Hell; are you sure?

[RND]

First off, I don't believe in Purgatory.

It sure does seem like you do.

Moreover my understanding of the division of Sheol is not based solely from the interpretation of Luke, but rather also from Josephus who wrote his Treatise on Hades and explains the Jewish understanding of the division of Sheol in the same manner I just described. I can find a link to a copy of the treatise for you if you like. It is quite short and is very readable.

Which epistle did Josephus write?

P.S. The old addage "Misery loves its company" will not be true for those who will burn - the man who spoke to Abraham didn't want his closest friends (nay even his own relatives) to be there with him. Else, boy, don't you think he would like to talk to someone else also?! Man he'd be saying "send them down here, I need some company!" Think about that.

Ok, but only briefly. OK, now that I've rejected that thought let me axe you a question.

What do the crumbs that fell from the Richmans table represent?

 

[jgredline]

Here are Jesus Words....

Matt 25 :31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40 And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (αἰώνιος )fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιος ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιος ) life."

 

[RND]

45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιος ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιος ) life." [/color]

Ah yes, I 'm quite familiar with this verse. Punishment that last forever. Does that say what type of "punishment" it is that everlasts? (Isn't that boxing equipment?).

Could this verse be trying to tell us the the punishment will be final and perminent? Does this verse say anything about an "eternal weenie roast?"

 

[Veritas]

OK, let's at least be honest with ourselves and scripture.

The verses you quoted here are referring to being "spiritually" dead to sin and not actually physically dead.

Yes I agree, and you asked:

"Have you ever noticed anyone, even once, that was dead feel anything?"

Your question is worded strangely (is there a typo?). And you didn't specify the physical anyways.

I'll take it from your obvious obfuscation that you've never seen an actual dead body say, "Ouch!"

I have, and they seem empty to me. The person is no longer there.

...I'm not entirely comfortable with you answering a question with a question. That tells me your avoiding the question, something a politician might do.

I asked, "...would one have to be technically "alive" to feel something?" The question isn't what is dead? Dead is dead as in not alive. If one was not alive would they feel something? If no then they are dead. But if they are being tortured in hell for ever and ever then in order to "feel" pain, which would be a result of torture, they would have to be kept alive.

You were able to easily deduct about two deaths given scripture, and you were able to deduct that there is the 'spiritual dead' and the 'physical dead'. I'm suprised you did not deduct that I was discriminating between the two by asking which death you are talking about.

But if you want a completely straight answer to the particular question you've repeated above. No, one does not have to be technically 'alive' to feel something in both the physical and the spiritual sense according to God's word.

We know from the Bible we have souls that leave the body when we die. So even though our physical body is dead, we will have feelings, thoughts, etc.

We know from the Bible that many are spiritually dead right now. Yet they are still walking around with us and are able to feel. We must spread the Good News to them because they are in a horrible state!

They are no longer folks, just empty bodies.

And they weren't in pain

.

'They' aren't 'they' anymore. 'They' has left.

I follow you and agree that the wicked will be raised to judgment. But you keep mentioning that the dead will be burned for ever.

Did I? You might want to look back at my original post. I actually didn't say much at all, just quoted the Bible.

In daniel it says they are raised "to shame and everlasting contempt" not an eternal weenie roast. Who's shame and everlasting contempt will the suffer? Theirs?

You're arguing with Daniel 12:2

Is Jesus your Lord and Savior? I hope so.

Indeed.

Well thank God for that! But, I still believe you are mistaken about Hell

I would hope that you know that the word 'men' or 'mankind' is all inclusive. Why did you bring that up like that?

I brought it up like that to show that when it is conveinient for you argument you take scripture "literally" but when it isn't you take scripture as "all inclusive" or symbolically.

It's not symbolic if that is what it literally means. Use some common sense please.

Women are certainly included by the use of the word 'men'. Just like the following verse:

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all menâ€â€the testimony given in its proper time. 2 Timothy 2:5-6

I have no idea what you mean by "no one can put out the fire of God, especially the dead" and how it would ever logically fit into the context of the verses given. Your definition seems meaningless.

Sure it does. It is difficult to grasp strange and unique concepts if you've never been exposed to them.

God is described as an all consuming fire. A pillar of flame. Nothing can extinguish His eternal spirit and fire.

You are stating true things, but are not applying them in truth to the verses we are looking at.

