Hell's Best Kept Secret: the Gospel without the Law

[Mike]

Getting back to the OP, Josh, could you try to post the link to the recorded message again. One other person said he couldn't load it, and neither can I. I get an unknown error message.

I'd like to comment after I've listened.

Maybe if you post the full link and uncheck "automatically parse links in text".

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Theodore A. Jones

“What it does say is that the law has had an addititon made to it to complete it.”

An addition to the Law would be a change. There has been no addition to the Law. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law. He did not complete it. He didn’t change the Law. If Jesus changed the Law in any way, then he isn’t the Messiah.

Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(KJV)

This is the purpose of the Law that Rom 5:20 alludes to.

Ro 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
Ro 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(NIV)



“the sin of crucifying Jesus would allow a direct denefit by the commision of a sin. Expecting to obtain a direct benefit by disobeying God is the exact same principle Satan tempted Eve with and it is the exact same principle Caiaphas used to justify Jesus' crucifixion. "It is a good idea for one man to die to save the nation." ”

That’s quite a hobby horse you’re a ridin there. You emphasize an experience that stops at the physical crucifixion. The crucifixion isn’t just this,

Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
(KJV)

It has a purpose that goes far beyond what is true above,

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

(KJV)


And it’s also this,

Lu 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Lu 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

(KJV)

Why haven’t you experienced these things? Check your own experience before you accuse others of following Satan.

FC

Your position then is that Scripture does have errors in it? The Lord is not a Lawgiver as Isa. says. A law has not proceeded from Him as Isa. quotes Him.
There has not been any addition of any sort to the law as Paul says. Even tho. it being plainly written that unpon the priesthood being changed this also resulted in making a change to the law, but none of that is true? I suppose you also think that there are only a few who ever actually find what this small narrow gate that an individual must use for an escape from the wrath of God, is also untrue. Is this also untrue:
"And for Your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man."? I suppose by your judgement you are not in the class of EACH MAN, TOO, are you? No man no matter what he thinks has nor will have gained a direct benefit for any reason by the loss of any other man's life caused by bloodshed. For whenever bloodshed is the primary cause of the loss of a man's life. Preexistant of that fact established by an oath of God is the requirment to give God an account. "Did God really say"?

 

[smaller]

The Law is one of my favorite subjects. I know it well enough to say as Paul states, it is upheld to prove the fact that all mankind are sinners.

Paul threw a big wrench into this subject matter that remains disputed to this day, that is by believers who try to take one side or the other, that being Law followers or Law tossers.

The fact is that Paul both upheld and decried the Law simultaneously. That is enough to want to make any believer who seeks understanding to try to get where Paul was coming from, should it not? This is not a 'one side' or the 'other' matter.

It is both.

The fact remains that breaking the Law proves sin, and this fact remains for believers as well, which is why some shun the law. But the fact that all believers sin by breaking the Law remains, which is why some avoid it. The fact is that the Law, even with believers will continue to prove the point of the Law, in that all still sin, period. There is no avoiding this fact and the Law that proves it.

The law is for the lawless. Lawlessness is sin. All sin. Therefore the Law is and remains for all believers. Whether you say as a believer you don't sin by murdering someone by love or by Law doesn't matter. Murder is against both the Law of writing and the Law of the Spirit. There is no division between these two because the final intent is identical.

Lawlessness in the form of sin remains in all people, and Gods Laws are permanently prescribed against SIN. That is not going to change for anyone.

Those who pick up the Law and believe the presence of sin 'within' them is 'obedient' are climbing an impossible terrain. Those who avoid the Law, knowing it proves the presence of sin and thinking it disappears by avoidance are also working in futility by speaking against it.

The Law is in fact spiritual, and works against the spirits of the anti-Christ within the hearts of all mankind. IF you doubt this just ask yourself, truthfully, if you have had sin thoughts by the tempter. If you have, then you should know that the Law is against that operator, not YOU.

