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Hell; are you sure?

Hi,

I am certain of a few things in which I know God wills for me to place my faith:

1. Jesus Christ - Savior of all men
2. God the Father - wills for all men to be saved
3. God the Holy Spirit - God is Spirit

My faith in God in 3 Persons, blessed Trinity, states that:
1. God is all loving
2. God is all-powerful
3. The cross is all-atoning

How does any of this "translate" into any sort of faith in eternal torment?

Ans. Doesn't.

If God doesn't will for everyone to be saved, the death of Jesus Christ wasn't enough for all men to be saved, or God doesn't care enough or isn't powerful enough to save all men... hell is eternal.

Since God is all that and more... and the Bible in original language doesn't say "eternal" but rather "temporary" (age-limited duration) in relation to hell....

why would a person place their faith in hell's power rather than Jesus Christ?

How can anyone argue biblically that hell is more powerful than the will of God, the power of God, and the blood of Jesus... and think they are standing on a foundation that will last the test of time?

That's not the bible. That's man's interpretation via errant translation.

God bless,
 
Re: Re:

Drew,

I actually agree with you. I believe the fire will go out after all sin has been destroyed (which may or may not take too long). I was just throwing another angle in in that people were already dead when thrown into the burning garbage dump that is Gehenna. I was just thinking that it could be that it will be the same at the end of time after the judgement. People may already be dead when thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Rad.
Rev.20: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Please see above scripture the dead who are not saved come to life. Scripture does not support them being raised from the dead... and thrown into the lake of fire any way but alive (bodily), imo.

What scripture do you use to support that they were not raised to life?

They are thrown alive into the lake of fire - still spiritually dead - and the lake of fire destroys death.

They are either annihilated... or they are redeemed.

Scripture states that Jesus Christ paid the ransom for all men.

Their ransom has been paid.

The argument that they are both annihilated in the body and according to the sinful nature... and redeemed in Christ because the ransom was paid for them... stands scripturally sound on all points, imo.

It's exactly how we were saved.

God bless,
 
Universal Reconciliation is expressly forbidden in all but the Debate Forum. See here for reason why:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24945

If one or two believers in UR want to debate a coupe of other members on this topic, please use the Debate Forum.

Thanks.
 
Heidi said:
Bubba said:
Heidi,
We can't always agree on everything. The article I quoted from has as it's main focus the word "hell", but I am sure your points will be address. I found it interesting that the KJV quotes in the N.T. the word hell 10 times for hades and only once for grave, where as the NAS quote the word hades 10 times for grave and once for hell and I believe that was in regards to the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4). Guess what version most use to support eternal punishment? Yep, KJV.

Grace, Bubba

There are too many places where the bible talks about eternal punishment to dismiss it. Only Urists claim that there is no etrnal punishment because it is definitely what itching ears want to hear!

In addition, the OT refers to eternal puishment all over the place, especially in the Psalms and proverbs. So there is no getting around eternal punishment. If one doesn't believe scripture on that, then one must throw away the bible altogether and not believe anything it says. The word of God is not something to be played with or changed. Funny how Satan entices us to do that with the bible more than any other book. I wonder why. ;-)
Nowhere in the original languages does it speak of eternal suffering. The word used for eternal or forever is aionios. This word actually means age and is the root of our word eon. Forever and ever should be translated age of ages. Eternal should be age abiding. Etc. etc.
 
waitinontheLamb said:
Nowhere in the original languages does it speak of eternal suffering. The word used for eternal or forever is aionios. This word actually means age and is the root of our word eon. Forever and ever should be translated age of ages. Eternal should be age abiding. Etc. etc.

Actually, wiotl, there is no reason not to translate 'aionios' as 'eternal' here because this verse is contrasting two different destinies and states. It is the punsihment that is eternal, not the punishing. As the reward of life for the righteous is eternal, so also the punishment of death for the wicked is eternal.

The problem with tradition is making this 'punishment', 'suffering conscious torment in hell'. The ultimate punishment is 'death' according to Romans 6:23, Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 7, Psalms 37:20 and many other texts of annihilation. The fires at the end of time are merely a means to an end.
 
What is hell, and where are the dead now?

