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[_ Old Earth _] HOW ABOUT BEING BOTH? HUH? NO? OK..

  • Thread starter Thread starter Griff
  • Start date Start date

DID THIS CHANGE YOUR THOUGHTS AT ALL?

  • YES

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • MAYBE SO?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1
G

Griff

Guest
GIVE IT A CHANCE YOU ACCEPTING AND LOVING CHRISTIANS

Concerning Evolution
By: Clay Griffith

Let me preface this by saying that this is simply an essay of opinion. If you should choose to read further that is your’ decision. This essay is nothing more than me expressing my opinions and views in type. You, as the thoughtful, intelligent, person that you are, must consider these arguments as opinions and then and only then form your own opinions from them. Lastly, I do not care what your opinion of my faith is so don’t even bother.

Let me start by giving you some background. As a young child my father who at the time was a policeman began to daily teach my brother and I of one of his favorite things, science. Nightly we would learn of chemistry, biology, and physics. Also as a young child, I became a Methodist. The mixture of these historically divided fields of study since the earliest stages of my life have helped me to develop the following views.
Most will argue that evolution and Christianity are polar opposites. In fact most will argue that if one claims to be a Christian and supports the theory of evolution then they need to reevaluate their faith and most importantly be “savedâ€Â. However, in my views this is not the case. After all I am a Christian-evolutionist.
Let’s consider an example. Generally, in nature the male of a species will compete with the other males of his species for the privilege of mating with a certain number of females with the sole goal of spreading his genes so that he may be continued into the future. Now in theory if this male is successful in competing with the other males many times his genes or traits will be continued in many offspring. Now, consider the bird. Many types of birds are known for their unique forms of attracting females. Some types attract by color, some by dance, and others by building nests. Now imagine a bird with small hands equipped with fingers at the ends of his wings. Imagine his astoundingly superior ability to build a nest over his competition. He is able to not only employ his beak and feet as the other birds do but he is also able to build with hands. Now imagine the bird-mansion that this small bird would be able to build and consider the amount of offspring he would create (all with hands of-course) with the many birdets that he would undoubtedly attract. Eventually, assuming that these offspring continue their father’s effect on the females, birds with hands would become common.
Now consider the traditional Christian view. In this case the bird with hands would never exist because birds with hands have not existed since the beginning of time.
Or have they?
I have physically existed for a little longer than 18 years. However, my soul or “life†has existed since “The Beginningâ€Â. This is a traditional Christian belief. God created me “In the Beginning†and my life on earth was begun in 1986. Therefore it is reasonable to say that God did in fact create me in the beginning but I came at the time he planned for me to come.
Now let’s return to the bird with hands. Considering my existence one will see that this bird with hands has always existed (for the sake of this example) and that just because it has not come does not mean it will not and does also not mean that God didn’t create it “In the Beginningâ€Â. To say that this is impossible is in my opinion slander on God’s divine power.
There are however a few things to take into consideration here. For one, drastic changes in anatomy such as this one do not happen in nature. Another is the possible argument that God created all species in the first days and that they have existed as a species since the beginning so therefore the assumption that birds with hands will appear on earth would be against God’s word.
Now we must examine these arguments.
First off, the bird with hands example is an exaggeration. The changes suggested would take place over many generations over many years. Likely the evolution, if you will, would start with simple stubs on a bird’s wings; basically small featherless bumps. As time progresses this bird’s offspring would gradually develop more and more advanced hands until an effective building tool would be created. The latter argument is a bit more complex for it does in fact refute many of my suggestions. In order for a person to comprehend evolution as part of creation they must see species as simple human classifications of animals that resemble each other physically and genetically. It is necessary to see each of God’s creations as individual. The bird with hands is after all a bird, just as I, a human with blue eyes am a human. Evolution is just this. The part that angers many Christians is the statement that humans evolved from monkeys which, if read literally, gives the image of a female monkey giving birth to Adam, the biblical first man. However, if this scenario is considered in depth as the bird with hands was, it is reasonable to guess that over many years the monkey would become more and more human of for no other reason than to survive. You might think of this as adaptation over many years which is in fact the basis of evolution. Might God have actually created all life in those first days just as an artist creates his piece long before it is made for the world to see? After all aren’t all things possible through God?
Now I’d like to address another assumption I once heard an agnostic state. He declared that if a baby human were cloned, that would be evidence of the falseness of creationism. Many evolutionists likely agree with this assumption simply because if humans “created†life then this would conquer the belief that God is the only means of creating life. However, like the case of evolution, the cloning of a human could be explained. Instead of a body being created in the traditional way of sexual reproduction it would be created in a laboratory. Either way God would still be the sender of the soul. And after all, cloning as it is today, still must use an existing entity to create a new one. However if future developments in biological engineering were to occur that would eliminate the need for pre-existing life, or if scientist were to construct totally new beings, not mere clones with a few extra parts, who’s to say that God wasn’t the one to actually create that life? Don’t most Christians believe that God is the initial creator of all things? And isn’t it reasonable to these Christians to believe that if a man were to build a car, it is still initially God’s creation?
The days of Christians being forced to naïveté in order to adhere to the teachings of the Bible must end. If we as Christians can open our minds to the logic of science without fearing betrayal to our faith we will be able to better understand our creation and hopefully finally realize the logic of our faith.

