaking about the Church and who goes to Heaven. In brief, every believer goes to Heaven when they die, and after the Resurrection/Rapture the Church dwells in the New Jerusalem. For proof that believers go immediately to Heaven (no mythical Purgatory) see Acts 7:54-8:2 (the martyrdom of Stephen).

 

[jasonc]

Tree of life IS in both the verses I quoted and the YLT also says Tree of Life.



I am very confident in the actual credentialed Greek scholars that did know what they were doing here.



Again you need to be a tad more specific and pertinent.

where is without then ? the bible says in the greek literal rendered ylt(that is what they did most of the time that is why its hard to read. that for without the tree life? where is it. without means a location and the word right? isn't there so it can be outside the gates. literally

the tree of life is where in jewish commentary? If its already known to the jews then and now what it looked like then kindly show it? I can find jewish views on paradise and that is well the garden of eden and well jesus says that

he that overcometh shall I give the right to the tree of life in the garden with me. interesting. that is in the first few chapters of the book of revelation. I choose the most literal translation of the greek to the English for a good reason.

its not perfect either. never said it was.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's_Literal_Translation
yet I present that challenged. being jewish in the flesh and I have buried kin and do the rites they have. I looked into their views of the afterlife. ie sheol, the messianic era. what happens after. what is paradise.
gan eden is the closest to paradise.

 

[jasonc]

t

No, I meant WHO on this thread so you see as a Preterist? I know what they believe.

I am. if the others are here that are and post you will see it clearly. one has already.

 

[iLOVE]

At that point He wasn't, but on the day He died He was or else He lied to the thief. Whether He goes back and forth, or as God just exists in both places is not readily seen or known.

Before Christ's death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, a supernatural place somewhere in the heart of the earth. Hades has two compartments, the abode of the lost called in the Bible "torment," and the other side, the place of the saints of God called Paradise, and also referred to as "Abraham's Bosom."

When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into the Paradise side of Hades and "took captivity captive." This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father in Heaven. The Paradise side of Hades is now empty. The torment side today holds all souls of people who rejected Christ's salvation, and who have died to this point in human history. People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, now go directly to God, the Father, in Heaven.

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40).

"Because You will not leave my soul in Hades, or allow Your Holy One to see decay" (Acts 2:27).
"Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (Eph. 4:8-9).
https://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq353.html

 

[Kenny_ms]

Kenny,
A lot of Christians assume that the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven and comes down to this earth. But that is not what is stated. It simply descends out of Heaven and hovers over the earth, since it will be the source of light for the New Earth (Rev 21:23,24)

A few things that need to be clarified and/or corrected:
1. The tree of life is in "the midst of the Paradise of God", and that is located in the New Jerusalem, and will remain there for eternity (Rev 2:7; 22:1,2).
2. Hades (Sheol) is unfortunately translated at "hell" which is incorrect. Hades is "in the heart of the earth" or "in the lower parts of the earth", which is indeed "down there" and where the unsaved go to await their final judgment (Mt 12:40; Eph 4:9).
3. Hell (Gehenna) called "the Lake of Fire" is located in "outer darkness" -- probably somewhere even outside of space (Mt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30). A "new earth" will have neither Hades nor the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:13-15).

There will be people living all over the earth when it is renewed, but we are presently speaking about the Church and who goes to Heaven. In brief, every believer goes to Heaven when they die, and after the Resurrection/Rapture the Church dwells in the New Jerusalem. For proof that believers go immediately to Heaven (no mythical Purgatory) see Acts 7:54-8:2 (the martyrdom of Stephen).

I never thought it descended from heaven, but interesting concept.

Point 1) agree
Point 2) agree
Point 3) "outer" certainly would indicate somewhere other than deep in the earth but juries still out on my thoughts on that so lets say "undecided".

The rest I think you are pretty well right on. I don't think there is a Rapture but that's neither here nor there for this thread.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13, I have come to see the new heavens and the new earth as the new temple of Lord. The Righteousness that Dwells within our Hearts, which is the new temple of the Lord, is the Spirit of Christ. For He is the Lord our Righteousness (Jer 23:5).

Chopper started a bible study thread on Why so many animal sacrifices? and he looks at 2 Chron 7. This was a sacrifice for the dedication of the temple. The chapter is an interesting read to say the least when it comes to the temple and how the Lord fills it.

I don't have any idea about the new heaven and new earth other than what Peter said.

I read the chapter 7 but didn't get a whole lot from it. I'll have to start further back and read more in context. I don't know these books very well. I did get that this dedication took place during the time of the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Stan1953]

OH, ok, you feel everyone comes back as a spirit and not a physical being...correct?
When all the dead in Christ rise, they are given spiritual bodies, correct?
Was Jesus in a spiritual body after his resurrection? And if so, he still walked in a physical world.

NOT what was being discussed Kenny. Luke 16 and 23 is about AFTER the first death, not after the judgement or Jesus' return.