Therefore the Law is your ally, and you should not expect the tempter to obey same whatsoever. In fact the Law arouses and empowers the tempter into action.

Paul landed in a place of truth that few believers can admit to or come to personal understanding. His statement is rather clear to me.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This was a fact for Paul and it remains a fact for all. That evil present with Paul was not lawful nor would it ever be lawful. That is what Paul finally determined from the Law. He then takes us to the place of the Law where Spiritual fulfillment is reached in Romans 13:8-10.

It's quite simple really. Those who love their neighbors as themselves have fulfilled every jot and tittle of all law. And the evil present with them remains lawless regardless, the law remaining against that working.

Have fun with personal applications. May you find the fact of 'evil present' to be solid understanding.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[childeye]

=Former Christian;572850]Childeye

“The law is the bare minimum, while charity returning good for evil, praying for your enemies, caring for the weak and helpless is far above thou shalt not steal. Mercy is greater than an eye for an eye form of justice.”

You haven’t read the Law or the Old Testament with an open mind if you think that caring for the weak and helpless, if you think that mercy, is not a part of the Law.

Yes I know it is part of the written law, but the fact remains Love fulfills the law without ever having read it. Love wrote it.

The idea that Jesus changed the Law, making it something more is a fallacy.

Jesus didn't change the law, but went further than the law. That's what go the extra mile means. The law never said sell everything you own and give the money to the poor. Nor is the law by faith. It is by doubt.

The true disciple of Christ is the one who keeps his commandments, and the commandments that Jesus kept are the same commandments that God gave in the Law. We are to be conformed to Jesus Christ. Apart from a realization that the Law is a part of the reality that is Jesus Christ, one can’t be conformed to the image of Christ.

The objectives of the law are not exactly the objectives of Jesus. The law is meant to condemn men as sinners believe it or not. Believing in the Christ is about attaining the Spirit of Christ so as to be without iniquity. Hence your statement "Apart from a realization that the law is a part of the reality that is Jesus Christ, one can't be conformed to the image of Christ", is dubious depending what you apply to the phrase a "part of the reality". The bottom line is God doesn't need laws and neither do those who are born of His Spirit.

Finally you have shown how what Jesus says is what the law says. Well done, but of course it is, since he is the Spirit of it before it was ever penned by Moses or nay other servant of God. He who has the Spirit of Christ does not need memorize the law having it written on the heart and mind. He who has the Word of God could write them without ever having read them and they would be the same as what Moses wrote. Even because goodness is Spirit.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Truthseeker, the italics are yours. What if you trust today, and tomorrow you discard that trust and lose your faith. Is this individual still saved?

Thomas doubted, yet he was saved. A born again Christian can go through phases of doubt, yet God still saves them. The only way a person is lost if they willfully REFUSE TO LOVE THE TRUTH, 2 Thess 2:10

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Well then I guess Paul has made a mistake. But didn't he write "Do not go beyond what is written."? And didn't he also write "All Scripture is God-breathed (inspired) and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."? So then if you are right then it is Paul that's wrong. But wait a minute. I think Paul says that what he knows was taught to him by the Holy spirit. And by the way. Doesn't Heb. 7:12 say that the law was changed after Jesus' crucifixion? Do you think that is wrong too? I becha you even say that the Scripture is inerrant too, don't cha? Paul did write, "It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." So this statement is false in your opinion and Paul is a false teacher?

You have accused Paul of lying and teaching deceit! You have rejected all of Scripture!

 

[cyberjosh]

Getting back to the OP, Josh, could you try to post the link to the recorded message again. One other person said he couldn't load it, and neither can I. I get an unknown error message.

I'd like to comment after I've listened.

Maybe if you post the full link and uncheck "automatically parse links in text".