GOD BLESS

OH AND YEAH THIS IS MY VERY FIRST POST SO IF YOU THINK I SHOULD JUST SHUT UP, PLEASE SAY SO.
 
SIGNS OF INCOMPETANCY ON MY PART.

FROM THE AUTHOR, I FORGOT SOMETHING. I ALSO BELIEVE THAT THIS THEORY SUPPORTS THE BIG BANG THEORY. PRETTY SELF EXPLANATORY.
 
Griff, I commend you on your open mind and willingness to follow whatever is true.

I have a couple of observations:

1. Cloning a human would not be a confirmation of evolution or a refutation of creationism.

2. Humans didn't evolve from monkeys. Monkeys are quite evolved in their own way and could not give rise to humans like us.

You are, however, onto some important concepts in evolution. I would suggest that you do a little study.

With the outlook you have, you should go far.

God Bless,
The Barbarian
 
TRUE THAT BARBARIAN. YEAH THANKYOU FOR THE RESPONSE. YEAH I BASICALLY, BASICALLY, AGREE WITH BOTH OF YOUR REPLIES. THATS COOL THOUGH, I DONT NEED TO AGREE JUST LIKE YOU DONT NEED TO AGREE BUT REGARDLESS WE SEEM TO AGREE. AWESOME. YEAH I DONT KNOW ABOUT THE MONKEYS. I THINK ITS POSSIBLE THAT WE EVOLVED FROM MONKEYS BUT REALLY I DONT KNOW. DOSNT EFFECT THE POINT THAT MUCH PUT I DO AGREE, THEY HAVE EVOLVED QUITE ABIT ON THEIR OWN. SO SWEET.
 
I have a few comments, Griff.

Firstly, you post IMO, seemed like a statement made out of fear of embarrassment. Something, I think, too many people do. Evolution is the "god" of science. To accept another explanation, and maybe even a different version of evolution, will usually be considered "scientific heresy".

Next, your first part of the argument for evolution is not at all controversial. It is simple "survival of the fittest". Nothing not already well established. I can't even think of any kind of creationists that reject that(except possibly by different terms-same concept.)

Also, you think that maybe humans evolved from monkeys....something most evolutionists would reject. I understand though, that different people have different ideas of what evolved from what, I'm not being critical at all, it is your opinion.

Lastly, I am curious about your beleif in an eternal human soul. I don't know if most evolutionary creationists agree with that or not. Personally, I can't see why any of them would.

___I hope I didn't come off too critical, :)
 
Firstly, you post IMO, seemed like a statement made out of fear of embarrassment. Something, I think, too many people do. Evolution is the "god" of science.

Actually, it's just one of many theories of modern science. Science is unable to have "gods", since it can't approach the supernatural. There is a basic assumption that governs science, though. It is that the universe is knowable, and that the rules have been the same since the beginning.

To accept another explanation, and maybe even a different version of evolution, will usually be considered "scientific heresy".

Science rewards the successful "heretics", with fame and respect. What's a successful "heretic?" One who proposes a theory that does a better job of explaining the data than the present one. They are the people who get the greatest rewards in science.