Every soul (both good and evil) goes immediately back to the Father (God) that gave them: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." [Eccl 12:7].

For judgment day does not occur till after the thousand year period (millennium) in [Rev 20:4+5]. God is totally fair, and plays no favorites. It would be unfair to send someone to hell without judging them first. Though some are hell bound, it is not yet time for their punishment, many of the lost will be found during that thousand year period.

I won't include it here, but read the story of Lazarus and the rich man [Lk 16:19-31] and you will see that after they died, the rich man was across a gulf, separated from the side that Lazarus was on with Abraham. But they were both in Heaven. Heaven is simply wherever God is.

In the end, all will be judged at the same time [Rev 20:12-15] and for the righteous, Judgment Day is a day of rewards, but for those who did not overcome, Judgment Day is a day to be blotted out from existence, as though they had never existed, we who overcome will retain no memory of them. You will notice that they will be cast into the lake of fire and then "there was no more sea." [Rev 21:1]. The lake of fire and all within it cease to exist.

Rev 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

CHAPTER 21

Rev 21:1
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (KJV)

Contrary to popular misconception; there is no eternal torture chamber called hell where Almighty God enjoys the eternal pain and suffering of His disobedient children. He loves us all, but some will forfeit the right to live eternally with God. This is the 'torment for ever and ever' spoken of, for they will never ever be again, and the torment is them knowing prior to execution of judgment that they will forever be separated from God and denied eternal life in Heaven. For at the time of Judgment day, we will all be in spiritual bodies and we will be able to see the beauty and majesty of the throne of God. We will all have full knowledge of God's plan and the three earth ages, it is then that many will realize what they had thrown away for 60 or so years of living deliciously on earth in the flesh.

What we commonly refer to as hell, is really the blotting out of our soul forever. So complete will this blotting out be that even all memory of the existence of those so judged will cease to exist - as though they had never existed - for in reality, they will have never have been. Think about the thousand year millennium and then that protracted march into the Lake of Fire, they will know that they are going into oblivion.

Now on this earth, with all the pain and suffering that some experience, being blotted out may not seem so terrible. But remember, at the time of judgment and the march into the fire, they will be in spiritual bodies having full knowledge that they are dying the second death - the death of a soul.

What they wouldn't do for a second chance, but there isn't any more chances for them - this is the saddest of sorrows. So sorrowful will it be that our small flesh brains cannot even begin to comprehend the horror of it. This, my friend, will be the truest hell there is.

Satan knows that is to be his fate, that is his torment. One of satan's many names is "the son of perdition," He is the only soul named at this time who has been judged to eternal death, and the word "perdition" means just that: To perish, cease to exist, become blotted out. It does not mean to be kept alive forever by God so that torture may be preformed upon him eternally. Our God is a loving Father, not a Nazi war criminal. Below is satan's fall and judgment. Satan was once one of God's favorites, but then he thought that he should be God and he led a revolt and overthrow attempt against God in the first earth age. One third of the souls at that time joined satan in that revolt, and God gave us this second earth age (in the flesh) to make our choice for ever. In verse 18 below you see a description of the blotting out. It is a total consumption by fire from within, it is final, and for satan it is set and shall be carried out at the appointed time. We still have time to make the right choice. God is not playing games here!

Ezek 28:11-19 (king of Tyrus is one of satan's many many names)
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)


It would seem that the clergy either don't understand that themselves, or that they have twisted the scriptures in an effort to control the people - God knows. Maybe they felt that if the people knew that to be judged to eternal death means to cease to exist that they would have no fear to do evil, perhaps they are right about people living for today and not caring about eternity, but what they fail to comprehend is that at the time of judgment, we will all possess total knowledge, knowledge even of the first earth age when we all were with God before satan's overthrow, and a clear sight into the eternity of peace, love , and happiness with God as our Father, whom we can see, touch, and speak to forever and ever.

Rev 21:1-7 (This is what we commonly refer to as Heaven)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (KJV)

Continuing further on:

Rev 22:1-7
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (KJV
 
guibox said:
waitinontheLamb said:
Nowhere in the original languages does it speak of eternal suffering. The word used for eternal or forever is aionios. This word actually means age and is the root of our word eon. Forever and ever should be translated age of ages. Eternal should be age abiding. Etc. etc.