For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.†Isaiah 66:24

So you're taking these verses literally. That's fine. So then you agree then that the holy angels and Jesus are in hell watching people burn in torment.

I may open a new thread on this. In some mode, yes, I think God, angels, and possibly us could see people burn in torment in hell.

That's a lovely picture of the angels and the Lamb that so loved world. Loved it so much now He delights in torture.

What am I missing?

Missing that God does not delight in torture. Missing that God does not want anyone to go to Hell. I surely don't. The possibilty of me seeing people in Hell is part of what drives me to spread the Good News today.

 

[jgredline]

Ah yes, I 'm quite familiar with this verse. Punishment that last forever. Does that say what type of "punishment" it is that everlasts? (Isn't that boxing equipment?).

Could this verse be trying to tell us the the punishment will be final and perminent? Does this verse say anything about an "eternal weenie roast?"

This section of scripture uses the exact same greek word (αἰώνιος ) This word means 1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be. 2 without beginning. 3 without end, never to cease,

So the next questions that comes up is where does this everlasting punishment take place? Jesus tells us that also…
This next section od scripture describes the Judgment of the Nations, which is to be distinguished from the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The Judgment Seat of Christ, a time of review and reward for believers only, takes place after the Rapture (Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:11–15; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10). The Judgment of the Great White Throne takes place in eternity, after the Millennium. The wicked dead will be judged and consigned to the Lake of Fire

Rev. 20:11–15. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So the next question that comes up is what is eternal punishment…
Lets take a look at what this passage says in the Greek…..
Here is Matt 25:46
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

The Greek word for Punishment is (κόλασις) This word simply means Torment…
Now what is torment. Well, I would say being cast into the lake of fire is torment.
Certainly torment would not be anything les that what Jesus went through on his way to the cross… None the less it is for ''ALL ETERNITY''

Further more.... First, the kingdom is said to have been prepared for the righteous from the foundation of the world , where hell was prepared for the devil and his angels ...

God’s desire is that men should be blessed; hell was not originally intended for the human race. But if people willfully refuse life, they choose eternal torment…In closing I feel I need to mention this again…

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of eternal (same word as â€Âeverlastingâ€Â) fire (v. 41), eternal punishment (v. 46), and eternal life (v. 46). The same One who taught eternal life taught eternal punishment (eternal torment). Since the same word for eternal is used to describe each, it is inconsistent to accept one without the other. If the word translated eternal does not mean everlasting, there is no word in the Greek language to convey the meaning. But we know that it does mean everlasting because it is used to describe the eternality of God (1 Tim. 1:17).

 

[RND]

Your question is worded strangely (is there a typo?). And you didn't specify the physical anyways.

Did I need too? Let's try to be honest with what is said and what is meant. Dead bodies don't feel pain because they are dead. Living souls, whether spiritually dead or not, still feel pain.

My point was obvious that the state of being physically dead doesn't not related to feeling physical pain.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I have, and they seem empty to me. The person is no longer there.

The "living dead." I think it's obvious I was not addressing such.

We know from the Bible we have souls that leave the body when we die. So even though our physical body is dead, we will have feelings, thoughts, etc.

According to scripture the dead know nothing. That would mean their feelings as well.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

'They' aren't 'they' anymore. 'They' has left.

They haven't gone anywhere.

Did I? You might want to look back at my original post. I actually didn't say much at all, just quoted the Bible.

I might suggest you misquoted the Bible in that case. Clearly they Bible says nothing about burning for ever.

You're arguing with Daniel 12:2

No I asked you a question that you didn't answer:

Who's shame and everlasting contempt will they suffer? Theirs? Daniel 12:2 doesn't say anything about buring for ever.

You are stating true things, but are not applying them in truth to the verses we are looking at.

For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.†Isaiah 66:24

So what this verse is saying is that worms are eternal. It's the worm that doesn't die! :D So if it is symbolic that "worm does not die" why wouldn't be sysmbolic that the "fire is not quenched?"

I may open a new thread on this. In some mode, yes, I think God, angels, and possibly us could see people burn in torment in hell.

Then how does a thought like that sqaure with a verse like this:

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This tells me that we won't be watching loved ones burn for ever.

Missing that God does not delight in torture. Missing that God does not want anyone to go to Hell. I surely don't.

No I got that. I'm confident God does not enjoy nor engage in toture.

The possibilty of me seeing people in Hell is part of what drives me to spread the Good News today.