Hi Mike,

I see this thread has been revived. This sermon is well known, and I've had people in the last year mention it to me out of the blue. I simply googled the sermon and many results popped up. It looks like it can be downloaded from a website created for it here: http://www.livingwaters.com/learn/hellsbestkeptsecret.htm. Here is an alternate link: http://www.wayofthemaster.com/audiolessons.shtml. Let me know if you have any problems listening to it.

Note to everyone else: please listen to the audio before you attempt to judge the teaching.

Thanks,
Josh

 

[Former Christian]

Theodore A. Jones

The Law was kept and fulfilled by Jesus not changed. If Jesus changed the Law, he’s a false prophet as well as a false messiah. And the New Testament lies about him, that he kept the Law, which he couldn’t have done if he changed the Law. It lies about him following his Father, which he couldn’t have done if he changed the Law.


3346 metatithemi

Ac 7:16 And were carried over <3346> into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are <3346> so soon removed <3346> from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed <3346>, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated <3346> that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated <3346> him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning <3346> the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Ac 7:16 "From there they were removed <3346> to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.
Ga 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting <3346> Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed <3346>, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken <3346> up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK <3346> HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn <3346> the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
(NASB)

The word obviously doesn’t just mean change according to these two translations.


3331 metathesis from 3346

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change <3331> also of the law.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation <3331> he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing <3331> of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(KJV)

Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change <3331> of law also.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being <3331> taken <3331> up he was pleasing to God.
Heb 12:27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing <3331> of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(NASB)

Same with this word.

You can go ahead and believe that Jesus changed the Law. I don’t believe it. If I did, it would only prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that my continuing to believe in the Bible was foolish on my part. And that those who believe that Christianity and the Bible stand and fall together were right and I was wrong. And that when I saw that Christianity was nothing more than a man-made religion, I should have seen that the Bible was also just a man-made book. But since I don’t believe that the Law has been changed, I continue to believe that the source of the Bible is supernatural.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Smaller

Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
(KJV)

I would hope that all who are in Christ would realize that the flesh is within and abundantly active. More so in such as they would know the Law where others would not. I hope you don’t think that this law that Paul mentions is a law that adds to the Law of God.

Romans 13:
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
(KJV)

A very misunderstood portion of Scripture. It’s a repeat of what Jesus himself said. But who understands love? Who understands that love is the total giving of oneself on behalf of others? (John 13:34) Who understands that God only shows mercy to those who love God and keeps his commandments? (De 5:10) Who understands that they are worshipping God in vain whose teachings are nothing more than commandments taught by men? (Mt 15:9) Who realizes that the expression of love toward God and Jesus Christ is to keep their commandments, that are of necessity one and the same commandments? (John 14:15, 15:10)

Indeed, who understands this?

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
(KJV)

Why would, how could, John say this if the Law was something to be gotten rid of at the earliest opportunity? Something to be “spiritually†interpreted away?


Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

How many go on from here to this,

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

How many then begin to realize that

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

How many realize that to the extent they do NOT follow the commandments given by God in the Law are to that extent usurping the place of the Spirit in their own lives?

The Law is ineffectual as far as saving mankind. Not because of the nature of the Law, but because of the fallen nature of mankind. Jesus fulfilled that part of the Law relating to salvation, so that in Christ we can be saved. Why this then becomes an abrogation of the whole Law, that Jesus himself said would not pass away....that is what is beyond me.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

Don’t suppose you might consider that going further than the Law is to change the Law? Personally, I never try to go the extra mile. I’m pretty busy with the mile I’m already walking.

“The law never said sell everything you own and give the money to the poor.â€

Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mr 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

You take something said to a rich man and apply it as if Jesus changed the Law, or in your words “went further than the lawâ€. This man said he kept the Law from his youth up. Jesus asked him to sell what he has to show him he was guilty of covetousness, and hadn’t kept the Law from his youth up. Jesus showed this rich man that he was really no different than the rest of fallen mankind. At that point this man didn’t understand. Whether he did later on is not recorded.