Actually, wiotl, there is no reason not to translate 'aionios' as 'eternal' here because this verse is contrasting two different destinies and states. It is the punsihment that is eternal, not the punishing. As the reward of life for the righteous is eternal, so also the punishment of death for the wicked is eternal.

The problem with tradition is making this 'punishment', 'suffering conscious torment in hell'. The ultimate punishment is 'death' according to Romans 6:23, Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 2:6, Jude 7, Psalms 37:20 and many other texts of annihilation. The fires at the end of time are merely a means to an end.
There is actually a great reason to translate this word "age." The reason would be that this is the only true meaning of the word. It is faulty translation to call it anything other then this. It is high time we start following the true Word of God, not men's translations when they are in opposition to the clear meaning of God. We tend to insert our theology into the text instead of letting God tell us His meaning through the texts.

While I would certainly agree that even annhilism is much more fitting the God I serve, it still falls short of the revealed will and plan for Christ coming here. He came to be Savior of the WORLD, and anything short means He failed. That is certainly not something I care to attribute to the God who is all in all.
 
The problem wotl, is that to make this verse speak of 'age lasting' punishment makes no sense. You are basing this on the assumption that 'everlasting punishment' means 'being tormented for an age, then to be completed'.

However, the punishment is not torment in fires but eternal death. Hence, making 'aionios' here mean 'age lasting' makes no sense. 'aionios' CAN be used to mean 'eternal' but it's meaning is derived from that which it applies to. The righteous receive 'aoinios life' which is indeed eternal for they are bestowed with immortality at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). However, the wicked are not immortal and hence even if the punishment WERE 'torment in fires' it would not last forever.

However, aionios is speaking of two STATES not two ACTIONS. The punishment for mortal humans is death and it WILL indeed be 'aionios - eternal' just as the contrast is 'aionios-life' for the righteous is eternal.

the problem with tradition is making this punishment 'eternal torment in the fires of hell'. The bible makes it clear that this brings on the 'second death' and that the 'death', not the 'torment in fires' is the ultimate punishment.
 
guibox,

What is the 'first death' and what happens to it?
 
Re:

jgredline said:
This is my own work, not a copy and paste.


Matt 25 :31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40 And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (αἰÎνιο )fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰÎνιο ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰÎνιο ) life."

This section of scripture uses the exact same greek word (αἰÎνιο ) This word means 1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be. 2 without beginning. 3 without end, never to cease,

So the next questions that comes up is where does this everlasting punishment take place? Jesus tells us that also…
This next section od scripture describes the Judgment of the Nations, which is to be distinguished from the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The Judgment Seat of Christ, a time of review and reward for believers only, takes place after the Rapture (Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:11–15; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10). The Judgment of the Great White Throne takes place in eternity, after the Millennium. The wicked dead will be judged and consigned to the Lake of Fire

Rev. 20:11–15. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So the next question that comes up is what is eternal punishment…
Lets take a look at what this passage says in the Greek…..
Here is Matt 25:46
και αÀελεÅÃονÄαι οÅÄοι ει κολαÃιν αιÉνιον οι δε δικαιοι ει ζÉην αιÉνιον

The Greek word for Punishment is (κÌλαÃιÂ) This word simply means Torment…
Now what is torment. Well, I would say being cast into the lake of fire is torment.
Certainly torment would not be anything les that what Jesus went through on his way to the cross… None the less it is for ''ALL ETERNITY''

Further more.... First, the kingdom is said to have been prepared for the righteous from the foundation of the world , where hell was prepared for the devil and his angels ...

God’s desire is that men should be blessed; hell was not originally intended for the human race. But if people willfully refuse life, they choose eternal torment…In closing I feel I need to mention this again…

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of eternal (same word as â€Âeverlastingâ€Â) fire (v. 41), eternal punishment (v. 46), and eternal life (v. 46). The same One who taught eternal life taught eternal punishment (eternal torment). Since the same word for eternal is used to describe each, it is inconsistent to accept one without the other. If the word translated eternal does not mean everlasting, there is no word in the Greek language to convey the meaning. But we know that it does mean everlasting because it is used to describe the eternality of God (1 Tim. 1:17).