How would Heaven be 'paradise' and 'eternal bliss' if you got to see people being tortured?

 

[Drew]

About unquenchable fires and worms that do not die....

What do we really mean when we say a fire is unquenchable in normal everyday life. Do we mean that it will never go out?

No we do not.

We mean that it cannot be put out until it has consumed its fuel.

When we watch a refinery on fire on TV and declare "Wow that fire is unquenchable", are we mis-speaking because we (obviously) know the fire will eventually stop burning? Of course not. Unquenchable does not mean "never-ending". We do not use the word this way in common speech and I see no reason to do so when we read the Scriptures.

I believe that the use of various metaphors to physical processes of combustion (fire) and decomposition (worms) are well chosen. I believe that the Scripture writers were making it clear that, just like the real world version of these processes, the versions that apply to the lost indeed result in their ultimate annihilation.

Fires consume their fuel into nothingness.

Worms consume a body in such a way that there is "nothing left" when they are done. A worm that does not die is a worm that does not stop until it finishes its job of annihilation. Just like fire.

It is entirely reasonable to interpret such texts in this way. What seems a lot more forced and unreasonable is to argue that well-known physical processes that act to destroy something are to be understood, when used in reference to the lost, as strangely doing the precise opposite - preserving them forever.

 

[Drew]

Here is Psalm 146:3,4 in the NASB;

Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

For those of you who believe that conscious existence never ceases - one goes "somewhere" in a conscious state at the moment of physical death - how do make sense of the claim that a man's "thoughts perish" at the point of his death?

 

[jgredline]

Don't put God in a box
Don't forget there are two Greek words for destroyed while there is only one english word....

 

[guibox]

It is entirely reasonable to interpret such texts in this way. What seems a lot more forced and unreasonable is to argue that well-known physical processes that act to destroy something are to be understood, when used in reference to the lost, as strangely doing the precise opposite - preserving them forever.

And there is no doubt that this is the way these terms are to be interpreted when Jeremiah 17:27 uses 'unquenchable fire' in this manner. However, most would rather ignore it to follow their own teaching regardless. Then they have the gall to call biblical theology 'false' when it is clear as day and not metaphorical or an isolated passage.

That is quite serious.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2Th 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 12:18-21 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: ... And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[Bubba]

The translation of Matthew 25:46 and the word "eternal", is he right, have we been duped? Bubba



Distortion in Translation

People insist upon the doctrine of "eternal punishment" because the King James Bible (and others influenced by it) associate the word eternal with punishment and destruction. God raised up scholars to give us concordances, lexicons, and both Greek and Hebrew word studies, because no translation is perfectly true to the original manuscripts. The Christian’s surest guide to truth is the Holy Spirit who Jesus said will "teach you all things" (Jn.14:26). The King James Bible translated the Greek noun "aion" and its adjectival form "aionios" variously as world, age, eternal, and everlasting. One word should not be translated to have so many separate meanings when there are specific Greek words with these meanings. World means the material earth on which man lives, and is properly translated in "the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world [kosmos] are clearly seen" (Rom.1:20). Age means an indeterminable period of time which has a beginning and an end, and is properly translated in "the mystery which hath been hid from ages [aion] and from generations"(Col.1:16). Eternal means that which is perpetual, with no beginning and no end, as is properly rendered in "His eternal [aidios] power and Godhead" (Rom.1:20). Please note the Greek word "aidios" which actually means eternal. But "aidios" is never found in relation to punishment of unbelievers.

Some would suggest that the Greek form in which the adjective "aionios" is used allows for the translation "eternal". The most basic laws of grammar prohibit this. A word derived from a parent word cannot have a meaning greater than or different from the parent word. The meaning of the adjective form of a word depends upon and corresponds to the meaning of the noun from which it is derived. As an example, a daily (adjective) paper comes every day (noun) not monthly or hourly.

