Hell; are you sure?

[Bubba]

Hell and the Grave
"For You will not leave my SOUL IN SHEOL (Hell in the Authorised Version), nor will You allow Your Holy One to see CORRUPTION." Psalm 16:10
"If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my BED IN HELL behold, You are there." Psalm 139:8

'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment. This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures. The translators are still very shy though, and in many instances have left the word 'sheol' untranslated in modern Bible versions. This is because they can see that this word obviously means 'the grave' and not the traditional meaning. Rather than admit this though, and the folly of using the inserted word 'hell' in the past, they have just left the Hebrew word 'sheol' untranslated many times, and left the readers to make up their own minds.
Comparing old and new translations
The following are two interesting examples of how translating has changed by comparing the King James Version (A.V.)and the New King James Version (N.K.J.V.) of Jonah 2:2, and Isaiah 4:14:
• Jonah 2:2 A.V. - "out of the belly of HELL cried I" N.K.J.V. - "out of the belly of SHEOL I cried"
• Isaiah 4:14 A.V. - "Therefore HELL hath enlarged herself" N.K.J.V. - "Therefore SHEOL has enlarged itself"
You will notice the same situation with Psalm 16:10 quoted as a key verse above.
'Gehenna' the rubbish tip
'Gehenna' or 'The valley of the son of Hinnom' which is what the Greek word means, was the rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus which was also used to burn the bodies of criminals who had suffered capital punishment. Most of the occurrences of the word 'hell' in the New Testament refer to this 'place of burning' outside of Jerusalem.
'Hades' the unseen
The word Hades comes from two words: 'A', which is 'Alpha', the first letter of the Greek alphabet and is a negative letter which simply means 'without'. The equivalent in English would be the word 'un'. The other word is 'eido' which means 'to see'. So 'Hades' simply means, 'unseen'. Is the 'hades' of the Bible the same place as that described in Greek Mythology? Websters Dictionary describes Hades as, "the grim god of the lower world dwelling in the abode of the dead conceived as either a dark and gloomy subterranean realm or a remote island beyond the western sea."
Consistent Bible teaching
If we can accept the words quoted from Psalm 16 which prophetically teach that Jesus went to 'sheol' (ie. the grave) when He died, then to be consistent with Bible teaching, we must accept that Peter meant the grave as well when He said that Jesus went to hades when he quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2:27. Any other explanation would have Old Testament teaching contradicting the New Testament. The fact that the New Testament was written in Greek does not mean that we have to use Greek mythology to interpret Scripture. Today we use words like "lunatic", but this does not mean that we accept that somebody's mental health depends on the phases of the Moon.
Extra info and Bible references
'Hell' is a word that was added (interpolated) to our Bibles and is not a translation of the original language. When we see this word in scripture its true meaning is 'the grave' or 'the pit' in the Old Testament. In the New Testament this word is used with reference to the burning 'rubbish tip' that was outside of Jerusalem, known as 'the valley of the son of Hinnom' or 'gehenna'.
• 'sheol' in the Hebrew is interpolated 'hell' or translated 'grave' or 'pit' in the Old Testament. Psalm 6:5, 9:17, 30:3; Numbers 16:30,33
• 'hades' in the Greek is translated 'grave' or interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. 1Corinthians 15:55, Matthew11:21, 16:18
• 'gehenna' in the Greek is interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. Matthew 5:22, 23:15; Luke 12:5
All Scripture quoted is from the N.K.J.V.

http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/o ... dgrave.asp

 

[RND]

[url]www.helltruth.com[/url]

[url]www.truthaboutdeath.com[/url]

What Happens to a Person When He Dies? Can the Dead Actually Come Back and Visit us?

[url]www.thetruthaboutdeath.org[/url]

 

[Bubba]

[url]www.helltruth.com[/url]

[url]www.truthaboutdeath.com[/url]

What Happens to a Person When He Dies? Can the Dead Actually Come Back and Visit us?

[url]www.thetruthaboutdeath.org[/url]

RND,
If our friends from the End Times forum read this, they really are going to think we are the same person.
Bubba

 

[RND]

RND,
If our friends from the End Times forum read this, they really are going to think we are the same person.
Bubba

: : :o

Bubba,

Are you a professional landscape designer from Victorville, California?

