Hell; are you sure?

[Bubba]

Limited torment is impossible because at what point would it end? Where does scripture say that after people die, they will be tormented for, let's say, 17 years and 3 months? :o The idea is not only unbiblical but it's ludicrous and man-made as well. :roll: So don't read the opinions of fallible human beings. All you need is God's word because that's the only source of in fallibility.

Hi Heidi,
I know that there will be torment, because Scripture tells us there will be "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:40-43). Also we know when Jesus comes back again every eye will see him and every knee will bow before Him (Philipians 2:10-11) and I believe this will be a horrific moment for the unsaved (torment in the realization of how bad they missed it in regards to our Lord Jesus). How long is this torment, is up to debate, some say for eternity others say that torment is temporary and annihilation is eternal. In glory we will know without a doubt. I would ask you to consider the valley of Gehenna or Valley of Hinnom, which was a literal valley located southwest of the old city of Jerusalem. In Jesus' day, it was a dump and back in the days when I was a youngster, I used to live in a small town that had a dump site that always was smouldering from fires that were set to burn the trash. Today, in the Republic of California, you would probably go to jail for lighting your trash up, but not back then. Jerusalem's dump site was like ours, it burned all the time, as garbage was placed there. You could say the fire never went out, but the trash was being constantly burn't up. That is how I am seeing the lost of mankind, they will weep and gnash their teeth and then be consumed, the fire of God is eternal and so is the death of the soul. Though I am way leaning in this direction, I am still learning and weighing the Word of God, I have had a lot of dogma ripped from me over the last 33 years of being born again, "freewill", "dispensationalism","legalism", etc. and may be the Lord will correct me in this area, but thank God for the grace that's there, even when our theology is at times screwed up. I am still His child and He still loves me and enjoys me anyhow.
Grace, Bubba

 

[RND]

Bubba, if hell isn't somthing to be feared, then there's no reason to fear the Lord.

Heidi, I know you didn't direct this at me but wouldn't "love" be a motivator for "respecting" the Lord?

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

What you are suggesting here is that God forces His will, and ways on people. Love me or else!

Now answer honestly, if a husband came home every night and demanded "love" from his wife or else, would that be love or force, fear, intimidation and manipulation?

Do you honestly believe that is how God the Father operates?

The scriptures tell us that God is love.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

We know God's 'perfect' love is described in 1 Corinthians 13. Charity here is the Greek word agape, which describes the "benevolence" of love.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

God suffers with us long and is kind. God doesn't "envy" us, but rather is "jealous" for us! God is not pride, but abhorts pride. God is never rude and never seeks his own way for his sake, but for ours. God is not easily provoked and thinks no evil against those that love Him. God never rejoices when we fall or fail or cause iniquity and God loves the truth. God bears all things for us, believes all things are posible for us, God hopes on all things for us and God has endured all things for us. And lastly, God's love never fails us in anyway. He is merciful to the end.

Yet you seem to suggest God lights the match and starts the fire of the ultimate form of torture and cruelty that never ends and that half-way through "eternity" He flips us over.

The God you serve is a sadist. The God I serve is full of perfect love, patient and merciful to the very end.

 

[Veritas]

The second death.

Have you ever noticed anyone, even once, that was dead feel anything?

Yes, I have. In fact all christians have.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:11

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Ephesians 2:1

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. Colossians 2:13

Does death here connotate burning in torment for ever? If so, would one have to be technically "alive" to feel something?

The question is What is dead? There will be those who are dead in their sins; they are dead to Christ.

Our bodies are mortal. But the believer's body will be given life through His Spirit...

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Romans 8:11

The damned will awaken too and be reunited with their bodies. They will not recieve the Spirit of Life, but they will awake into eternity (not a good one though)

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

If seen loads of dead folks over the years and surprisingly not one seemed to be in pain.

They are no longer folks, just empty bodies.

....and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

Everlasting destruction. Could that possiblly mean "perminent" destruction? As in, final destruction or "perminent" destruction?

The word "everlasting" translates into "perpetual." Which means just that. The destruction is perminent, perptual, last forever.

I'll point you to the same verse I quoted above in Daniel

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

The keyword is awake.