A reasonable objection may well be "why didn’t the King James translators translate "aionios" to be age instead of eternal? Or why does the commonly accepted Vines’s expository dictionary (V.E.D) insist that "aionos" means eternal? The beloved brethren who have given themselves to these scholarly pursuits are to be honored, but they, like us, are subject to seeing "through a glass, darkly" (1Cor:13:12). V.E.D. for example, states that the gift of tongues ceased after apostolic times and that both the gifts of knowledge and prophecy are unnecessary since the Holy scriptures are sufficient for guidance, instruction and edification. Mr. Vine’s viewpoint is typical of the "fundamentalist" school of theology, which for all practical purposes eliminates the need and expectancy of God’s people to hear directly from Him. To the many who have come into the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and today comprise the Pentecostal and charismatic segment of the church, V.E.D. is obviously biased. The gifts of the Holy Spirit did not terminate with the early apostle, but are to be just as much in evidence today. The same kind of prejudice is perpetuated with the doctrine of "eternal punishment." Numerous Greek scholars have sought to bring correction. A sampling of some of their works follows:

Young’s Analytical concordance to the Bible, by Robert Young, LL.D.; Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Young’s Literal translation of the Holy Bible, by Robert Young, LL.D.;Baker House.

Greek English Concordance, by J.B. Smith; Herald Press.

The Emphasized Bible, by J.B. Rotherham;Kregel Publications.

Concordant Literal New Testament, by the Concordant Publishing Concern.

The Word "Aion"

The word "aion" means age or that which pertains to the ages. Ages have beginnings and endings. Their duration’s are for indefinite periods of time. There is no time element to eternity and therefore the word is eternal is totally inappropriate translation. God made the aions: "by whom also He made the worlds [aions]" (Heb.1:2). God is called the God of the aions or the "ever-lasting [aionial] God" (Rom.16:26). There was a time before the aions: "according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world [aionios] began" (2Tim.1:9). We live in the present aion: "Who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world [aion]" (Matt.13:39). There is an age after this aion: "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [aion], neither in the world [aion] to come. (Matt.13:32).

There are aions to look forward to: "that in the ages [aions] to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph.2:7). Jesus reigns to the aion of the aion: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever [to the aion of the aion]" (Heb.1:8). At the end of this age: "then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father…then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all" (ICor.15:24,28).

During this time of the aions, Christians have aionial life (Jn.3:16) aionial salvation (Heb.5:9) and an aionial inheritance (Heb.9:15). Presently, Christians have been "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:14-15). There will come a day when Christians no longer have just the earnest, but will receive the full inheritance of true eternal life which is when God becomes "all in all" (1Cor.15:28). In the meantime, there will continue aionial judgment (Heb.6:2) aionial condemnation (Mk.3:29), aionial fire (Matt.25:41) and aionial punishment (Matt.24:26).

Lee Salisbury

 

[Lewis]

Need more be said ? These are the Words of Jesus' giving us a truth.

Luke 16:22-31

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[guibox]

Dr. R. F. Weymouth (1822-1902) was the headmaster of Mill Hill School and translator of New Testament in Modern Speech. He was a well respected scholar and Greek translator (and look Ma, no 'cultic' association whatsoever!)

Here's what he had to say about the language used to denote annihilation that so many twist around to mean the exact opposite.

"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean `maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence.' To translate black as white is nothing to this."

Again, the false belief of eternal torment is based on the erroneous belief that the wicked man has an immortal soul (even though the bible makes it pretty clear that the whole of man (body and life) is raised and punished and not some immaterial entity. Something the traditionalist seems to conveniently ignore and can't explain away.

 

[guibox]

Need more be said ? These are the Words of Jesus' giving us a truth.

Luke 16:22-31

Really? Jesus also says on the mountain of Sinai "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy'. He also tells the Pharisees, 'It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath'

Are you a seventh day sabbath keeper? You should be if 'the words of Jesus' as you read them are to be taken as gospel.

However, you will find whatever text you can to 'explain it away' and show that Sunday is the new day or that the Sabbath was for the Jews.

In other words, you try to find texts that explain or clarify and you do not indeed take the words at face value as you expect us to do with Luke 16.

- A highly metaphorical passage,

- a passage that contradicts clear teaching on the state of the dead elsewhere in the Bible,

- a passage that has NO biblical support for the concepts mentioned inside

- a passage that is smack dab in the middle of numerous other parables

Okay, Lewis. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. Elitist thinking usually makes people follow their own rule of hermenutics without applying the same rules to your own study.

 

[Vic C.]

Bubba,

I am well acquainted with all that from my word studies and debates with Universalists. I too agree that in almost all cases age or ages is the correct interpretation.

But...

What do you know about Lee Salisbury? Did he write this before his apostasia? Did he too write what he did based on his own agenda and motives? Also, while I trust Young and his translation, I have to point out that the Rotherham and Concordant Bibles are translated with a UR bend. That is why you will almost always "see" the URs using them.