“Nor is the law by faith. It is by doubt.â€

Guess I’m a doubter then, along with all of Israel and the Old Testament prophets for a couple of millennia. But in my way of lookin at it, I do what the Law says because I believe God, that he gave it to benefit us. I figure if it’s good enough for Jesus to keep perfectly and to fulfill, it’s good enough to guide me.


“The objectives of the law are not exactly the objectives of Jesus. The law is meant to condemn men as sinners believe it or not.â€

Not, I should think. If the objective of the Law isn’t the objective of Jesus, then why is it claimed that he kept and fulfilled the Law? The Law isn’t intended to, nor can it, condemn anyone. It was meant to show why God condemns all so that all can be saved in Christ. It’s meant to show that the nature of mankind has become such as to need a Saviour. There’s nothing wrong with the Law. The problem is with us. And Jesus came to rectify that problem. In order to keep the Law, one must have a life capable of keeping that Law. Mankind in Adam has become degraded by the death within. Mankind no longer has a life that is capable of keeping the Law to the point of salvation. So God sent someone else that does have that kind of life. His own Son. And whosoever is in Jesus Christ the Son of God is capable of keeping the Law so long as such walks according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1-9).


“Believing in the Christ is about attaining the Spirit of Christ so as to be without iniquity.... The bottom line is God doesn't need laws and neither do those who are born of His Spirit.â€

What you claim isn’t possible. We can attain to nothing. Attainment is the way of man-made religion of every kind. Being conformed to the image of the Son is not an attainment. It’s a change in life. We believe God and in this way we believe into Christ. We are water baptized as an expression of the faith in God, and we are simultaneously baptized into Christ by the Spirit of God. Then we walk by the Spirit, not to attain some exalted position or a change in our lives to the better, but to be conformed to Christ who is our life. And to live the fruit of the Spirit, which is just the life of and in Christ.


“Finally you have shown how what Jesus says is what the law says. Well done, but of course it is, since he is the Spirit of it before it was ever penned by Moses. He who has the Spirit of Christ does not need memorize the law. He who has the Word of God could write them without ever having read them and they would be the same as what Moses wrote. Even because goodness is Spirit.â€

I believe that Jesus uses the Bible to teach us, and that whatever the Spirit is saying is what Jesus is saying. And that the Bible is based as a whole on the Law given by God, not only to the Jews, but to all who are in Christ. If the Torah was written by Moses, which is what I believe, then even the Genesis account and half of Exodus is written from the perspective of one who knew the Law.

You may not need your Bible, but I need mine. As a believer I am lost without it. All of it. Including the Old Testament, which Paul said was profitable for teaching us what is true, conviction for our being convinced of what is true, setting us upright from our prone position due to death and sin, and training in righteousness as opposed to sin. That is the Law in the Torah and the experiential commentary on that Law in the rest of the Old Testament. And I need the New Testament as a further commentary on the Law for those under the New Covenant. The New Testament commentary changed nothing, anymore than did the Old Testament commentary. It only reveals something hidden to the Jews. The inclusion of the Gentiles into the life in Christ. Jews in Judaism think that the New Testament constitutes a change in the Law. But as with much else that Jesus said, they have misunderstood. Only as a non-believer would I not need any portion of the Bible, since I am then being and becoming righteous in my own eyes.

Memorization of the Law or any part of the Bible isn’t a bad thing. Unless it’s done for memorization’s sake only. Memorization of the Law doesn’t necessarily mean that one knows the Law. The Pharisees thought they knew the Law inside and out. But they added to and changed the Law with their Traditions of men. The Pharisees thought they knew the Law inside and out. But they knew not Jesus. There are many who claim to be Christians who are just like the Pharisees. And it’s unfortunate today that many claim to know Jesus, but know not the Law that explains who he is.