So is it eternal torment or eternal destruction? Wasn't there supposed to be some lake of fire around the New Jerusalem in which unbelievers were tormented or in which their burned remains were so that on-lookers would be terrified at their punishment? What about the symbolism with Gehenna - the place where garbage was burned? Is a man's soul eternal or created? If created then why would God keep alive the wicked for eternity?

Is there some predetermined amount of human souls waiting to be born into flesh? Is God powerful enough to destroy these souls or not? Are they truly eternal then without God's consent?
 
Free said:
guibox,

What is the 'first death' and what happens to it?

The 'first death' is that which we all face. The death where according to the scriptures, we 'sleep' in the grave, there is no consciousness and we await the second coming.

Notice the wording in Revelation 20:

"blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection, as such, the second death has no power over him"

Notice that John links the death having no power' to 'those that have been resurrected'

Why does it have no power? What happens in the resurrection?

"So when this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, then shall be brought to pass the saying 'death is swallowed up in victory! Death where is thy sting?" 1 Corinthians 15:54

The 'second death' has no power because the righteous have immortality. They will live forever and thus cannot 'die' again. That would mean that those who recieve the second death ARE mortal, not eternal and the 'second death' has power over them. They will die for eternity where the righteous will live for eternity.

Romans 6:23
John 5:28-29

Trying to make the 'second death' completely DIFFERENT from the first and to make the 'second death' mean 'eternal, conscious torment in the lake of fire' is completely ridiculous and negates the entire scope of resurrection to salvation and eternal life as a gift from God.
 
guibox said:
Notice the wording in Revelation 20:

"blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection, as such, the second death has no power over him"
Firstly, the first resurrection is not a resurrection of all believers, only some:

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

John's comments in verse 6 become quite interesting knowing that "the rest of the dead" don't get resurrected until after the 1000 years -- this would include some believers.

guibox said:
Notice that John links the death having no power' to 'those that have been resurrected'

Why does it have no power? What happens in the resurrection?

"So when this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, then shall be brought to pass the saying 'death is swallowed up in victory! Death where is thy sting?" 1 Corinthians 15:54
You must clarify if you are making this claim regarding the first resurrection or the second, general resurrection. Otherwise one could conclude, based on what you've given so far, that the unrighteous will put on immortality since they will be resurrected.

Which brings me to another point: Why would God resurrect the unrighteous dead only to throw them into the lake of fire if they cease to exist at that point? Where is the logic in that?

guibox said:
The 'second death' has no power because the righteous have immortality. They will live forever and thus cannot 'die' again. That would mean that those who recieve the second death ARE mortal, not eternal and the 'second death' has power over them. They will die for eternity where the righteous will live for eternity.
You will have to clarify some of your arguments before I can answer. Although, I will say, and you've known me to argue this before, that ceasing to exist is not punishment, it is merely cessation. Jesus makes some extremely strong statements regarding hell which are all utterly pointless if at the first death we merely "sleep" and at the second death the unrighteous are forever destroyed.

guibox said:
Trying to make the 'second death' completely DIFFERENT from the first and to make the 'second death' mean 'eternal, conscious torment in the lake of fire' is completely ridiculous and negates the entire scope of resurrection to salvation and eternal life as a gift from God.
I just cannot help but notice that the first death, physical death, is thrown into the lake of fire. I also cannot help but notice that "the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).

Even if you argue that the Greek behind "forever and ever" doesn't really mean "forever and ever", the point is made that they are not destroyed upon being thrown into the lake of fire, they are at least around for a period of time, in torment.

So, yes, it would seem that the first and second deaths differ in some important aspects.
 
Free, you must be careful in reading Revelation 20 as it is not a chronological stating of events.

When vs 5 says 'And the rest of the dead lived not again until the end of the 1000, this is the first resurrection' it is not speaking of the preceding part of the verse but verse 4. If it were, then it would not be the first resurrection but a second resurrection. However, the rest of Revelation 20 speaks of this as a second resurrection.

The first resurrection is that which is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15. The 'rest of the dead lived not until the end of the 1000 years' is the second resurrection, not the first.