Peace,
Vic

 

[Vic C.]

Really? Jesus also says on the mountain of Sinai "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy'. He also tells the Pharisees, 'It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath'

Are you a seventh day sabbath keeper? You should be if 'the words of Jesus' as you read them are to be taken as gospel.

However, you will find whatever text you can to 'explain it away' and show that Sunday is the new day or that the Sabbath was for the Jews.

In other words, you try to find texts that explain or clarify and you do not indeed take the words at face value as you expect us to do with Luke 16....

In defense of Lewis, he did say this in the Sabbath thread:

One thing is for sure' I and others here have had this conversation many times before. But I never get tired of this one' for some reason. The Catholics did this with the Sunday Law edict in 321 if I can remember right. And another thing Jesus still did the temple thing on Saturday. And God did not give a command to change the Sabbath.

Again, in his defense, maybe he didn't see my post on the origin of the Rich man and Lazarus parable. I know Lewis to be a fairly rational person, willing to explore and discuss issues in search of truth. But... just like the rest of us, he is adamant about certain beliefs and won't budge.

 

[jgredline]

Bubba,

I have to point out that the Rotherham and Concordant Bibles are translated with a UR bend. That is why you will almost always "see" the URs using them.

Peace,
Vic

Very true....


Guibox...Your wrong and I for one do not appreciate you calling Jesus a Liar....
It amazes me how you will put the words of man and a women above those of the Lord Jesus Christ....

 

[Rick W]

Dr. R. F. Weymouth (1822-1902) was the headmaster of Mill Hill School and translator of New Testament in Modern Speech. He was a well respected scholar and Greek translator (and look Ma, no 'cultic' association whatsoever!)

Here's what he had to say about the language used to denote annihilation that so many twist around to mean the exact opposite.

"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean `maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence.' To translate black as white is nothing to this."

Again, the false belief of eternal torment is based on the erroneous belief that the wicked man has an immortal soul (even though the bible makes it pretty clear that the whole of man (body and life) is raised and punished and not some immaterial entity. Something the traditionalist seems to conveniently ignore and can't explain away.

What is meant by "not some immaterial entity"? It appears that's not acknowledging a spirit of man but is focusing instead on "body and life"?

"Immaterial entity" would be the spirit?

He's talking about the body.

 

[guibox]

Guibox...Your wrong and I for one do not appreciate you calling Jesus a Liar....
It amazes me how you will put the words of man and a women above those of the Lord Jesus Christ....

Oh, jg, get over it please. I'm not calling Christ a liar. The gospel according to the interpretation of jgredline is not necessarily the gospel of Christ. Sanctimoniousness will get you nowhere and for everytime you say I am calling Christ a liar, you not only call Christ a liar in other places, but also Paul, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Peter, Matthew Mark and Luke.

By ignoring the clear contradictions you are creating you are not only calling all of these greats liars, but you are putting your own interpretation in place of the scriptures and calling it 'truth' while condemning others who do follow the word as 'followers of lies' and 'followers of the devil'

This is very serious, jg. Instead of pointing fingers because others don't follow your brand of truth, point them back at yourself and ask if Pharisaism is ruling your life instead of the love and gospel of Christ.

What is meant by "not some immaterial entity"? It appears that's not acknowledging a spirit of man but is focusing instead on "body and life"?

"Immaterial entity" would be the spirit?

He's talking about the body.

Ah yes, the old 'talking about the body' argument. I await you to prove that when the bible says that man will be 'destroyed' face 'destruction' 'be devoured' and 'consume away into smoke' that it speaks only of the body. This is a funny decision considering that everyone tries to say that when the bible says 'destroy', it means 'eternal torment'

Make up your mind, Potluck. Either it speaks of the whole man and means eternal torment or destroy means exactly that.

Weymouth was not speaking of the body.

Here is more from Weymouth:

"By `perish' the Apostle here apparently means `pass out of existence'." [7800]

On Hebrews 9:28 we read:


"The use in the N.T. of such words as `death', `destruction', `fire', `perish', to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably bad." [Ibid., 7800]

On Revelation 14:11:


"There is nothing in this verse that necessarily implies an eternity of suffering. In a similar way the word `punishment' or `correction' in Matthew 25:46 gives itself no indication of time."

On Revelation 20:10:


"The Lake of fire implying awful pain and complete, irremediable ruin and destruction."

Enough said.