 

[Bubba]

RND,
Nope a Surgical nurse from Fresno, California. Hey, do you know my brother Dow Cross? He lived in Victorville for years.
Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Hell and the Grave
"For You will not leave my SOUL IN SHEOL (Hell in the Authorised Version), nor will You allow Your Holy One to see CORRUPTION." Psalm 16:10
"If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my BED IN HELL behold, You are there." Psalm 139:8

'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment. This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures. The translators are still very shy though, and in many instances have left the word 'sheol' untranslated in modern Bible versions. This is because they can see that this word obviously means 'the grave' and not the traditional meaning. Rather than admit this though, and the folly of using the inserted word 'hell' in the past, they have just left the Hebrew word 'sheol' untranslated many times, and left the readers to make up their own minds.
Comparing old and new translations
The following are two interesting examples of how translating has changed by comparing the King James Version (A.V.)and the New King James Version (N.K.J.V.) of Jonah 2:2, and Isaiah 4:14:
• Jonah 2:2 A.V. - "out of the belly of HELL cried I" N.K.J.V. - "out of the belly of SHEOL I cried"
• Isaiah 4:14 A.V. - "Therefore HELL hath enlarged herself" N.K.J.V. - "Therefore SHEOL has enlarged itself"
You will notice the same situation with Psalm 16:10 quoted as a key verse above.
'Gehenna' the rubbish tip
'Gehenna' or 'The valley of the son of Hinnom' which is what the Greek word means, was the rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus which was also used to burn the bodies of criminals who had suffered capital punishment. Most of the occurrences of the word 'hell' in the New Testament refer to this 'place of burning' outside of Jerusalem.
'Hades' the unseen
The word Hades comes from two words: 'A', which is 'Alpha', the first letter of the Greek alphabet and is a negative letter which simply means 'without'. The equivalent in English would be the word 'un'. The other word is 'eido' which means 'to see'. So 'Hades' simply means, 'unseen'. Is the 'hades' of the Bible the same place as that described in Greek Mythology? Websters Dictionary describes Hades as, "the grim god of the lower world dwelling in the abode of the dead conceived as either a dark and gloomy subterranean realm or a remote island beyond the western sea."
Consistent Bible teaching
If we can accept the words quoted from Psalm 16 which prophetically teach that Jesus went to 'sheol' (ie. the grave) when He died, then to be consistent with Bible teaching, we must accept that Peter meant the grave as well when He said that Jesus went to hades when he quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2:27. Any other explanation would have Old Testament teaching contradicting the New Testament. The fact that the New Testament was written in Greek does not mean that we have to use Greek mythology to interpret Scripture. Today we use words like "lunatic", but this does not mean that we accept that somebody's mental health depends on the phases of the Moon.
Extra info and Bible references
'Hell' is a word that was added (interpolated) to our Bibles and is not a translation of the original language. When we see this word in scripture its true meaning is 'the grave' or 'the pit' in the Old Testament. In the New Testament this word is used with reference to the burning 'rubbish tip' that was outside of Jerusalem, known as 'the valley of the son of Hinnom' or 'gehenna'.
• 'sheol' in the Hebrew is interpolated 'hell' or translated 'grave' or 'pit' in the Old Testament. Psalm 6:5, 9:17, 30:3; Numbers 16:30,33
• 'hades' in the Greek is translated 'grave' or interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. 1Corinthians 15:55, Matthew11:21, 16:18
• 'gehenna' in the Greek is interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. Matthew 5:22, 23:15; Luke 12:5
All Scripture quoted is from the N.K.J.V.

http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/o ... dgrave.asp

No, Bubba, I'll have to disagree with you on this. Jesus is very clear what hell is; the fiery furnace, the eternal fire, the lake of burning sulphur, etc. So there are many adjectives used to describe the same thing so that people can't quibble about words to make scripture say what itching ears want to hear.

There are 30+ passages where Jesus describes hell. So it is an unistakable place of eternal torment.

 

[Bubba]

No, Bubba, I'll have to disagree with you on this. Jesus is very clear what hell is; the fiery furnace, the eternal fire, the lake of burning sulphur, etc. So there are many adjectives used to describe the same thing so that people can't quibble about words to make scripture say what itching ears want to hear.

There are 30+ passages where Jesus describes hell. So it is an unistakable place of eternal torment.

Heidi,
We can't always agree on everything. The article I quoted from has as it's main focus the word "hell", but I am sure your points will be address. I found it interesting that the KJV quotes in the N.T. the word hell 10 times for hades and only once for grave, where as the NAS quote the word hades 10 times for grave and once for hell and I believe that was in regards to the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4). Guess what version most use to support eternal punishment? Yep, KJV.

Grace, Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,
We can't always agree on everything. The article I quoted from has as it's main focus the word "hell", but I am sure your points will be address. I found it interesting that the KJV quotes in the N.T. the word hell 10 times for hades and only once for grave, where as the NAS quote the word hades 10 times for grave and once for hell and I believe that was in regards to the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4). Guess what version most use to support eternal punishment? Yep, KJV.

