How about now?

[WyldCyde]

Excellent paste blueberry, I dare any trinitarian to explain that.

WyldCyde

 

[xsearnold]

I believe the Trinity doctrine, properly understood, is essential. There are those who say they do not believe in the doctrine, but their explanations of the alternative tend to be semantic diversions, restating the essence of the Trinity in other terms.

So I believe that the three persons (Godhead) all have to be "Deity" and all have to be in "unity" to the extent that they are inseparable and eternal. The debates tend to be arguments regarding the human understanding of these incomprehensible attributes of God.

 

[Veritas]

Excellent paste blueberry, I dare any trinitarian to explain that.

WyldCyde, we readily admit this is unexplainable, why would we accept that dare?

Sadly enough, most Christians are taught to brush off these matters with words like "It is incomprehensible, that is why it must be true," or "believe blindly or you will lose your soul."? Have we so soon forgotten "For God is not the author of confusion" - 1 Corinthians 14:33 ? Have we so soon forgotten "thou shalt love the Lord thy God ... with all thy mind," Mark 12:30?.

And Blueberry, its not about brushing off those matters, its about being humble and not going beyond what is provided us in the scripture.

Also, 1 Corinthians 14:33 has nothing to do with understanding God so it shouldn't be used in that sense. 1 Corinthians 14:33 is talking about orderly worship.

And Mark 12:30 is not talking about "figuring out" anything, its talking about love. It does not read... Thou shalt figure out the Lord thy God....with all thy mind.

It doesn't say that, it says "LOVE thy God...with all thy mind."

See the difference?
Love, not "figure out"

Look, we're not that smart okay? We definately know that from all the futile philosophies of the world and all our futile efforts to "figure out" life. And the Word reminds us of that:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Corinthians 1:19

His thoughts are definately higher than ours....We know this from scripture (Isaiah 55:8-9). Lets accept what He tells us by faith okay? By taking other verses out of context to try to prove otherwise only causes contradictions.

 

[blueberry pie]

His thoughts are definately higher than ours....We know this from scripture (Isaiah 55:8-9). Lets accept what He tells us by faith okay? By taking other verses out of context to try to prove otherwise only causes contradictions.

Thanks Veritas. I have always appreciated your gentle and respectful attitude towards others. I have never seen you resort to personal attack. God bless you for your humbleness.

Just in case you missed what I said at the start of my last post, I didn't write that article, it was written by a Muslim. In fact, I will go back and take out the ending of that article because it's totally not the reason I posted it and I don't want people to focus on that, but rather, what was said about the Trinity in relation to Christ's death on the cross. Here, I will repost what I was asking through the use of that article:

 

[blueberry pie]

(Article excerpt from: http://www.onet.net/~cathy/alogicalanalysis.htm)
_______________________________________________

For example, if Jesus (pbuh) is part of a divine Trinity which makes up the essence of God Almighty, and if this God is ONE God and not THREE gods, and if Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, then what happened to God Almighty? Did the Trinity die also, or was a third of the Trinity ripped away from the whole, then tortured, killed, and sent to hell for three days, while the remaining two thirds (of God?) remained in it's crippled form a safe distance away?

Who was overseeing the heavens and the earth while all of this was happening? A crippled Trinity? No one? If I am made up of heart, mind, and soul, and one of them dies; what happens to the rest of me? Are they ONE or THREE? If God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three names for the same being, (definition of the "Trinity" required by Isaiah 43:10-11 and many other verses) and not three separate gods, then the "death of Jesus" is just another way of saying "the death of God the 'Father'," which is also another way of saying "the death of the Holy Ghost."

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

http://www.onet.net/~cathy/alogicalanalysis.htm[/url])
_______________________________________________

For example, if Jesus (pbuh) is part of a divine Trinity which makes up the essence of God Almighty, and if this God is ONE God and not THREE gods, and if Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, then what happened to God Almighty? Did the Trinity die also, or was a third of the Trinity ripped away from the whole, then tortured, killed, and sent to hell for three days, while the remaining two thirds (of God?) remained in it's crippled form a safe distance away?