You have come under the delusion of an emphasis. You emphasize Love. Love is indeed the center of the Law. But it isn’t intended to be an emphasis apart from knowing the Law which is it’s expression. We aren’t intended to throw away our Bibles simply because we realize that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. We need the Bible to fully realize what that means. Including a knowledge of the Law. We don’t throw away the Bible because we realize that we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. We need the Bible, including the Law, to live that out experientially. We aren’t intended to throw away our Bibles simply because we think we’re walking according to the Spirit. The Law tells us whether or not we are actually walking according the Spirit, or according to another spirit.

The Jews emphasized the Law. They centered on the Law, intended to be the expression of love toward God and man, That is the delusion of the Jews. They didn’t submit themselves to Jesus Christ, the end of the Law into righteousness. They didn’t submit to Jesus Christ, who is the living example of the Law. To those who are in Christ, Christ is their righteousness because he is their life.

The Jews interpret the Law to mean things it doesn’t say. Christians interpret the Bible to mean things it doesn’t say. In the process they both establish their own righteousness without submitting themselves to the righteousness of God. The Jews develop their own ideas of reality through the practice of interpretation. Christians create their own teachings through the practice of interpretation without submitting themselves to the teachings of God. The situation in Christianity is much more devastating because the world can only believe in something that it can see. And it sees denominations and organizations in Christianity that are no different in essence, a very human essence, than the divisions and organizations of the world.

Why I even bring that up I don’t know, since those to whom this should affect, it only has the affect of proving to them that I’m one such as them, only more so. It seems that God has given some Christians up to their own doctrines. Biblical interpretations that are their own delusions. At least I am open to realizing that my own interpretations are delusions, something they are not.
It’s up to individuals today to overcome in Christ. As it was in the seven ekklesia in Revelation. Hear what the Spirit is saying to the ekklesia. One either continues in the fervor of the innocence of one’s initial conversion when the desire was to devour everything the Bible had to say apart from the delusions of Biblical interpretation. Or one hardens their heart as in the day of provocation (KJV) or rebellion (NIV).

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Cyberjosh

Sorry to say, I haven't been successful in downloading "Hell's Best Kept Secret". It's in many different forms and lengths on YouTube. Can't even get one of those versions to download as yet. If I might suggest, perhaps a short synopsis for those of us still having a problem with that. I've already posted pretty much my personal view on the Law. But it might be of help to someone else who is waiting to comment.

FC

 

[eddy]

After reading through this thread I am lost. I can't tell what point anyone is making.

Could someone explain to me what the topic is.

Also, what is the Law? Is it the ten commandments?

 

[childeye]

Childeye

Don’t suppose you might consider that going further than the Law is to change the Law? Personally, I never try to go the extra mile. I’m pretty busy with the mile I’m already walking.

“The law never said sell everything you own and give the money to the poor.”

Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mr 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

You take something said to a rich man and apply it as if Jesus changed the Law, or in your words “went further than the law”. This man said he kept the Law from his youth up. Jesus asked him to sell what he has to show him he was guilty of covetousness, and hadn’t kept the Law from his youth up. Jesus showed this rich man that he was really no different than the rest of fallen mankind. At that point this man didn’t understand. Whether he did later on is not recorded.


“Nor is the law by faith. It is by doubt.”

Guess I’m a doubter then, along with all of Israel and the Old Testament prophets for a couple of millennia. But in my way of lookin at it, I do what the Law says because I believe God, that he gave it to benefit us. I figure if it’s good enough for Jesus to keep perfectly and to fulfill, it’s good enough to guide me.


“The objectives of the law are not exactly the objectives of Jesus. The law is meant to condemn men as sinners believe it or not.”

Not, I should think. If the objective of the Law isn’t the objective of Jesus, then why is it claimed that he kept and fulfilled the Law? The Law isn’t intended to, nor can it, condemn anyone. It was meant to show why God condemns all so that all can be saved in Christ. It’s meant to show that the nature of mankind has become such as to need a Saviour. There’s nothing wrong with the Law. The problem is with us. And Jesus came to rectify that problem. In order to keep the Law, one must have a life capable of keeping that Law. Mankind in Adam has become degraded by the death within. Mankind no longer has a life that is capable of keeping the Law to the point of salvation. So God sent someone else that does have that kind of life. His own Son. And whosoever is in Jesus Christ the Son of God is capable of keeping the Law so long as such walks according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1-9).