Grace, Bubba

There are too many places where the bible talks about eternal punishment to dismiss it. Only Urists claim that there is no etrnal punishment because it is definitely what itching ears want to hear!

In addition, the OT refers to eternal puishment all over the place, especially in the Psalms and proverbs. So there is no getting around eternal punishment. If one doesn't believe scripture on that, then one must throw away the bible altogether and not believe anything it says. The word of God is not something to be played with or changed. Funny how Satan entices us to do that with the bible more than any other book. I wonder why. ;-)

 

[RND]

RND,
Nope a Surgical nurse from Fresno, California. Hey, do you know my brother Dow Cross? He lived in Victorville for years.
Bubba

Home of the Bulldogs!

You SDA by chance?

 

[Bubba]

Home of the Bulldogs!

You SDA by chance?

Yep, that's the college I struggled in. Nope, I am a renegade Presbyterian.
Bubba

 

[RND]

There are too many places where the bible talks about eternal punishment to dismiss it.

There's no question about that. However, do you suppose there is a different between eternal "punishment" and eternal "punishing?"

Only Urists claim that there is no etrnal punishment because it is definitely what itching ears want to hear!

What's an Urists?

In addition, the OT refers to eternal puishment all over the place, especially in the Psalms and proverbs.

Really, where?

So there is no getting around eternal punishment.

This is true, once God lowers the final judgment the punishment will be eternal.

If one doesn't believe scripture on that, then one must throw away the bible altogether and not believe anything it says. The word of God is not something to be played with or changed. Funny how Satan entices us to do that with the bible more than any other book. I wonder why. ;-)

Maybe because the pagan doctrine of eternal hell fire was adopted by the false church for the express purpose of soaking it to the unwashed masses?

I wonder why God is always seen as a pillar of flame or is described as an all consuming fire? I wonder why Satan is seen being kicked out amoungst the firery stones?

Talk about your word tricks!

 

[RND]

Yep, that's the college I struggled in. Nope, I am a renegade Presbyterian.
Bubba

I can't believe a "bubba" would struggle in college! :

I betcha there's a great SDA church in your neck-o-the-woods! Check 'em out. If anything, you sure to sound like a true "reformationist." Thanks God!

 

[Veritas]

Very sure.

Fiddling with definitions of a few verses doesn't work when you have the entire context of the Bible that is extremely clear.

Here are a few verses that are extremely clear:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

“ For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,†says the LORD,

“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,†says the LORD.
“ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.†Isaiah 66:22-24

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."†Revelation 14:9-11

 

[Bubba]

If I had never been taught the modern version of 'hell' what is the most obvious conclusion I would make regarding the word as used in these verses?"
2Samuel 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8 [It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6 Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them.
Psalm 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psalm 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
What is the main thought one would have if they never heard of conscious eternal punishment? Well, it would not be what many preach on Sunday about the eternal destiny of the lost; instead, it would be a place where the body goes at death.

Sheol: underworld, grave, hell, pit.

Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1 place of no return
2.without praise of God
3.wicked sent there for punishment
4.righteous not abandoned to it
5.of the place of exile (
6.of extreme degradation in sin

The King James version translates 65 of this Hebrew word this way: grave, 31; hell, 31; pit, 3. While the New American Standard translates 66 uses of the word as “Sheolâ€Â. Why do we support the KJV view instead of the New American Standard? Is it because we have been conditioned by our preachers and teachers to believe this way? I think so.
Bubba

 

[jgredline]

This is my own work, not a copy and paste.


Matt 25 :31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40 And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (αἰώνιος )fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιος ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιος ) life."

This section of scripture uses the exact same greek word (αἰώνιος ) This word means 1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be. 2 without beginning. 3 without end, never to cease,

So the next questions that comes up is where does this everlasting punishment take place? Jesus tells us that also…
This next section od scripture describes the Judgment of the Nations, which is to be distinguished from the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The Judgment Seat of Christ, a time of review and reward for believers only, takes place after the Rapture (Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:11–15; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10). The Judgment of the Great White Throne takes place in eternity, after the Millennium. The wicked dead will be judged and consigned to the Lake of Fire

Rev. 20:11–15. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So the next question that comes up is what is eternal punishment…
Lets take a look at what this passage says in the Greek…..
Here is Matt 25:46
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

The Greek word for Punishment is (κόλασις) This word simply means Torment…
Now what is torment. Well, I would say being cast into the lake of fire is torment.
Certainly torment would not be anything les that what Jesus went through on his way to the cross… None the less it is for ''ALL ETERNITY''

Further more.... First, the kingdom is said to have been prepared for the righteous from the foundation of the world , where hell was prepared for the devil and his angels ...

