Bible Study Hell Payment for others sins?

[Douglas Summers]

The Church and Paul did forgive because the sin stopped. In the case that I just posted, the sex act continues.

Born again believers do not practice sin.
The born again believer does not practice sin, he strives against it (God will give you a way out 1 Cor. 10:12-15. James 1:13-21) (1 John 1:5-10). This Spiritual power refers to the born again believer. Nominal Christians do not have this power and easily fall into temptation. But does God forgive such things? Yes!
Those who practice sin are not of Christ and the truth is not in them. There is a difference between practicing sin and disobedience unto the Lord. One is done by self will, the other is done by the weakness of the flesh. The born again believer repents, the self willed are just sorry. (2 Cor. 7:9-11)

 

[th1b.taylor]

Here Jesus shows us the 'sin' of THEFT by Satan, in mankind:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Smaller,
Conext, you know better than to jerk scripture out of context. This is a single verse from the parable of the sower folks and there is a context that is important here.

Smaller, when you or any Christian rapes the Word and the thinking man or woman does as Paul advised us to do and checks what you have to say and reads the chapter, you lose credibility. Worse than that all Christians lose credibility.

Verse 24 is the summary of Jesus' explanation of the explanation; 24 And He was saying to them, “Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides.25 For whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.”

Context would have made your post very strong but to the thinking searcher, it can easily be viewed that you were wrong, even when you are right.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
Conext, you know better than to jerk scripture out of context. This is a single verse from the parable of the sower folks and there is a context that is important here.

There is no context jerking involved whatsoever. Sorry you see it that way. I see Mark 4:15 as a hardline fact of scripture, no different in nature of fact as Jesus being Lord of all.

Smaller, when you or any Christian rapes the Word and the thinking man or woman does as Paul advised us to do and checks what you have to say and reads the chapter, you lose credibility. Worse than that all Christians lose credibility.

I'll say this to you yet again Bill. IF you want to engage in give and take productive theological conversation, then be specific in your criticism, which I can take and accept.

But what you are rather engaged in by the bold above is pointless and baseless accusations that are essentially worthless drivel.

Verse 24 is the summary of Jesus' explanation of the explanation; 24 And He was saying to them, “Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides.25 For whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.”

I'll provide here a civil discourse to your last paragraph:

Why Bill, do you think Verse24 eliminates the facts of Mark 4:15? You've not proven that is the case whatsoever and I really don't know how you could even believe that it does.

Context would have made your post very strong but to the thinking searcher, it can easily be viewed that you were wrong, even when you are right.

Then prove it. That's what these discussions are for. And please, stick to the facts. Avoid pointless unprofitable accusations, which are of no interest to me. Using such a tool doesn't prove anything or win anything.

I showed a 'sin of Satan' done IN MAN but not by the man from Satan "stealing Word" from the hearts of mankind from Mark 4:15. Why you took offense to that I can not say, but the statement of fact isn't going to change.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

And, for a personal reminder, the thief also comes to make pointless false blame and accusations to the brethren. Rev. 12:10. So don't be a pawn.

 

[Jim Parker]

On this premise: The un-repentent will pay for only their sins???

Your question gets more and more complicated as it progresses!
So, I will address only the basis of the rest of the question.
Question: Are sinners sent to hell to pay for their sins?
Answer: No

Hell is total separation from God who is light and life so, hell is darkness and death.
No one need go to hell. Heaven's gates have been flung wide for whoever will believe and repent. (Change his manner of living from self-pleasing to God-pleasing)
Those who reject the Gospel reject union with God in Christ. (less accurately called "heaven") The are not being punished for their sins, they are getting what they chose. When they rejected God's good and perfect will for their lives, they chose their own flawed will for themselves. And God, in His love for mankind, respects their choice and allows them to have an existence with themselves as their gods, or, "hell."
Sin does not have "punishment." Scripture says the WAGES of sin is death not the punishment for sin is death. It's what you get when you separate yourself from the one entity in existence Who has life in Himself; you get to eternally experience death.

We are all free to choose heaven or hell and to act in accordance with our choice.

Pick one.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

In order for a person to be forgiven, they must repent...not only feel sorry but turn around, change.
If a judge or president pardon you for a crime after you have spent time in jail...would it make sense for you after you have been released to go and commit the same crime or other crimes. Repentance is an integral part of salvation. Jesus told people to repent and the gospel writers along with the apostles in the New Testament did the same. Even in the old testament, the same theme runs through the bible.

2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Ezekiel 18:21-23 - But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Read More...)