“ For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,†says the LORD,

“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,†says the LORD.
“ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.†Isaiah 66:22-24

"they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me."

Does that mean no women will be burned for eternity in terrible agony? Or is it possible that the verse is saying that "no one can put out the fire of God, especially the dead?

Is Jesus your Lord and Savior? I hope so.

I would hope that you know that the word 'men' or 'mankind' is all inclusive. Why did you bring that up like that?

I have no idea what you mean by "no one can put out the fire of God, especially the dead" and how it would ever logically fit into the context of the verses given. Your definition seems meaningless.

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."†Revelation 14:9-11

This one's funny! Because it reveals that the holy angels and Jesus the Lamb are in hell too!

Tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb? Or could it possibly mean that it's "torture" for the unrighteous to be in the presence of the holy angels and Jesus the Lamb?

I think it means exactly what it says. The part I bolded, which is very clear that they will have no rest forever and ever, and the part right before my bolded section. Those in Hell will be completely cut off from God's Spirit. But for a start... remember who God is.

 

[RND]

Yes, I have. In fact all christians have.

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:11

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Ephesians 2:1

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. Colossians 2:13

OK, let's at least be honest with ourselves and scripture.

The verses you quoted here are referring to being "spiritually" dead to sin and not actually physically dead.

I'll take it from your obvious obfuscation that you've never seen an actual dead body say, "Ouch!"

The question is What is dead? There will be those who are dead in their sins; they are dead to Christ.

Our bodies are mortal. But the believer's body will be given life through His Spirit...

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Romans 8:11

The damned will awaken too and be reunited with their bodies. They will not recieve the Spirit of Life, but they will awake into eternity (not a good one though)

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

I'm with you here but I'm not entirely comfortable with you answering a question with a question. That tells me your avoiding the question, something a politician might do.

I asked, "...would one have to be technically "alive" to feel something?" The question isn't what is dead? Dead is dead as in not alive. If one was not alive would they feel something? If no then they are dead. But if they are being tortured in hell for ever and ever then in order to "feel" pain, which would be a result of torture, they would have to be kept alive.

They are no longer folks, just empty bodies.

And they weren't in pain. :o

I'll point you to the same verse I quoted above in Daniel

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

The keyword is awake.

I follow you and agree that the wicked will be raised to judgment. But you keep mentioning that the dead will be burned for ever.

In daniel it says they are raised "to shame and everlasting contempt" not an eternal weenie roast. Who's shame and everlasting contempt will the suffer? Theirs?

Is Jesus your Lord and Savior? I hope so.

Indeed.

I would hope that you know that the word 'men' or 'mankind' is all inclusive. Why did you bring that up like that?

I brought it up like that to show that when it is conveinient for you argument you take scripture "literally" but when it isn't you take scripture as "all inclusive" or symbolically.

I have no idea what you mean by "no one can put out the fire of God, especially the dead" and how it would ever logically fit into the context of the verses given. Your definition seems meaningless.

Sure it does. It is difficult to grasp strange and unique concepts if you've never been exposed to them.

God is described as an all consuming fire. A pillar of flame. Nothing can extinguish His eternal spirit and fire.

I think it means exactly what it says. The part I bolded, which is very clear that they will have no rest forever and ever, and the part right before my bolded section. Those in Hell will be completely cut off from God's Spirit. But for a start... remember who God is.

So you're taking these verses literally. That's fine. So then you agree then that the holy angels and Jesus are in hell watching people burn in torment. That's a lovely picture of the angels and the Lamb that so loved world. Loved it so much now He delights in torture.

What am I missing?

 

[Fnerb]

Yet you seem to suggest God lights the match and starts the fire of the ultimate form of torture and cruelty that never ends and that half-way through "eternity" He flips us over.

The God you serve is a sadist. The God I serve is full of perfect love, patient and merciful to the very end.

Sorry for just jumping in like this, but I have a question regarding this comment. I do believe that our God is love. He does not delight in suffering nor does he wish to see any man condemed. However, God is holy, therefore he must hate sin. If he loves life, he must hate abortion.