When John 5:28-29 says, 'And those that are in the graves shall come forth. Some to everlasting life, others to everlasting damnation', it is speaking of the resurrection of the righteous in 1 Corinthians 15 and the resurrection of the wicked in Revelation 20.

Do not read suppositions and make it more complex then it is.
 
guibox said:
Free, you must be careful in reading Revelation 20 as it is not a chronological stating of events.
Actually, it is.

guibox said:
When vs 5 says 'And the rest of the dead lived not again until the end of the 1000, this is the first resurrection' it is not speaking of the preceding part of the verse but verse 4.
I know, that was my point.

guibox said:
If it were, then it would not be the first resurrection but a second resurrection. However, the rest of Revelation 20 speaks of this as a second resurrection.
The second resurrection is what is in view at the start of verse 5 - "the rest of the dead".

guibox said:
The first resurrection is that which is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15. The 'rest of the dead lived not until the end of the 1000 years' is the second resurrection, not the first.

When John 5:28-29 says, 'And those that are in the graves shall come forth. Some to everlasting life, others to everlasting damnation', it is speaking of the resurrection of the righteous in 1 Corinthians 15 and the resurrection of the wicked in Revelation 20.

Do not read suppositions and make it more complex then it is.
I think you completely missed the point of my post - it appears from Rev. 20 that not all believers are included in the first resurrection. Rev. 20:4 gives some fairly specific criteria which will determine who takes part in the first resurrection. The point being that being resurrected in itself does not make one immortal, as your previous post seemed to be saying. You need to clarify your previous post.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Do you think that verse 15 makes sense if these people no longer exist?
 
The Bible states that there are two resurrections, contrasted against the others
"the resurrection of the just and the unjust"

Revelation 20 is the resurrection of the unjust, not some of the righteous.

1 Corinthians 15makes it plain that the 'dead in Christ' will rise first. Then we are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord'.

The dead in Christ are changed and given immortality. This all occurs for all believers at the first resurrection.

Verses 3-4 merely state that the righteous who have already been resurrected are reigning with Christ. This is the fruits of 1 Corinthians 15. verse 5 merely sums up what has happened to the righteous. They were resurrected and are now with Christ during the 1000 years.

The wicked are resurrected to face judgment. See, when you don't believe that the wicked go straight to a fiery torment at death, than you realize the necessity for a judgment that shows them where they went wrong. Do you not think that even if they were not destroyed but cast immortal into the lake of fire, that it still seems strange to resurrect them from a hell that they were already in, just to throw them back in?
 
guibox said:
The dead in Christ are changed and given immortality. This all occurs for all believers at the first resurrection.

Verses 3-4 merely state that the righteous who have already been resurrected are reigning with Christ. This is the fruits of 1 Corinthians 15. verse 5 merely sums up what has happened to the righteous. They were resurrected and are now with Christ during the 1000 years.
No. The "first" resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20:4 is clearly not that of 1 Cor. 15.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This does not describe every believer.

guibox said:
See, when you don't believe that the wicked go straight to a fiery torment at death, than you realize the necessity for a judgment that shows them where they went wrong.
That in no way necessitates a judgment to show them where they went wrong. If they are then again made dead the judgment is useless and they should have just remained dead.

This leads precisely to a point I made earlier: cessation of life is not punishment. If the unrighteous dead are merely annihilated, then all of Christ's warnings about hell are utterly pointless. Shall I post some of Christ's warnings of hell?

To go along with this is an argument I used in another thread regarding the existence of an immaterial soul:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Please tell me when these beatings will occur. And not only that, seeing that there are different levels of punishment, how does that fit with your doctrine of annihilation which means that all would receive the same level of punishment?

Mat 24:48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,'
Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,
Mat 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know
Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

When does this occur? When and where will there be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

And to support those passages I will repeat a point from my previous post:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Do you think that verse 15 makes sense if these people no longer exist?

guibox said:
Do you not think that even if they were not destroyed but cast immortal into the lake of fire, that it still seems strange to resurrect them from a hell that they were already in, just to throw them back in?
And this is why I have stated many times in these forums that it is necessary to look at the meanings of the Greek words behind the English translation "hell". This is a translational error that really should be discontinued. There are three different Greek words translated as hell and all three mean something different.