Acts 17:30 - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Proverbs 28:13 - He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.

James 4:8-10 - Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. (Read More...)

Revelation 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 7:9-11 - Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (Free Bible Commentary.org)


Once convicted (the Holy Spirit does the convicting) the person acknowledge that they have sin and begins to make a change in their lives. I believe that if the persons refuses to change and continues sinning I believe that their conscience will be seared with a hot iron...like what Paul said. 1 Timothy 4:2

love all the Bible verses... I'm big on

repentance

It's good to review them.

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

My church does not believe in hell. But I have yet to be convinced otherwise. This scripture cannot be explained by those who hold this view.
Revelation 20:20, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
For those who do not believe in an everburning hell. How do they explain the term tormented.
When I was girl my mother would say to me if kept nagging her for something. She would say girl, don't torment my spirit.
Mark 9:43 (KJV 1900)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
unquenchable...CANNOT GO OUT.
Christ spoke a lot about hell.
I believe the only thing that would cause a person to serve God is the punishment of hell. If people who refuse to serve God and despise his way are just thrown in a burning lake and then that goes out. How then can they be tormented. If they are burnt up they cannot be tormented. Interestingly people understand eternal life but when the bible say the fire in hell is everlasting...they seem not to understand the meaning of everlasting.
We look at things through our human environment, a fire burns and then it goes out.
If God can cause a fire to burn...HE CAN KEEP IT BURNING.

People use the argument that God is too loving to cause people to burn for ever. God destroyed the world by a flood for the wicked things they did...and YET up to this day they are still doing wickedly.

I believe the only thing that would cause a person to serve God is the punishment of hell. If people who refuse to serve God and despise his way are just thrown in a burning lake and then that goes out.

i don't know here, abide. i wasn't raised in any Church, so I don't recall the thought of hell or the lake of fire entering my mind. I always had a sense of the Lord in my life, and when I began reading the Bible, i fell in love with it. i know without any doubt there is no other way than His Way. I know by what you post you believe that too.

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

As atpollard indicated, the scripture you used has nothing to do with with life beyond this world but cover life and marital relations here on earth. And then, Hell is temporary but when everyone is released from Hell it is to stand thye Judgement at the Great White Throne Judgement and from there to the Lake of Fire/Abyss.

when everyone is released from Hell it is to stand thye Judgement at the Great White Throne Judgement and from there to the Lake of Fire/Abyss.

Neither one sounds like a good vacation. i'm thankful for Jesus.

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

Thanks abide .. I have only been popping in and out been painting the spare room

The good ole days, when I was strong enough to paint all the outside and the inside of my first home. On second thought !

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

There are a lot of bad understandings of sin (aka hamartology, the christian theological study of sin) in the realms of christianity.

The most difficult thing to understand about sin, for any believer, and most do not understand it, is that "our sin" is of the devil. 1 John 3:

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The first understanding that needs to come to the table is that sin is not a matter of just and only MANKIND. Sin is a matter of mankind and the devil. Need more proof? There's plenty. Here Jesus shows us the 'sin' of THEFT by Satan, in mankind:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Do we see just and only mankind in the above action of THEFT? Nope. We see just as 1 John 3:8 sees. We see mankind and Satan.

So, understanding this simplicity, why do christians even have any discussions of SIN without factoring in the OTHER PARTY? It's a very ignorant approach to the subject matter.

So, how might this basic understanding affect our sights? Let's take a couple of quick examples postured by the first post. Is punishment in the LoF applicable to the devil? Yep! Check! Rev. 20:10 also shows this fate to be eternal. Satan is NOT getting out of the LoF. In fact nothing and no one going into said LoF is shown as getting out. That's not going to happen.

Now, let's look at the equations of 'forgiveness.' Is a believer forgiven? Of course. BUT, is Satan, the devil forgiven? NOPE! Why then have a one sided discussion about forgiveness then? In the equation of sin there is both forgiveness and unforgiveness. Do you see the difficulties of trying to see this only through one eye?

Now, let's talk about atonement of Jesus at the cross. Was atonement completely effective for believers? Absolutely! Completely! But, the big BUT comes to roost again. Was atonement effective for Satan, the devil? NOPE! The atonement didn't do the devil/Satan one bit of good.

So again, we see the frailties in trying to establish ONE SIDED ONE EYED theological positions that are so BLIND to the entire equations they are not even worthy of serious discussions.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

one of the verses i have to keep in mind of. it so easily happens.