Who was overseeing the heavens and the earth while all of this was happening? A crippled Trinity? No one? If I am made up of heart, mind, and soul, and one of them dies; what happens to the rest of me? Are they ONE or THREE? If God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three names for the same being, (definition of the "Trinity" required by Isaiah 43:10-11 and many other verses) and not three separate gods, then the "death of Jesus" is just another way of saying "the death of God the 'Father'," which is also another way of saying "the death of the Holy Ghost."

[/quote:1a5d3]

Before the fourth century, Christians believed the Word of John 1:1 was that dead flesh in the tomb.

After the fourth century they denied the Word was that dead flesh in the tomb because it did not fit their newly developed Trinity. See 2 Jn 1:7.

A modified form of the teaching John warned about in his first letter.

JMW

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Corinthians 1:19

Veritas, Paul is not there talking about worldly philosophies. He is talking about theology as philosophy about God versus the wisdom of God which is Jesus Christ and suffering in his name.

See 1 Cor 1:12.

JMW

 

[Veritas]

JMW wrote:

Veritas, Paul is not there talking about worldly philosophies. He is talking about theology as philosophy about God versus the wisdom of God which is Jesus Christ and suffering in his name.

See 1 Cor 1:12.

JMW, I agree that Paul is addressing divisions in the church in 1 Cor 1:12 and affiming unity in Christ. However, Paul does indeed go on to compare worldly philosophies to the wisdom of Christ.

I just didn't post the rest of Paul's message thinking it would be readily understood:

Here is a broader view of Paul's message:

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Corinthians 1:19-21

JMW, I'm curious as to why you have a contention with me on this point.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

JMW wrote:

Veritas, Paul is not there talking about worldly philosophies. He is talking about theology as philosophy about God versus the wisdom of God which is Jesus Christ and suffering in his name.

See 1 Cor 1:12.

JMW, I agree that Paul is addressing divisions in the church in 1 Cor 1:12 and affiming unity in Christ. However, Paul does indeed go on to compare worldly philosophies to the wisdom of Christ.

I just didn't post the rest of Paul's message thinking it would be readily understood:

Here is a broader view of Paul's message:

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Corinthians 1:19-21

JMW, I'm curious as to why you have a contention with me on this point.

In 1 Corinthians 1 to 4 Paul is dealing with one matter. The church was splitting into factions based on the respective teachings of the aforementioned apostles in verse 1:12 including Paul himself. Paul is telling them why this is a very bad idea. They were following the conceptual wisdom of the apostles and putting their faith in those concepts instead of Christ himself. Paul is putting his own wisdom about Jesus in the category of human/worldly wisdom. That is why Paul goes on to say:

"When I came to you, brethren, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling; and my speech and my message were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."

And he ends his whole argument by saying

" For the kingdom of God is not a matter of words but of power." (4:20)

Paul considers all theological wisdom to be "straw."

The wisdom of God is Jesus, not ideas about Jesus. Today, many people do not understand the difference.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospe ... r1to4.html

JMW

 

[Veritas]

JMW, really, why do you have a contention here?

I know Paul is addressing divisions in the church, but he still talks about worldly philosophies as I just showed.

Here is the breakdown:
A. Fact of the Divisions (1:10-4:21)
B. Cause of the Divisions (1:18-3:4)
1. A wrong conception of the Christian message (1:18-3:4)
2. A wrong conception of Christian ministry and ministers (3:5-4:5)
3. A wrong conception of the Christian (4:14-21)

I'm not seeing your point clearly JMW, what are you trying to get at?

 

[Free]

Blueberry,

I realize you didn't write that article, but to quote from a Muslim source regarding Christ's deity or the Trinity is not good at all. Islam has a very deficient Christology (a reason they are Christian heretics), as do many Christians. As such, they ask the wrong questions. This is no way whatsoever disproves the Trinity; it is a none issue.

The problem is that in the rational West, people want answers for everything, and many try to give them. The fact is, Christ was the Spirit-filled God-man; this Scripture is absolutely clear on. But the Incarnation is one of the great mysteries of the Christianity that cannot and will not be explained. People need to learn to be happy to just settle with the fact that unexplainable mysteries exist in Christianity.