Next, your first part of the argument for evolution is not at all controversial. It is simple "survival of the fittest". Nothing not already well established. I can't even think of any kind of creationists that reject that(except possibly by different terms-same concept.)

They accept it, but not the consequences of it.

Lastly, I am curious about your beleif in an eternal human soul. I don't know if most evolutionary creationists agree with that or not. Personally, I can't see why any of them would.

Griff, Marc thinks "evolutionist" means "creationist", in some cases. It's a personal definition. Just be aware of it, so you aren't surprised when he switches definitions.

Most Christians acknowledge that evolution and their faith are compatible, which is perhaps what he means. Hard to say with Marc.
 
I would suggest that the author learn not to yell.(Please turn off capslock)
 
To my recent critic........

HEY SYNTAX!!!... Listen man, or woman, whatever, I had a reason for typing in caps. The original document was written by me a couple of months ago in response to a teacher who told me that if one believes in evolution, they can not go to heaven. The funny thing was, after I asked him how a person does go to heaven, he responded by saying simply, "accept the Lord Jesus into your heart." Just a bit contradictory but hey, thats grounds for a whole other forum so I'll drop it. Anyway Syntax, my reason was simply personal. I needed a way to distinguish for myself new text from old text simple as that. Think of it as self-respect for my original work. The reasoning for my forum title being in all caps was that I felt more people would read it if caught their eye. This reasoning came after I found myself reading through all the hundreds of titles yesterday and noticing that I was focusing more on those that were in all caps. So, there you go my anal-retentive brother. My added posts within the forum were in all caps simply because I forgot to turn off caps lock. Didn't realize it would bother you. Sorry :cry: I think you should check out Maddox.xmission.com, particularly the hate mail section. You two would like eachother. I personally love Maddox so I sympathize with your request. And to my new friend The Barbarian, thankyou for the support man. I like that there are others out there that share an honest approach to logic and faith. That and maybe a sence of humor.
Lastly I'd like to re-assert my friend Syntax, listen, relax, focus on the topic of the paper, it's an important subject in our faith today and for you to ignor it makes me think that you felt defiant but could think of no actual rebuttal, which does little for your case if you are against mine. However maybe you were just being funny, maybe you agreed with me, maybe you were just using the only counter-attack on my logic you could think of, to insult trivial grammatical issues to belittle my point. Not very effective. Next time say something meaningful. THANKYOU!!! LOL JK TTYL ETC... I'm being sarcastic. Just thought you should know. Wasn't sure you'd get it.
 
SyntaxVorlon was just being helpful. It is hard to read in all caps anymore. My brain processes that as screaming nowadays.

SyntaxVorlon is not Christian so he may not have felt the article applied to him.

When I was Christian, I believed that you could believe in evolution and still go to heaven. I know many Christians like that.

Quath
 
To Quath the great.

Alright Quath, I have no beef with your reply so thankyou. I was simply confused about his suggestion's tone. But, I assume you are correct. Not that it effects me, after all you have probably already realized that I am quite the liberal christian, but I'd like to ask a non-condecending question. What exactly drove you from the faith? Again, I know that it is probably commom for someone to try and talk you into having faith or believing or whatever but I promise I have no such intent. Just purly out of interest. You can decide if you wish to reply or not. I'd understand if you felt against it. Whatever. Again man, thankyou for the response. And to Syntax, I appologize full heartedly for my quick defense. Over and out.
 
This web board has a good spectrum of Christians, so it is always interesting getting new perspectives.

As for me, I would say the major turning point was needing physical proof of God. When I was 8, I wanted to go to jails to convert criminals into believing in God so they would straighten out their lives. So I thought about how I would go about it. The main proof I had of God was He was the one that made babies. (I had not learned of sex then.) So my faith was grounded in the idea of physical proof.

When I learned of sex and Santa Claus (two concepts that should not be in the same sentence), I began to question. (Around age 10.) Basically, I realized that I believed in Santa Claus and his magic mostly because I really wanted him to be real. So I looked at my track record of believing in magical beings that were not real like the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny. Then I realized I had no real proof of God either.

It was a scary thought, but one that would not go away. I prayed for about 3 years for some proof of God so I would know I waqs on the right path. But nothing came of it. Finally, at 13, I gave up pretending to believe. I decided that if God were good, He would know I tried to believe but couldn't make myself and God would not send me to hell for that. If God did send me to hell, then I would have to conclude He was not a god I would have wanted to worship.