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

There is no context jerking involved whatsoever. Sorry you see it that way. I see Mark 4:15 as a hardline fact of scripture, no different in nature of fact as Jesus being Lord of all.



I'll say this to you yet again Bill. IF you want to engage in give and take productive theological conversation, then be specific in your criticism, which I can take and accept.

But what you are rather engaged in by the bold above is pointless and baseless accusations that are essentially worthless drivel.


I'll provide here a civil discourse to your last paragraph:

Why Bill, do you think Verse24 eliminates the facts of Mark 4:15? You've not proven that is the case whatsoever and I really don't know how you could even believe that it does.


Then prove it. That's what these discussions are for. And please, stick to the facts. Avoid pointless unprofitable accusations, which are of no interest to me. Using such a tool doesn't prove anything or win anything.

I showed a 'sin of Satan' done IN MAN but not by the man from Satan "stealing Word" from the hearts of mankind from Mark 4:15. Why you took offense to that I can not say, but the statement of fact isn't going to change.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

And, for a personal reminder, the thief also comes to make pointless false blame and accusations to the brethren. Rev. 12:10. So don't be a pawn.

Boys or girls, now, now must grand-ma go over there and spank you
There are also verses on LOVE between the brethren, and pride verses, and what ever is not of God is....................... BTW what does all of that have to do with my original post ?

 

[smaller]

BTW what does all of that have to do with my original post ?

Read my first post and respond to details. It IS in line with thread matters and it's not as easy of subject matter as most might propose. There is a dual/opposite/opposing standard on this particular subject matter.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Neither one sounds like a good vacation. i'm thankful for Jesus.

You and I also but about the love that could forgive a sinner such as me, AWESOM GOD!!!

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

Your question gets more and more complicated as it progresses!
So, I will address only the basis of the rest of the question.
Question: Are sinners sent to hell to pay for their sins?
Answer: No

Hell is total separation from God who is light and life so, hell is darkness and death.
No one need go to hell. Heaven's gates have been flung wide for whoever will believe and repent. (Change his manner of living from self-pleasing to God-pleasing)
Those who reject the Gospel reject union with God in Christ. (less accurately called "heaven") The are not being punished for their sins, they are getting what they chose. When they rejected God's good and perfect will for their lives, they chose their own flawed will for themselves. And God, in His love for mankind, respects their choice and allows them to have an existence with themselves as their gods, or, "hell."
Sin does not have "punishment." Scripture says the WAGES of sin is death not the punishment for sin is death. It's what you get when you separate yourself from the one entity in existence Who has life in Himself; you get to eternally experience death.

We are all free to choose heaven or hell and to act in accordance with our choice.

Pick one.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Like your reply and I agree with it, but what does it have to do with my original post?
However, if I am understanding every one's responses correctly, all the persons that the UN-repentant promiscuous sinner has "become one with" through sex, on earth, (as stated in scripture), does not apply once that person dies, and goes to the White Throne Judgement ? Is this right ?

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

Hi there Sister J.R. You may have heard a popular Baptist saying, "Hell is temporary until the Great White Throne Judgment. The permanent place is the Lake Of Fire." Also, each individual who is unsaved, will be judged on their works or deeds. The "books" hold all their evil deeds....
Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

I hope this helps.

The permanent place is the Lake Of Fire." Also, each individual who is unsaved, will be judged on their works or deeds.

I've never done research on either. Thanks.
So, the unsaved will be judged on their works, but not the works of those they are connected to as one, sexually?

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

Your question gets more and more complicated as it progresses!
So, I will address only the basis of the rest of the question.
Question: Are sinners sent to hell to pay for their sins?
Answer: No

Hell is total separation from God who is light and life so, hell is darkness and death.
No one need go to hell. Heaven's gates have been flung wide for whoever will believe and repent. (Change his manner of living from self-pleasing to God-pleasing)
Those who reject the Gospel reject union with God in Christ. (less accurately called "heaven") The are not being punished for their sins, they are getting what they chose. When they rejected God's good and perfect will for their lives, they chose their own flawed will for themselves. And God, in His love for mankind, respects their choice and allows them to have an existence with themselves as their gods, or, "hell."
Sin does not have "punishment." Scripture says the WAGES of sin is death not the punishment for sin is death. It's what you get when you separate yourself from the one entity in existence Who has life in Himself; you get to eternally experience death.

We are all free to choose heaven or hell and to act in accordance with our choice.

Pick one.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

It may be you did not read the point of my OP, which is

What about the un-repentent who became one with others through sexually union?
Since God sees them as one entity?
Do they pay for their partners sins as well?