Therefore anyone whom does not take heed and run to the risen savior for forgiveness and salvation, justly gets what every sinner deserves - eternal separation from God. Now wheather that is "fire and brimstone" or "constantly being ripped apart over and over again" it still in the end is the worst pain that cannot even be fathomed - complete seperation from a loving God.

[quote:38952]The question is What is dead? There will be those who are dead in their sins; they are dead to Christ.

Our bodies are mortal. But the believer's body will be given life through His Spirit...

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Romans 8:11

The damned will awaken too and be reunited with their bodies. They will not recieve the Spirit of Life, but they will awake into eternity (not a good one though)

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

I asked, "...would one have to be technically "alive" to feel something?" The question isn't what is dead? Dead is dead as in not alive. If one was not alive would they feel something? If no then they are dead. But if they are being tortured in hell for ever and ever then in order to "feel" pain, which would be a result of torture, they would have to be kept alive. [/quote:38952]

What about John 5:28-29? So is the argument that when you die you are just "sleeping" (I think the theological idea is "Soul Sleep") awaiting judgement?

 

[Drew]

I used to believe that hell was a place where unbelievers experienced eternal conscious existence. I now believe it refers to a place where the lost are consumed away to nothing by fire.

That's what fire does. It destroys. It does not preserve its fuel eternally. There are scriptures that liken the fate of the lost to combustible materials. And what happens to such materials when they are "combusted" - they disappear.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

I think this verse tends to support the annihilation view. The lake is described as resulting in a second death. And what is death? Well, unless people decide to change the meaning of the word, it means cessation of life - and this includes mental processes.

Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

I suggest that the only reason people see this text as supporting a fate of eternal conscious existence is that they bring to the text the notion that the process of destruction does not actually destroy - a rather awkward and suspicious interpretation in my opinion.

Now you will object the destruction is described as "everlasting". True enough. However, this is how I understand this verse in the light of other things I believe the Scriptures teach:

1. At death, all (believers and non-believers alike) go to the grave to a state of conscious non-existence.

2. At some time in the future all will be called forth from the grave.

3. For the redeemed, eternal life will follow.

4. For the lost, they will be cast into the lake of fire where they will be destroyed. This destruction can be aptly described as "everlasting" because it will never be reversed not because the process of destruction does not actually destroy. This "everlasting-ness" of their destruction needs to be emphasized by the writer precisely because we know God has the power to raise people from a state of non-existence - this is what He does at the time of the resurrection. So by using the word "everlasting", the finality and permanence of their state of ultimate non-existence is underscored.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Drew]

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:11

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Romans 8:10

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Ephesians 2:1

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. Colossians 2:13

These texts were provided in response to the following:

Have you ever noticed anyone, even once, that was dead feel anything?

I think that 3 of the 4 texts (all but Rom 6:11) clearly describe our legal status with respect to the consequences of sin, namely that we are going to die at some point in the future because of our sin. We are "dead men walking". The key point is that these texts should not be used to argue that "real" death, when it actually occurs, can somehow be understood to involve conscious awareness. We are "dead in our sin" in the sense that our sentence is death.

If Fred is sentenced to death, it is entirely reasonable to describe him as "dead" in this legal sense - hence the term "dead man walking" used as a condemned man (Fred), still alive of course, walks to the execution chamber. The fact that Fred is characterized by this expression as he makes this walk should not be used to argue that death can be a state with conscious existence.

As far as Rom 6:11 is concerned, I think that the phrase "dead to sin" is clearly a way of characterizing the fact that a person in Christ no longer should or need devote any energy at all to engaging in sin. We are "dead to it" in the same way that a successful ex-smoker is dead to the act of smoking.

It would be patently incorrect to argue as follows:

Romans 6:11 is a case where obviously living conscious beings are described as "dead". Therefore, the state we are in after we die physically is a state with conscious existence.

 

[RND]

Sorry for just jumping in like this, but I have a question regarding this comment. I do believe that our God is love. He does not delight in suffering nor does he wish to see any man condemed. However, God is holy, therefore he must hate sin. If he loves life, he must hate abortion.