“Believing in the Christ is about attaining the Spirit of Christ so as to be without iniquity.... The bottom line is God doesn't need laws and neither do those who are born of His Spirit.”

What you claim isn’t possible. We can attain to nothing. Attainment is the way of man-made religion of every kind. Being conformed to the image of the Son is not an attainment. It’s a change in life. We believe God and in this way we believe into Christ. We are water baptized as an expression of the faith in God, and we are simultaneously baptized into Christ by the Spirit of God. Then we walk by the Spirit, not to attain some exalted position or a change in our lives to the better, but to be conformed to Christ who is our life. And to live the fruit of the Spirit, which is just the life of and in Christ.


“Finally you have shown how what Jesus says is what the law says. Well done, but of course it is, since he is the Spirit of it before it was ever penned by Moses. He who has the Spirit of Christ does not need memorize the law. He who has the Word of God could write them without ever having read them and they would be the same as what Moses wrote. Even because goodness is Spirit.”

I believe that Jesus uses the Bible to teach us, and that whatever the Spirit is saying is what Jesus is saying. And that the Bible is based as a whole on the Law given by God, not only to the Jews, but to all who are in Christ. If the Torah was written by Moses, which is what I believe, then even the Genesis account and half of Exodus is written from the perspective of one who knew the Law.

You may not need your Bible, but I need mine. As a believer I am lost without it. All of it. Including the Old Testament, which Paul said was profitable for teaching us what is true, conviction for our being convinced of what is true, setting us upright from our prone position due to death and sin, and training in righteousness as opposed to sin. That is the Law in the Torah and the experiential commentary on that Law in the rest of the Old Testament. And I need the New Testament as a further commentary on the Law for those under the New Covenant. The New Testament commentary changed nothing, anymore than did the Old Testament commentary. It only reveals something hidden to the Jews. The inclusion of the Gentiles into the life in Christ. Jews in Judaism think that the New Testament constitutes a change in the Law. But as with much else that Jesus said, they have misunderstood. Only as a non-believer would I not need any portion of the Bible, since I am then being and becoming righteous in my own eyes.

Memorization of the Law or any part of the Bible isn’t a bad thing. Unless it’s done for memorization’s sake only. Memorization of the Law doesn’t necessarily mean that one knows the Law. The Pharisees thought they knew the Law inside and out. But they added to and changed the Law with their Traditions of men. The Pharisees thought they knew the Law inside and out. But they knew not Jesus. There are many who claim to be Christians who are just like the Pharisees. And it’s unfortunate today that many claim to know Jesus, but know not the Law that explains who he is.

You have come under the delusion of an emphasis. You emphasize Love. Love is indeed the center of the Law. But it isn’t intended to be an emphasis apart from knowing the Law which is it’s expression. We aren’t intended to throw away our Bibles simply because we realize that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. We need the Bible to fully realize what that means. Including a knowledge of the Law. We don’t throw away the Bible because we realize that we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. We need the Bible, including the Law, to live that out experientially. We aren’t intended to throw away our Bibles simply because we think we’re walking according to the Spirit. The Law tells us whether or not we are actually walking according the Spirit, or according to another spirit.

The Jews emphasized the Law. They centered on the Law, intended to be the expression of love toward God and man, That is the delusion of the Jews. They didn’t submit themselves to Jesus Christ, the end of the Law into righteousness. They didn’t submit to Jesus Christ, who is the living example of the Law. To those who are in Christ, Christ is their righteousness because he is their life.