Or what about those persons they committed adultery with, and are now joined as one with everyone they committed adultery with?
That would be paying for quite a lot of sins (that run into eternity), since they are now connected to so many.
Of course nobody knows how long a time span they would be paying for each adultery, excluding all the others they're connected to?
Just heard the news, about pro-life marches.
Here's another sin connected to the above...
It has always been common practice for women to have secret abortions, to conceal the fruit of fornication and adulterous affairs.
So is abortion, added to the adultery sins, since they are connected.
There are others sins that spring forth from sexual sins, but this is all for now.
You are free to add to this list.

It's not about hell or sin mainly, it's about the oneness of those un-repentant who indudge in sexual sins. Will they be judged on their sins only or include the sins of everyone they became one with?

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

There are a lot of bad understandings of sin (aka hamartology, the christian theological study of sin) in the realms of christianity.

The most difficult thing to understand about sin, for any believer, and most do not understand it, is that "our sin" is of the devil. 1 John 3:

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The first understanding that needs to come to the table is that sin is not a matter of just and only MANKIND. Sin is a matter of mankind and the devil. Need more proof? There's plenty. Here Jesus shows us the 'sin' of THEFT by Satan, in mankind:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Do we see just and only mankind in the above action of THEFT? Nope. We see just as 1 John 3:8 sees. We see mankind and Satan.

So, understanding this simplicity, why do christians even have any discussions of SIN without factoring in the OTHER PARTY? It's a very ignorant approach to the subject matter.

So, how might this basic understanding affect our sights? Let's take a couple of quick examples postured by the first post. Is punishment in the LoF applicable to the devil? Yep! Check! Rev. 20:10 also shows this fate to be eternal. Satan is NOT getting out of the LoF. In fact nothing and no one going into said LoF is shown as getting out. That's not going to happen.

Now, let's look at the equations of 'forgiveness.' Is a believer forgiven? Of course. BUT, is Satan, the devil forgiven? NOPE! Why then have a one sided discussion about forgiveness then? In the equation of sin there is both forgiveness and unforgiveness. Do you see the difficulties of trying to see this only through one eye?

Now, let's talk about atonement of Jesus at the cross. Was atonement completely effective for believers? Absolutely! Completely! But, the big BUT comes to roost again. Was atonement effective for Satan, the devil? NOPE! The atonement didn't do the devil/Satan one bit of good.

So again, we see the frailties in trying to establish ONE SIDED ONE EYED theological positions that are so BLIND to the entire equations they are not even worthy of serious discussions.

OK son, I re-read your first reply as you requested. I don't understand the connection, though.
I think we are on separate levels intellectually. The best I can figure is, you are saying "the devil made me do it" ? :biggrin BTW I believe in satan, as the Bible speaks of him in depth. But I don't believe in the way he is protrayed secular.

 

[smaller]

OK son, I re-read your first reply as you requested. I don't understand the connection, though.
I think we are on separate levels intellectually. The best I can figure is, you are saying "the devil made me do it" ?

Uh, no. I did meet Flip Wilson while he was still alive though.

The devil is quite assuredly involved in sin, beyond any question.

 

[Jim Parker]

It may be you did not read the point of my OP, which is
It's not about hell or sin mainly, it's about the oneness of those un-repentant who indudge in sexual sins. Will they be judged on their sins only or include the sins of everyone they became one with?

Ah so des ka.

First: A believer will not come under judgment for any sin of which he has confessed and repented.
1Jo 1:9 (NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Second: The sanctification of a believer who has been forgiven extends to the unbelieving spouse, not the sins of the unbeliever to the believing spouse.
1Co 7:14 (NIV) For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband.

 

[Jehovah-Rapha]

Uh, no. I did meet Flip Wilson while he was still alive though.

The devil is quite assuredly involved in sin, beyond any question.

No doubt about that. I am thankful that our Father did not reveal all my sins to me at once.
As even now, by His loving grace I am made aware of sins I didn't ever know i was committing by deception of our great enemy satan. The Great liar, thief, and murderer.

 

[Chopper]

I've never done research on either. Thanks.
So, the unsaved will be judged on their works, but not the works of those they are connected to as one, sexually?

Each person stands before the Great White Throne, all by themselves, and their "works" that are written down in a book will be what Jesus looks at, and He will judge them because of what they did in their lifetime. If they are homosexuals they will be judged individually.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

A lot of Theologians feel the the "death" in verse 32 is aids which will never see a cure.