Therefore anyone whom does not take heed and run to the risen savior for forgiveness and salvation, justly gets what every sinner deserves - eternal separation from God. Now wheather that is "fire and brimstone" or "constantly being ripped apart over and over again" it still in the end is the worst pain that cannot even be fathomed - complete seperation from a loving God.

I have no problem with you jumping in. Welcome to the conversation. I believe "eternal separation" involves emotional pain, not physical. I believe there is "emotional" pain on both sides, the savior as well as those that are lost.

I do not subscribed to the theory that "eternal separation" involves torture for eternity. Separation and thus aniliation. Again, that is not to say that it will be "painless."

What about John 5:28-29? So is the argument that when you die you are just "sleeping" (I think the theological idea is "Soul Sleep") awaiting judgement?

I think John 5:28-29 does a wonders to explain that death is just a repose until resurrection day.

Read Matthew 27:50-53. Where were these that rose at prior to their physical resurrection?

Or Daniel 12:22
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

It seems fairly conclusive from just a few verses that when we die we await resurrection.

Martha knew regarding Lazarus:

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[Vic C.]

There's no question about that. However, do you suppose there is a different between eternal "punishment" and eternal "punishing?"

A big difference, RND. One would mean that people's souls would experience actual, physical punishing forever.

The other would mean that souls may be punished for an indefinite period of time, but the effects of that punishing would be forever.

What's an Urists?

You are being compared to a Universalist. That often happens when one doesn't know the difference between Universal Reconciliation and Annihilation.

Example:

Bubba, if hell isn't something to be feared, then there's no reason to fear the Lord. People can just get away with any atrocity they want and suffer no punishment.

--------------------------------------------
Like I always say, we must start at the beginning to determine a proper doctrine. In this case, we should probably look at these two verses and reconcile them with the whole of scripture.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Enjoy this topic. I do. :-D

 

[jgredline]

Here we go again :-D ....

 

[RND]

A big difference, RND. One would mean that people's souls would experience actual, physical punishing forever.

The other would mean that souls may be punished for an indefinite period of time, but the effects of that punishing would be forever.

Yet, I wonder why people miss these glaring inconsistencies that they themselves hold onto like a long lost baby blankie!

Clearly scripture says eternal life is a gift. Yet people never seem to ask themselves, "Is God in the business of giving out exploding cigars and hand-shakes with electric buzzers on them?" (Gag Gifts)

That's what eternally burning hell would turn out to be and it would make the scriptures a lie. Eternally life, through burning in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity, would be simply a gag gift. A joke.

You are being compared to a Universalist. That often happens when one doesn't know the difference between Universal Reconciliation and Annihilation.

I'm a fairly liberal Seventh-day Adventist when it comes to certain doctrine and a fairly conservative Seventh-day Adventist when it comes to certain other doctrines.

But I can assure you I'm no ecumentical universalist. Do they even walk upright? I always thought is was hard to walk without a spine.

--------------------------------------------
Like I always say, we must start at the beginning to determine a proper doctrine. In this case, we should probably look at these two verses and reconcile them with the whole of scripture.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Enjoy this topic. I do. :-D

I can tell. From what I've seen from some of your posts you eloquently and succinctly speak obvious scriptural truth.

Much appreciated in this day of video game theology.

 

[jgredline]

RND
So do you hold to the monostic view of man?

 

[RND]

RNDSo do you hold to the monostic view of man?

No, nor do I hold the Monastic view either. Of course, have no idea what this question has to do with how many bananas in a bunch, but I gladly play along.

Why do you ask?

 

[jgredline]

RND
Most SDA's hold to monism...The reason for this is because it is the only way that they can make a case for annihilation....Even with that view it falls flat when the scriptures in context are introduced...

Now for those who hold to a dichotomy or trichotomy point of view, they will have an impossible task of proving annihilation...

For those who do hold to annihilation, the real problem they have is that they need to completely ignore the very words of the Messiah Jesus Christ....

 

[Vic C.]

I can tell. From what I've seen from some of your posts you eloquently and succinctly speak obvious scriptural truth.

Thanks, I try. I present what I have learned; that's all I can do. Sometimes I present things that go against the grain of canventional teaching, but it's because I question things in search of the truth. I'm not always right. I disagree often with people, but usually don't go as far as telling they are wrong and I am right either.