To loosely quote a prof of mine: "As soon as you spilt the mystery, heresy is just around the corner."

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Blueberry,

I realize you didn't write that article, but to quote from a Muslim source regarding Christ's deity or the Trinity is not good at all.

Why not? If they pose good challenging questions you should be thankful to have them and answer them.

Islam has a very deficient Christology (a reason they are Christian heretics), as do many Christians. As such, they ask the wrong questions. This is no way whatsoever disproves the Trinity; it is a none issue.

All you are doing here is advocating the idea, "don't listen to anyone but a Trinitarian" and forget about the problem questions anyone else poses.

The problem is that in the rational West, people want answers for everything, and many try to give them.

Trinitarians developed their doctrines from reason and logic. Hence, they better have answers.

The fact is, Christ was the Spirit-filled God-man; this Scripture is absolutely clear on.

No, it is not. It never makes him a God-man.

But the Incarnation is one of the great mysteries of the Christianity that cannot and will not be explained.

Nothing hard about it at all. The Word who was god, spirit, emptied himself and became man, flesh.

People need to learn to be happy to just settle with the fact that unexplainable mysteries exist in Christianity.

Translation: "People need to learn to be happy to just settle with Trinitarian reason and logic even though it does not make sense in the end."

To loosely quote a prof of mine: "As soon as you spilt the mystery, heresy is just around the corner."

Trinitarian doctrine was developed by reason and logic. To then claim it is a mystery which cannot be understood by the very men who reasoned it out is patently absurd.

JMW

 

[Henry]

Ok I will bite, but do not expect much more, I likely will just ignore what you say next, but all the oneness foks are gone so I have to post something.

you said--Why not? If they pose good challenging questions you should be thankful to have them and answer them. (as pretaining to muslems)

Well what you really mean is that you will use what ever source that you can, which will seemingly support your ideals.

said--All you are doing here is advocating the idea, "don't listen to anyone but a Trinitarian" and forget about the problem questions anyone else poses.

A very typicall cult anser to anyone who does not agree, it is merely that attempt to attack the character of the persons and avoid the issue which was raised. Which I have noticed you do often.

By leaving these long winded post, then responding to any replies with these empty remarks, that are very resemblant of cultic characteristics.

said--Trinitarians developed their doctrines from reason and logic. Hence, they better have answers.

Underhanded character attack again, it is very clear that you will take any reply offered, and twist it to use it against those who offered it, as you will certainly do with what I am saying now.

This again some thing the cults do, and you are seem to have had allot of practice.

said--No, it is not. It never makes him a God-man.

Well, as they say you can lead then to water but you can not make them drink. The fact is that the God-Man teaching is very clear in the bible, but you have somehow become or perhaps always where blinded to it.

But, the good news is, is that God can open the eyes of the blind. So you are still in luck.

said--Translation: "People need to learn to be happy to just settle with Trinitarian reason and logic even though it does not make sense in the end."

Here we go again, manipulating what has been said, rather then addressing the issue you just try to destroy it. So, how it is that you get to "translate" what people really meant?

said--Trinitarian doctrine was developed by reason and logic. To then claim it is a mystery which cannot be understood by the very men who reasoned it out is patently absurd.

The doctrine of the trinity is some thing that is reveled through out the bible, and certianly we must use logic and reason in attempting to understand the revelation God has given to us in this matter.

You seem to say that it was merely logic and reason, and somehow that discounts the doctrice all together. Silly, all doctrine is reasoned out from some sort of logice, yes even yours.

As for the mystery thing, yoiu must forget that we are talking the infinite God and as finite man our minds can only go so far in knowing him, and that is limited to what he has reveled to us.

We gladly admit and take comfortin knowing that God is WAAAAYYY bigger then we are, and the man who says, that he can fully understand God is just a blathering fool.

In short, you sir are heretic, and not becuase you do not agree with me, but becuase you pervert the word of God and teach things which he has not said.