I have a fair amount of atheist and Christian friends (more on the liberal side). We get along pretty well. So I hold nothing against Christianity pe se. What I do have a problem with is dogma. I find that to be a scourge on humanity.

Quath
 
To Quath, again.

Very well Quath, see my idea the reason I asked is basically that I was wondering if you went through the same changes that I am curently going through. You see, I as of late have been challenging myself alot. I also have realized my past belief patterns and that concerns me. Things like evolution, the Big Bang, galactic life, and even things like centuries of biblical translation have begun to infringe on the way I have been tought to think of God. Currently I see God as an all knowing spirit. Not really a singular soul but more of this infinite being that we are all part of. Really something like transendental belief. It's basically like what is encountered in the Final Fantasy movie. I'm not nerdy and no I did not form my opinion from the movie, it just so happened that I shared the idea. Anyway, that's my current thinking. I also see heaven as being at one with this all knowing mass and basically becoming part of this forever nirvana of consciencness. I'm a bit of a hippy. And yes, I do still believe in Jesus but that becomes a bit harder to explain. It works in my head.
And yeah, I think you'll go to heaven. Well, I should, I am after all a universal salvationist. I don't see how any loving christian can say that our God will send some peaceful, and far better than I'll ever be Buddist Monk to burn in Hell. Makes no sense.
Cool though man. Thankyou for the answer. Just seeing if I was on the same path and not that that's a bad thing just curious. Good Luck and for you...
Life Bless I suppose. Hasta
 
Actually, it's just one of many theories of modern science. Science is unable to have "gods", since it can't approach the supernatural. There is a basic assumption that governs science, though. It is that the universe is knowable, and that the rules have been the same since the beginning.

Notice the quotation marks? I wasn't speaking literally. I was speaking metaphorically.

Science rewards the successful "heretics", with fame and respect. What's a successful "heretic?" One who proposes a theory that does a better job of explaining the data than the present one. They are the people who get the greatest rewards in science.

Same as above.

They accept it, but not the consequences of it.

Depends on what you mean.

Griff, Marc thinks "evolutionist" means "creationist", in some cases. It's a personal definition. Just be aware of it, so you aren't surprised when he switches definitions.

Most Christians acknowledge that evolution and their faith are compatible, which is perhaps what he means. Hard to say with Marc.



Griff,

Be cautious of what Barbarian may try to convince you of. Creationism encompasses Theistic evolution(aka, Evolutionary creationism), proggressive creationism, and other evolutionary beleifs involving God as the Creator. I have already substanciated this, I urge you to read my first post in the topic "Terms of Definitions"-This defines creationism and what it encompasses. Barbarian gave definitions also, and I suggest you read those also, just be aware that his given definitions are not the sole ones.

I think you have noble intentions, Griff-I think you desire to hold true and unbiased beleifs. I hope you stay around on the boards. It would be nice to have more people that are less arrogant about their beliefs. (I am guilty of this sometimes, as are many others on this board.)

I thought I might add that if you want to draw more readers to your posts or personalize your posts to make them stand out from others, you might want to try writing in a different color or in bold, italics, etc.
 
Liberal Christian???? Oxymoron if you ask me..

I will not accept evolution. I do not ask the Word of God to fit with science but demand that science fit with the Word of God.


If there is such proof of evolution, why has not one person claimed the $50,000 being offered by Dr. Hovind of Creation Science Evangelism as a reward for showing it to him??

No, the theory of evolution has been so slammed into the minds of the world that they accept it as truth but in reality there is much more reason to believe in an intelligent Creator then in the random coming together of the world.

Please, if you think I am wrong and can prove it, contact Dr. Hovind and get that big check. It is still waiting for someone to claim it.... Tick tock, tick tock...........................................................
 