The Jews interpret the Law to mean things it doesn’t say. Christians interpret the Bible to mean things it doesn’t say. In the process they both establish their own righteousness without submitting themselves to the righteousness of God. The Jews develop their own ideas of reality through the practice of interpretation. Christians create their own teachings through the practice of interpretation without submitting themselves to the teachings of God. The situation in Christianity is much more devastating because the world can only believe in something that it can see. And it sees denominations and organizations in Christianity that are no different in essence, a very human essence, than the divisions and organizations of the world.

Why I even bring that up I don’t know, since those to whom this should affect, it only has the affect of proving to them that I’m one such as them, only more so. It seems that God has given some Christians up to their own doctrines. Biblical interpretations that are their own delusions. At least I am open to realizing that my own interpretations are delusions, something they are not.
It’s up to individuals today to overcome in Christ. As it was in the seven ekklesia in Revelation. Hear what the Spirit is saying to the ekklesia. One either continues in the fervor of the innocence of one’s initial conversion when the desire was to devour everything the Bible had to say apart from the delusions of Biblical interpretation. Or one hardens their heart as in the day of provocation (KJV) or rebellion (NIV).

FC

Gosh FC, your post is long making it tedious to address every point and nuance described therein. Suffice it to say, God is Spirit which is the substance of the Letter. If you trust in the Letter as you say "you need it", it testifies to this fact. I mean no disregard for scripture, but I find righteousness by faith different than righteousness by the works of the law. While having the Spirit fullfills the law, having the law does not automatically fulfill the Spirit. One point I would have you consider. Jesus said Love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself and this sums up all the laws and the prophets. If I am to believe Jesus, I must simply follow Love, for God is Love.

 

[childeye]

After reading through this thread I am lost. I can't tell what point anyone is making.

Could someone explain to me what the topic is.

Also, what is the Law? Is it the ten commandments?

The thread is about a sermon given that I have not heard so I cannot fully comment adequately. I will tell you what my limited take is of this thread. The law is refering to every written ordinance of God. While such ordinances describe what is righteous behavior according to God, there remains the issue of whether men can accomplish this righteous behavior apart from having any tangible righteousness inside themselves. Hence Love is necessary to be righteous, and God being the eternal Spirit of Love lives in us by grace through faith. So the issue is whether the law was meant to follow as a discipline of mental memorization governing action, or was it meant to show we cannot accomplish it without God's Spirit?

 

[cyberjosh]

Cyberjosh

Sorry to say, I haven't been successful in downloading "Hell's Best Kept Secret". It's in many different forms and lengths on YouTube. Can't even get one of those versions to download as yet. If I might suggest, perhaps a short synopsis for those of us still having a problem with that. I've already posted pretty much my personal view on the Law. But it might be of help to someone else who is waiting to comment.

FC

Give me a little time and I will try to upload the .mp3 to my website and then I can link everyone there. I will need a mod's assistance to edit my OP though to change that link.

P.S. Did you see my post to Mike on the last page where I gave two new links? It looked like you could get the sermon from there - although I didn't try.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

After reading through this thread I am lost. I can't tell what point anyone is making.

Could someone explain to me what the topic is.

Also, what is the Law? Is it the ten commandments?

eddy, you have to make a choice.. follow what Jesus taught about salvation OR follow what these people on this forum teach about salvation, because they contradict each other.

People on this forum will tell you things like it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to be saved today and always saved, and that it's impossible for you to be saved unless you keep God's 10 Commandments and never sin etc.

But Jesus and Bible says a sinner can be saved by FAITH AND MERCY AND GRACE!

So who do you want to believe?

Do you trust in Jesus? If you answered yes, then read John 14:1-3 and tell me if Jesus was telling the truth in these verses or lying?

So we can have certainty and assurance in our salvation NOW, because in John 14:1-3 Jesus said when we trust in Him, that HE WILL COME BACK AND TAKE US WITH HIM.

Anyone who claims we cannot be certain we are saved now, they accuse Jesus of lying in John 14:1-3.

