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[_ Old Earth _] HOW ABOUT BEING BOTH? HUH? NO? OK..

  • Thread starter Thread starter Griff
  • Start date Start date

DID THIS CHANGE YOUR THOUGHTS AT ALL?

  • YES

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • MAYBE SO?

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  • Total voters
    1
To Lyric's Dad.

Good deal Lyric.
Sorry about all the malice being thrown around and I look forward to speaking to you more in the forums. I wouldn't have cared if you were mormon, I just made an observation that you might be. I don't really care. Anyway, thanks for the posts and God bless.
Hasta
 
Barbarian observes:
Actually, it's just one of many theories of modern science. Science is unable to have "gods", since it can't approach the supernatural. There is a basic assumption that governs science, though. It is that the universe is knowable, and that the rules have been the same since the beginning.

I was speaking metaphorically.

That's fine.

Barbarian observes:
Science rewards the successful "heretics", with fame and respect. What's a successful "heretic?" One who proposes a theory that does a better job of explaining the data than the present one. They are the people who get the greatest rewards in science.

Barbarian observes:
Griff, Marc thinks "evolutionist" means "creationist", in some cases. It's a personal definition. Just be aware of it, so you aren't surprised when he switches definitions.

...Most Christians acknowledge that evolution and their faith are compatible, which is perhaps what he means. Hard to say with Marc.

Be cautious of what Barbarian may try to convince you of. Creationism encompasses Theistic evolution(aka, Evolutionary creationism),

This is DM's private definition. Hardly anyone I know or read thinks evolutionists are creationists.

Just keep in mind that when DM says "creationist", he might mean "evolutionist." If you aren't sure, just ask him.
 
Barbarian, I think what you are saying may be confusing Griff. I don't really believe that you mis-understand me as much as you appear to....So, let me just explain to Griff...and Barbarian, I humbly ask you not to claim that my definitions are inncorrect without giving reason.(I.e, claiming I have personal definitions and not substanciating.) Just stay calm about it, maybe we just do not communicate well....


That's fine.

Why wouldn't it be? I just don't think you understood what I was saying...but let us not start another debate.

______

Anyway, Griff:

Griff, Marc thinks "evolutionist" means "creationist", in some cases. It's a personal definition. Just be aware of it, so you aren't surprised when he switches definitions.

Griff, If you have doughts of what these terms mean and encompass, look at my topic, "Definitions of Terms", on this board. Or check Wikipedia, it is extremely useful and filled with information.

Also, check Barbarian's given definitions in that thread as well. His were correct as well as the ones I gave, although his didn't include all definitions, just the ones most often used to define the term "creationist".
And also note that I have never switched definitions, don't ask me why Barbar did that, I don't know...

This is DM's private definition. Hardly anyone I know or read thinks evolutionists are creationists.

Although Barbar is off about me having a private definition, Griff, he is right about this: Many people are ignorant of what creationists are or can be.

Just keep in mind that when DM says "creationist", he might mean "evolutionist." If you aren't sure, just ask him.

Good idea, Barbar.

Griff, I will be happy to clear up any misconceptions about creationists and creationism. Anything at all, just ask me.
 
Lyric's Dad said:
Liberal Christian???? Oxymoron if you ask me..

I will not accept evolution. I do not ask the Word of God to fit with science but demand that science fit with the Word of God...

Where is the proof that the Word of God is really the Word of God? Why did you accept THAT by faith to begin with?

[quote:20230]If there is such proof of evolution, why has not one person claimed the $50,000 being offered by Dr. Hovind of Creation Science Evangelism as a reward for showing it to him??...

Please, if you think I am wrong and can prove it, contact Dr. Hovind and get that big check. It is still waiting for someone to claim it.... Tick tock, tick tock...........................................................
[/quote:20230]

And who determines what is PROOF and not just "evidence" in this challenge? Hovind, of course :wink:

How much do you think would be a fitting amount to offer if someone could prove the BIBLE is true? Probably a lot more than $50,000?
 