Dude Lyric, you are freaking hilarious. Seriously, and I am not being sarcastic or fake here, I really did start my asthma up laughing at your first line. Come on man, lighten up. You are seriously the type of person I love. So closed minded, I can just imagine you reading my paper, or not reading it just scanning, and the face you were probably making. You were probably sitting there with your arms crossed and a poutty lip on your face shaking your head back and forth saying "NO!, I will NOT believe this bullcrud, it's against the lord my loving creator and everything I stand for! Someone save this boy! AhGhGhHGhhh!!!"
Really, the theory of evolution isn't proven!? NO!
Lyric, it's not the type of theory that can be. What are we going to cut open a muskrat and see that its insides start out as a tree and as you go further from the center the rings of time become animal? No way. And before one of you smart guys decide it's necessary to say so, no the theory of evolution does in no way state that an animal came from a tree. It's just an observation of what seems to be very logical!!! You are probably the type that professes their belief in adaptation but is stone cold on evolution because "Billy Grahm says so". Dude it's only adaptation over THOUSANDS AND YES,,,,, MILLIONS OF YEARS!!!!! Wha!?
It makes sense and you cant really deny the fact that in some way it at least seems apparent. Stop being so afraid of hellfire and brimstone brought on by some logical observation of change and similarities. I'm sure The Man's up there right now cracking up at the fact that forums exist over this stupid topic.
Here's the bottom line. Evolution is ok. You can agree or not agree. Nobody cares. And as long as you still include your creator in the mix, as I very obviously did, he dosn't care either. And yeah, I asked him.
 
Griff.

If you went to a public school, I would have that teacher charged with harrasment and unfair teachign practices, and go every length to have them fired.

I am all for teachers teaching, But by trying to force their religion onto others, or use there religion to scare ppl into doing things, is wrong.
 
Griff said:
Dude Lyric, you are freaking hilarious. Seriously, and I am not being sarcastic or fake here, I really did start my asthma up laughing at your first line. Come on man, lighten up. You are seriously the type of person I love. So closed minded, I can just imagine you reading my paper, or not reading it just scanning, and the face you were probably making. You were probably sitting there with your arms crossed and a poutty lip on your face shaking your head back and forth saying "NO!, I will NOT believe this bullcrud, it's against the lord my loving creator and everything I stand for! Someone save this boy! AhGhGhHGhhh!!!"
Really, the theory of evolution isn't proven!? NO!
Lyric, it's not the type of theory that can be. What are we going to cut open a muskrat and see that its insides start out as a tree and as you go further from the center the rings of time become animal? No way. And before one of you smart guys decide it's necessary to say so, no the theory of evolution does in no way state that an animal came from a tree. It's just an observation of what seems to be very logical!!! You are probably the type that professes their belief in adaptation but is stone cold on evolution because "Billy Grahm says so". Dude it's only adaptation over THOUSANDS AND YES,,,,, MILLIONS OF YEARS!!!!! Wha!?
It makes sense and you cant really deny the fact that in some way it at least seems apparent. Stop being so afraid of hellfire and brimstone brought on by some logical observation of change and similarities. I'm sure The Man's up there right now cracking up at the fact that forums exist over this stupid topic.
Here's the bottom line. Evolution is ok. You can agree or not agree. Nobody cares. And as long as you still include your creator in the mix, as I very obviously did, he dosn't care either. And yeah, I asked him.

You make some very bold statements in there about someone who you do not know. Isn't that quaint?

You find it hilarious that I adhere to the Word of God? I find it sad that you pander to the world and try to fit God into their box so you can look good and "progressive." Truly sad.

I am in no way "afraid of hellfire and brimstone." I have been rescued from the need to have any fear. Don't minimize the wonders of the Salvation message with condescention.
 
Re: To Quath, again.

Griff said:
Very well Quath, see my idea the reason I asked is basically that I was wondering if you went through the same changes that I am curently going through. You see, I as of late have been challenging myself alot. I also have realized my past belief patterns and that concerns me. Things like evolution, the Big Bang, galactic life, and even things like centuries of biblical translation have begun to infringe on the way I have been tought to think of God. Currently I see God as an all knowing spirit. Not really a singular soul but more of this infinite being that we are all part of. Really something like transendental belief.
I went through a phase like that. I thought there could be a way that humans maybe evolved spirits. (I liked the idea of not really dieing.) I based it more on the Poltergeist movie where souls seemed to clump together. It wasn't that I believed in it so much as I thought it was a nice possibility. However, over time, I fell away from that because I could not convince myself of a way it could happen.