God’s desire is that men should be blessed; hell was not originally intended for the human race. But if people willfully refuse life, they choose eternal torment…In closing I feel I need to mention this again…

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of eternal (same word as â€Âeverlastingâ€Â) fire (v. 41), eternal punishment (v. 46), and eternal life (v. 46). The same One who taught eternal life taught eternal punishment (eternal torment). Since the same word for eternal is used to describe each, it is inconsistent to accept one without the other. If the word translated eternal does not mean everlasting, there is no word in the Greek language to convey the meaning. But we know that it does mean everlasting because it is used to describe the eternality of God (1 Tim. 1:17).

 

[RND]

Here are a few verses that are extremely clear:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

The second death.

Have you ever noticed anyone, even once, that was dead feel anything? Does death here connotate burning in torment for ever? If so, would one have to be technically "alive" to feel something?

If seen loads of dead folks over the years and surprisingly not one seemed to be in pain.

Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

Everlasting destruction. Could that possiblly mean "perminent" destruction? As in, final destruction or "perminent" destruction?

The word "everlasting" translates into "perpetual." Which means just that. The destruction is perminent, perptual, last forever.

“ For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,†says the LORD,

“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,†says the LORD.
“ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.†Isaiah 66:22-24

"they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me."

Does that mean no women will be burned for eternity in terrible agony? Or is it possible that the verse is saying that "no one can put out the fire of God, especially the dead?

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."†Revelation 14:9-11

This one's funny! Because it reveals that the holy angels and Jesus the Lamb are in hell too!

Follow along:

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb? Or could it possibly mean that it's "torture" for the unrighteous to be in the presence of the holy angels and Jesus the Lamb?

 

[Heidi]

If I had never been taught the modern version of 'hell' what is the most obvious conclusion I would make regarding the word as used in these verses?"
2Samuel 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8 [It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 26:6 Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them.
Psalm 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psalm 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
What is the main thought one would have if they never heard of conscious eternal punishment? Well, it would not be what many preach on Sunday about the eternal destiny of the lost; instead, it would be a place where the body goes at death.

Sheol: underworld, grave, hell, pit.

Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1 place of no return
2.without praise of God
3.wicked sent there for punishment
4.righteous not abandoned to it
5.of the place of exile (
6.of extreme degradation in sin

The King James version translates 65 of this Hebrew word this way: grave, 31; hell, 31; pit, 3. While the New American Standard translates 66 uses of the word as “Sheolâ€Â. Why do we support the KJV view instead of the New American Standard? Is it because we have been conditioned by our preachers and teachers to believe this way? I think so.
Bubba

Bubba, if hell isn't somthing to be feared, then there's no reason to fear the Lord. People can just get away with any atrocity they want and suffer no punishment. People would kill themselves because death would be preferable to life. So yes indeed hellhas to be a horrible place both for justice and because none of the bible would make sense if it wasn't. ;-)

 

[Bubba]

This is my own work, not a copy and paste.


Matt 25 :31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40 And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (αἰώνιος )fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιος ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιος ) life."

Jgredine,
I have only been considering this whole idea of limited torment and annihilation, for a short time. I could make a rebuttal using Edward Fudge on this passage, but I will hold off and see what others write. I am definitely on a learning curve. I know the arguments of those that believe in conscious eternal punishment, because I have in the past used them myself.
Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Jgredine,
I have only been considering this whole idea of limited torment and annihilation, for a short time. I could make a rebuttal using Edward Fudge on this passage, but I will hold off and see what others write. I am definitely on a learning curve. I know the arguments of those that believe in conscious eternal punishment, because I have in the past used them myself.
Bubba

Limited torment is impossible because at what point would it end? Where does scripture say that after people die, they will be tormented for, let's say, 17 years and 3 months? :o The idea is not only unbiblical but it's ludicrous and man-made as well. :roll: So don't read the opinions of fallible human beings. All you need is God's word because that's the only source of in fallibility.

 

[jgredline]

Jgredine,
I have only been considering this whole idea of limited torment and annihilation, for a short time. I could make a rebuttal using Edward Fudge on this passage, but I will hold off and see what others write. I am definitely on a learning curve. I know the arguments of those that believe in conscious eternal punishment, because I have in the past used them myself.
Bubba

Fair enough...P.s I have enjoyed my conversations with you..
javier