For me, the jury's still out on the whole origins thing. Right now, I'm leaning towards the day-age theory (the days of Genesis 1 metaphorically represent large periods of time) but I reserve the right to change my mind. :-D

I'm just glad that my salvation does not hinge upon a perfect understanding of how God created everything (as Griff alluded to earlier) :-)
 
I believe that we have a God that says what he means for our limited understanding. When he talks about creation taking him six days and he makes the representation of the morning and the evening making one day, then that is what I believe. I believe that when Peter suggests that one day is as one thousand years to God he means that God is not contrained by time as He created it, and that the one thousand years could be an item of knowledge that God's six days of creation and one day of rest indicate the total time that mankind would playout God's plan; six thousand years of man way of handling things until the one thousand year rest of Jesus' millenium reign.
 
Well what an interesting thread.

I have to say that I'm a stone cold creationist. Why? Because for me what God says is true. Because I believe the bible fully and in its entirety and I also believe Isaiah 55:8,9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways." says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth. So are My ways higher than your ways. And My thoughts than your thoughts." (NKJV).

I do have a few questions for evolutionist.

1) How was the matter created/formed that caused the big bang?
2) What/how was the goo/slime put there to form fish/apes whatever? What caused these things to begin to form in the first place?
3) How can you really prove that the earth has been here millions of years when after a certain point it would have to be ones best quess? I mean we have records (I think) that prove thousands of years but millions?

I notice that many arguments usually speak about things after the beginning but not about the beginning itself.
I'm not asking these questions to be sarcastic (I am in no way a scientist) I only wanted to know what evolutionist believe about how everything got here from the beginning before things started to take place over time.


peace V
 
cuiq said:
1) How was the matter created/formed that caused the big bang?
The Big Bang is a tough concept because it involves physics we don't see everyday. I can say what my favorite (simplified) version is at this point:

You start with nothingness. The only things that can exist are something and anti-something that add to nothingness. A particle and its antiparticle spring into being, but they repel each other (this is before time so it is instant) and push apart to infinity. As they push they spawn matter to form and with gravity to form with it so that the energy added is 0. An infinute universe forms filled with matter that is highly dense. The universe expands further into infinity and cools everthing down until it can form atoms.

2) What/how was the goo/slime put there to form fish/apes whatever? What caused these things to begin to form in the first place?
Once you have stars made out of helium and hydrogen, they undergo fusion to make other elements. When a star explodes early in the life of the universe, it creates the elements higher than lead (up to uranium). Everything settles back down into a new star with many elements that eventually form the Earth.

Early earth atmosphere mixed with lightening creates amino acids. At some point over he earth some chemical reaction became self repeating. We don't know what this was. Maybe some amino acids joined. Maybe a polypeptice. Maybe it formed in the pores of a rock. Maybe near a sulpher vent. Once you get life starting, evolution takes off.

Evolution is not "accident." It is an algorithm. Vary something. Measure it. Select the best. Repeat. This algorithm can describe the diversity of life.

3) How can you really prove that the earth has been here millions of years when after a certain point it would have to be ones best quess? I mean we have records (I think) that prove thousands of years but millions?
There are many ways. We can look at stars and see how stars develop over time and realize it takes a lot of time.

Here is one of the simpliest. We know that our galaxy is about 65,000 light years across and we have found galaxies billions of light years away. That means that light had to travel for billions of years to reach us. If God created the universe 6,000 years ago, he would have to had created the light in flight in the proper spectrum (we can detect the elements inside of another star). That is a lot of work to hide the creation and to make it look old.

Some Creationists have suggested a change in the speed of light. However, that doesn't work. The speed of light is really equal to exactly 1. What "c" does is convert seconds to meters. In other words, we measure time in meters or miles. We can not change "c" any more than we can change "12 inches per foot." But say you could change the speed. This would change distances so that we would not notice. If "c" doubled to be twice as fast, then space would double in size to compensate.

I notice that many arguments usually speak about things after the beginning but not about the beginning itself.
The big answer is we don't have a lot of confidence in the state of the universe right at the big bang. We don't understand gravity and quantum mechanics that well. However, we do know some things. For one, we know that either time started then or time was a quantum dimension (too small to really exist).