A good article that talks about the idea of a spirit or soul in us is at Ebon Musing's Ghost in the Machine. He tries to show that a soul doesn't fit in well with how we mechanically operate. It doesn't prove there is no soul or spirit, but it defines the limits of what one can be.

It's basically like what is encountered in the Final Fantasy movie. I'm not nerdy and no I did not form my opinion from the movie, it just so happened that I shared the idea. Anyway, that's my current thinking. I also see heaven as being at one with this all knowing mass and basically becoming part of this forever nirvana of consciencness. I'm a bit of a hippy. And yes, I do still believe in Jesus but that becomes a bit harder to explain. It works in my head.
Yeah, I see more and more of this type of belief as time goes on. It is kind of the evolution of religion. You take the good from a religion and toss out the bad. The Christians took Yaweh and tossed out the death penality laws (mosly). People today are taking Christianity and seeing Jesus and God in less dogmatic positions and more philosophical ideals. Hell becomes de-emphasized and salvation, giving to the poor and turning the cheek become more emphasized.

Cool though man. Thankyou for the answer. Just seeing if I was on the same path and not that that's a bad thing just curious. Good Luck and for you...
Life Bless I suppose. Hasta
I think as long as you resolve not to lie to yourself and if you keep looking for answers to life, you will do fine.

Take care,
Quath
 
Alright, I've already typed this once and then my computer shut off so I'm gonna do it again but shorten it a bit.

Lyric, You First
First off, I never expected to change your mind. I knew that no matter what I typed, you would still reply firmly. That's ok. You and I are of different denominations very obviously. I am Methodist. You are probably Mormon judging by your location but that would be very simple of me to assume that you are. What do I know you might even be a Methodist like me. You just dont seem like the type. That's all.
Now, to what really pisses me off. You said and I quote...
"You make some very bold statements in there about someone who you do not know. Isn't that quaint?"
How funny.
This coming from a guy who assumes very blindly that I have adopted my ideas in order to conform to the pressures of the world. Not so buddy. My beliefs were created over years of thought and study. Not only do I read my Bible but I also read science magazines and watch The Science Channel daily. I don't give a flying edited what the world thinks and I don't expect it to care what I think. Read the first paragraph of my essay buddy. Really. How dare you accuse me of seeking acceptance from the world by changing my RELIGEOUS beliefs. That isn't me. And honestly, you did accomplish a very impressive thing with your statement. You threw the most personal insult at me possible. Good job/God bless. And no, I do not find it hilarious that you adhere to the word of God. I find it hilarious that you assume I do not. In the end though, I've spent years debating with guys like you and you know, most of them are still my friends. That's just the way we work. We don't agree but we're not changing eachother. Yes, I'm a liberal christian but it's not an oxymoron. I just happen to think a little more liberally than you do. Look up the word liberal. And in the end, God loves me. And maybe you'd like to assume that he loves you a bit more because you choose not to think. That's fine. See you in Heaven.

Now to peace4all,
Yes it was in a public school but the teachers and I were having a personal conversation in an off-period. They knew my stance and maybe they wanted to change me but hell, that's the way we're taught. I personally choose to let people be who they are like you believe but they obviously felt like it was there God-sent duty to save my soul so I was not offended. Thanks for the post though. I do agree. Keep writing and keep up that amazing and loving train of thought.

And to my friend Quath,
Thankyou so much for all the advice and honesty. It's nice to know that there are those like you out on this forum that are willing to let things work out in an honest way. I am comfortable where I am in my faith right now and I am in no way lying to myself. There's no reason for me to. I live in a small Texas town that is 99.999999999% right wing hard core baptist and they already know where I stand so I don't really need to lie to anybody. And for myself, I'm always honest to myself. I just follow what I believe. I don't need to follow a leader in any form. Thankyou so very much for the care though and again, it is very nice to have honest and open individuals out there to share their story. Keep up the open mind.

And to all of you guys.
CHANGE THE WORLD AND BE REMEMBERED WHEN YOU DIE.
Hasta

Note: swearing using alternate characters is a violation of the TOS.
 
I will only respond to one comment on the open forum. I certainly am not a mormon. I used to be but I found Jesus and decided to leave that far behind. Today I am not anything but a sinner who has been saved by the Grace of Jesus. The buildings I choose to attend do not define my Christianity.
 
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