 

[eddy]

eddy, you have to make a choice.. follow what Jesus taught about salvation OR follow what these people on this forum teach about salvation, because they contradict each other.

People on this forum will tell you things like it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to be saved today and always saved, and that it's impossible for you to be saved unless you keep God's 10 Commandments and never sin etc.

But Jesus and Bible says a sinner can be saved by FAITH AND MERCY AND GRACE!

So who do you want to believe?

Do you trust in Jesus? If you answered yes, then read John 14:1-3 and tell me if Jesus was telling the truth in these verses or lying?

So we can have certainty and assurance in our salvation NOW, because in John 14:1-3 Jesus said when we trust in Him, that HE WILL COME BACK AND TAKE US WITH HIM.

Anyone who claims we cannot be certain we are saved now, they accuse Jesus of lying in John 14:1-3.

Ok I am gaining some insight.

I think you are doing your position a bit of a dis service by calling them liars. Perhaps they a just honestly wrong?

Can a sinner get into Heaven. Obviously, as all humans are flawed sinners. I learned that the death of Jesus was to forgive sin not eradicate it. Of course being saved does not make one a perfect human.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Ok I am gaining some insight.

I think you are doing your position a bit of a dis service by calling them liars. Perhaps they a just honestly wrong?

Can a sinner get into Heaven. Obviously, as all humans are flawed sinners. I learned that the death of Jesus was to forgive sin not eradicate it. Of course being saved does not make one a perfect human.

A lie is a lie eddy, no matter how much sugar coating they place on it. Jesus said if you TRUST IN HIM HE WILL COME BACK FOR YOU AND TAKE YOU TO HEAVEN! But many Legalistic false teachers say NO, Jesus will not come back for you if you do not perform enough WORKS AND GOOD DEEDS AND HUMAN EFFORT!

SO a LIE is a LIE!

You then said, "I learned that the death of Jesus was to forgive sin not eradicate it."... my question is.. SCRIPTURE PLEASE?

And can you please explain these verses to me and what you think they mean and teach?

Hebrews 9:26 – He did away with sin on the Cross
Hebrews 9:28 - He took away the sin of the world at the Cross
Colossians 2:13 - He forgave all sins on the Cross – past present and future
Hebrews 1:3 – God cleansed all sins on the Cross
2 Cor 5:19 - God no longer counts the world’s sins against them
Hebrews 10:17-18 – God has forgiven all sins and forgotten them.
Micah 7:19 - God has thrown all our sins into the depths of the sea.

 

[cyberjosh]

************ATTENTION************

For those of you who were looking for the audio of this sermon I have found a valid link to it here:

Hell's Best Kept Secret - SermonAudio.com

As a more permanent link I have also uploaded the mp3 to my website at the URL below. You can right-click on the link and select "Save target as" to download the mp3 or you can just click on it to have it load in your browser (you must have an audio player like QuickTime to hear it that way though).

http://www.scholarofgod.com/audio/Hells_Best_Kept_Secret_Ray_Comfort_2005.mp3

Also I must have been mistaken in my OP, the sermon is a typical full-length sermon approximately 50 minutes long. It is WELL worth listening to the whole thing. Why not even burn it to a CD and keep it, and even share that message with someone else? It could very well save someone's soul if the message sinks in.

*********************************

 

[childeye]

Ok I am gaining some insight.

I think you are doing your position a bit of a dis service by calling them liars. Perhaps they a just honestly wrong?

Can a sinner get into Heaven. Obviously, as all humans are flawed sinners. I learned that the death of Jesus was to forgive sin not eradicate it. Of course being saved does not make one a perfect human.

Dear eddy, thank you for the benefit of the doubt. There is also an alternative deduction rather than honestly wrong or a liar. There are semantics. Humans are flawed sinners as you say, but only because we are of corruptible flesh. With this in mind it is possible to put to death the flesh as in losing one's carnal ego. That means that sin would not be possible in heaven if the self centered ego is in fact dead.