One way that may help you understand the debate is by looking at history. Christians did not want to believe that the Earth moved around the sun. The Bible is quite clear that the Earth does not move. God made it fixed and immovable on its foundations. When God wanted to lenghten the day, He stoped the Sun from moving, not the Earth from spinning. So there was a huge resistance to accepting the Earth moved because you would have to say the Bible was wrong.

Yet people reconciled it once the evidence was overwhelming. This is the same problem happening with the Big Bang and Evolution.

The easiest answer I have seen to help people reconcile science and religion is that science is "how" and religion is "why."

Quath
 
Lyric's Dad said:
Liberal Christian???? Oxymoron if you ask me..

I will not accept evolution. I do not ask the Word of God to fit with science but demand that science fit with the Word of God.
And I thought DeNial was a river in Egypt. I can respect the not acceptance because you don't want thing, can't really argue against that.


If there is such proof of evolution, why has not one person claimed the $50,000 being offered by Dr. Hovind of Creation Science Evangelism as a reward for showing it to him??
Because what he's asking for is proof of his strawman version of evolution and he pulls in biogenesis in there to. What he wants is unrealistic and he knows it. YECism is a big cash cow for him and he's not going to do anything to jeopardize his little empire.

You know if someone actually falsified evolution (showed it to be wrong) then they would get the Nobel Prize and something like $1 million dollars for it. Gee, I wonder why Hovind *cough fraud cough* hasn't submitted a paper yet?

No, the theory of evolution has been so slammed into the minds of the world that they accept it as truth but in reality there is much more reason to believe in an intelligent Creator then in the random coming together of the world.
The ToE an establish science and is getting stronger as new genetic evidence come to light. It's about as true as any science comes.

Please, if you think I am wrong and can prove it, contact Dr. Hovind and get that big check. It is still waiting for someone to claim it.... Tick tock, tick tock...........................................................
I wanting for him to publish in a peer review journal. Hovind is the PRATT king and knows it which is one reason why he won't debate online.
 
Quath, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate your patience.

This is the part that has me still baffled.

The only things that can exist are something and anti-something that add to nothingness.

I appreciate that you gave me your simplified answer.

However the part that still nags at me is the the "something and anti-something." How did the "something" get there? I guess what I'm trying to say is that for something to form into anything at least one part has to be active, and that one part does not become active by itself. Even if the active is in parts and come together, something has to create these inactive parts that causes them to come together to create active parts and then the process of formation begins. This is the question that for years has caused me to question evolution.

My thoughts are that everything must have a beginning (except God), but for anything to have a beginning it must first be created, but before it is created what puts that something there to even have a beginning.

This is one of the verses that causes this question.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" Jeremiah 1:5a

Again thank you for your time and patience.



peace V
 
cuiq said:
My thoughts are that everything must have a beginning (except God), but for anything to have a beginning it must first be created, but before it is created what puts that something there to even have a beginning.
In a sense, you accept that a perfect and intelligent being capabable of thought and desires can just exist without a cause. Is it so much of a strecth to imagine that instead of an intelligent being that exists without cause, that it was a universe instead?

Even if the active is in parts and come together, something has to create these inactive parts that causes them to come together to create active parts and then the process of formation begins.
Part of the problem is humans have thought that reality would fit in nicely with how we thought it should fit. For example, we thought all orbits would be circular, instead of elliptical as they really are.

Einstein had a hard time with Quantum Mechanics because they implied that probability was fundamental.

Inside our universe we see quantum mechanics at work. Light will travel along and suddenly turn into a positron and an electron and then turn back into light. Space is filled with particles and anti-paricles coming into existance to disappear back into nothingness.

So the quantum answer would be that universes just pop up at random. Some annhiliate and some get pretty big. As long as they add up to "nothing" they can exist. So there may be many universes that are not connected to us. (Or maybe inly one type of universe can form.)

Science does not say there is a God, but it says that if there is one, then with 99%+ certainity, He created the universe via the Big Bang.

Quath
 
Quath thank you for your response. I will consider your words.


peace V
 
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