This makes perfect sense when one accepts that everyone has an immortal soul and that upon death one is sent to the temporary abode of the dead, hades. Then after the resurrection and judgment the unrighteous are sent to hell, the lake of fire, for eternal punishment. This supports the seriousness of Christ's warnings regarding hell.
 
Free said:
No. The "first" resurrection spoken of in Rev. 20:4 is clearly not that of 1 Cor. 15.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This does not describe every believer.

Neither does this mean that there is a special resurrection for only those who have been beheaded. Really, Free. What do you think the first resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 is about? Who do you think it is for? Did not Jesus say to his disciples (many of whom would fall under the category of Revelation 20:4) "I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN, so that where I am, there ye may be also - John 14:2-3

If a special set of dead are resurrected in Revelation 20:4, then it is not the FIRST resurrection. It is the SECOND one. And the wicked are in the THIRD resurrection. Revelation 20:5 also says 'Blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection, for the second death has no power over them'. So this musn't apply to those who were resurrected in 1 Corinthians 15 then?

Also, the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 happens before the 1000 years just as the chronology of Revelation 20:4 says. This verse obviously focuses on a certain group within those resurrected people.

Free said:
This leads precisely to a point I made earlier: cessation of life is not punishment. If the unrighteous dead are merely annihilated, then all of Christ's warnings about hell are utterly pointless. Shall I post some of Christ's warnings of hell?


You assume that annihilation means, when a wicked person dies physically they stay dead for all eternity. This is not true. They are resurrected, judged and cast into the lake of fire. There is punishing but the ultimate punishment is death, which IS a punishment, Free.

Free said:
This makes perfect sense when one accepts that everyone has an immortal soul and that upon death one is sent to the temporary abode of the dead, hades. Then after the resurrection and judgment the unrighteous are sent to hell, the lake of fire, for eternal punishment. This supports the seriousness of Christ's warnings regarding hell.

Maybe in your convulted logic and assumptions it makes sense, but the word of God cannot be used to support an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell at death. It is not there linguistically or contextually, Free. It also blatantly contradicts the Word in other places as well.
 
Hell is a lake of fire, I've seen it while in the spirit, and no you won't find it at any www. sites

d456re2.jpg
 
Hi all,
I wasn't sure who to reply to so I decided to just simply answer the question. Since Bubba posted it I guess this is to him or anyone else that would like to reply.

OK...you die. When you die your spirit sleeps in shoal, hades, grave, what ever the translation. (not hell).
This sleep is very sound and totally unaware of any passing of time. Anyone that has ever been knocked unconscious can relate to this.

Jn 11:11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Mt 27:52
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

1 Th 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This sleep is so sound that you immediately see the first resurrection or second. If you are resurrected in the first one you are with God. Second round picks are resurrected at the second resurrection and the white throne judgment. Then...

Rv 20:13-14
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now the church is with Jesus and the rest, (devil, beast, false prophet, death and Hades) are in the lake of fire, (hell). The second death. Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rv 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
I understand
sleepingfeet2wy.gif
but that is our physical body. Paul the Apostle said to be absent from the body is to be
present with the Lord. And again Jesus said to his partner on the cross, today thou shalt be with me in paradise. We shall inherit a new physical body at his second coming. The others will receive eternal corruption or decay if you will. :D Make sense? Oh! this is the abode of the unbeliever
until that day, to be absent from their body they will be in the presence of the devil and his angels.
d456re2.jpg






GraceBwithU said:
Hi all,
I wasn't sure who to reply to so I decided to just simply answer the question. Since Bubba posted it I guess this is to him or anyone else that would like to reply.

OK...you die. When you die your spirit sleeps in shoal, hades, grave, what ever the translation. (not hell).
This sleep is very sound and totally unaware of any passing of time. Anyone that has ever been knocked unconscious can relate to this.

Jn 11:11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Mt 27:52
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

1 Th 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This sleep is so sound that you immediately see the first resurrection or second. If you are resurrected in the first one you are with God. Second round picks are resurrected at the second resurrection and the white throne judgment. Then...

Rv 20:13-14
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now the church is with Jesus and the rest, (devil, beast, false prophet, death and Hades) are in the lake of fire, (hell). The second death. Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rv 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
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