Here we go again :-D ....

Hahaha. The reason I like it is because I actually see at times where both positions are well represented; one side with a historical and linguistic presentation and the other side very carefully and literally interpretiong Scripture.

My logic is; I see torment in both positions. I don't like pain, whether it be for one day or eternity. It's a place I would not want myself, my family and friends and everyone else to experience. LOL :o

 

[cyberjosh]

'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment.

Well first of all Sheol (hell) is only an incubation area, the Lake of Fire is seperate from Sheol and the Devil and his angels will be cast there on the last day of judgement.

If we can accept the words quoted from Psalm 16 which prophetically teach that Jesus went to 'sheol' (ie. the grave) when He died, then to be consistent with Bible teaching, we must accept that Peter meant the grave as well when He said that Jesus went to hades when he quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2:27. Any other explanation would have Old Testament teaching contradicting the New Testament. The fact that the New Testament was written in Greek does not mean that we have to use Greek mythology to interpret Scripture. Today we use words like "lunatic", but this does not mean that we accept that somebody's mental health depends on the phases of the Moon.

http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/o ... dgrave.asp

You are correct in all the article said. It means grave, pit, gehenna does indeed refers to the rubbish heap in the valley of hinnom, etc. However let me clarify something about Sheol. Sheol has two distinct parts seperated by the great "chasm" (possibly Tartarous - found once in the NT in Peter): Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) and what we traditionally consider hell (the negative side of the grave/pit - gehenna). The righteous go to Abraham's bosom (Paradise) while the wicked go to the pit or gehenna. Jesus went to Paradise but while he was in Sheol he also visited the spirits in Tartarous that were from before the flood to announce his victory to them, then when he ressurected he took all those in Paradise with Him (He took the captives captive in his train).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[RND]

RNDMost SDA's hold to monism...

Have you done a study or a poll? I've never had anybody ask me this before.

The reason for this is because it is the only way that they can make a case for annihilation....Even with that view it falls flat when the scriptures in context are introduced...

How so?

Monism, as I understand it's meaning: "any of various theories holding that there is only one basic substance or principle as the ground of reality, or that reality consists of a single element" doesn't seem to make much sense to me for the simple fact that we know that all things are made up of various elements.

I would be curious to know how this relates to "annihilation" in your mind.

Now for those who hold to a dichotomy or trichotomy point of view, they will have an impossible task of proving annihilation...

Well, if I understand properly what you're saying here is that SDA's believe that the human being is a "living soul" or a "single" life being, Dichotomy would be body & soul, and trichomomy would be body, soul & spirit.

Following that pattern, even though I obviously disagree with a dichotomy or trichotomy point of view, doesn't necessarily rule out to me the God would be able to destroy any aspect of life as He deemed necessary.

For those who do hold to annihilation, the real problem they have is that they need to completely ignore the very words of the Messiah Jesus Christ....

Really? Which one's?

 

[RND]

The righteous go to Abraham's bosom (Paradise) while the wicked go to the pit or gehenna.

Happy purgatory and sad purgatory! :

Either way, it stems from a very bad interpretaion of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Luke 16:19-31.

Of course, what's cool about this purgatory is that we'll still get to talk to each other!

 

[cyberjosh]

Happy purgatory and sad purgatory! :

Either way, it stems from a very bad interpretaion of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Luke 16:19-31.

Of course, what's cool about this purgatory is that we'll still get to talk to each other!

First off, I don't believe in Purgatory. Moreover my understanding of the division of Sheol is not based solely from the interpretation of Luke, but rather also from Josephus who wrote his Treatise on Hades and explains the Jewish understanding of the division of Sheol in the same manner I just described. I can find a link to a copy of the treatise for you if you like. It is quite short and is very readable.

P.S. The old addage "Misery loves its company" will not be true for those who will burn - the man who spoke to Abraham didn't want his closest friends (nay even his own relatives) to be there with him. Else, boy, don't you think he would like to talk to someone else also?! Man he'd be saying "send them down here, I need some company!" Think about that.


God Bless,

~Josh