I hope no one ever takes you serously that would be a very sad sad thing.


To All.

What we see here is the way in which cult leaders a start.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Ok I will bite, but do not expect much more, I likely will just ignore what you say next, but all the oneness foks are gone so I have to post something.

you said--Why not? If they pose good challenging questions you should be thankful to have them and answer them. (as pretaining to muslems)

Well what you really mean is that you will use what ever source that you can, which will seemingly support your ideals.

said--All you are doing here is advocating the idea, "don't listen to anyone but a Trinitarian" and forget about the problem questions anyone else poses.

A very typicall cult anser to anyone who does not agree, it is merely that attempt to attack the character of the persons and avoid the issue which was raised. Which I have noticed you do often.

By leaving these long winded post, then responding to any replies with these empty remarks, that are very resemblant of cultic characteristics.

said--Trinitarians developed their doctrines from reason and logic. Hence, they better have answers.

Underhanded character attack again, it is very clear that you will take any reply offered, and twist it to use it against those who offered it, as you will certainly do with what I am saying now.

This again some thing the cults do, and you are seem to have had allot of practice.

said--No, it is not. It never makes him a God-man.

Well, as they say you can lead then to water but you can not make them drink. The fact is that the God-Man teaching is very clear in the bible, but you have somehow become or perhaps always where blinded to it.

But, the good news is, is that God can open the eyes of the blind. So you are still in luck.

said--Translation: "People need to learn to be happy to just settle with Trinitarian reason and logic even though it does not make sense in the end."

Here we go again, manipulating what has been said, rather then addressing the issue you just try to destroy it. So, how it is that you get to "translate" what people really meant?

said--Trinitarian doctrine was developed by reason and logic. To then claim it is a mystery which cannot be understood by the very men who reasoned it out is patently absurd.

The doctrine of the trinity is some thing that is reveled through out the bible, and certianly we must use logic and reason in attempting to understand the revelation God has given to us in this matter.

You seem to say that it was merely logic and reason, and somehow that discounts the doctrice all together. Silly, all doctrine is reasoned out from some sort of logice, yes even yours.

As for the mystery thing, yoiu must forget that we are talking the infinite God and as finite man our minds can only go so far in knowing him, and that is limited to what he has reveled to us.

We gladly admit and take comfortin knowing that God is WAAAAYYY bigger then we are, and the man who says, that he can fully understand God is just a blathering fool.

In short, you sir are heretic, and not becuase you do not agree with me, but becuase you pervert the word of God and teach things which he has not said.

I hope no one ever takes you serously that would be a very sad sad thing.


To All.

What we see here is the way in which cult leaders a start.

You are all talk and no action Henry. You babble.

Try and prove me wrong.

JMW

 

[Free]

JMW,

No, it is not. It never makes him a God-man.

Phil. 2:5-8, "5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Hmm...seems to agree with what I said: Jesus is the God-man. It agrees with John 1:1. It makes sense in light of the virgin birth and why Christ was referred to as "Son of God" and "Son of man."

Your position is looking more and more inconsistent.

The Word who was god, spirit, emptied himself and became man, flesh.

Just like I said in the other thread: polytheism. The only divine "gods" are those in beliefs outside of Christianity. The Christian God is the only one who is divine.

Trinitarian doctrine was developed by reason and logic. To then claim it is a mystery which cannot be understood by the very men who reasoned it out is patently absurd.

You are so hung up on the use of "trinitarian" and claiming everything is "trinitarian." If you know anything about church history, you would know that the doctrine of Christ as God-man was developed long before the doctrine of the Trinity.

Regardless, the mystery I am talking about is the Incarnation, not the Trinity.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

JMW,

No, it is not. It never makes him a God-man.

Phil. 2:5-8, "5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Hmm...seems to agree with what I said: Jesus is the God-man. It agrees with John 1:1. It makes sense in light of the virgin birth and why Christ was referred to as "Son of God" and "Son of man."

LOL. Php 2:5-8 indicates the Son of God gave up his divine nature emptying himself to become a man.

Your position is looking more and more inconsistent.

[quote:6f625]The Word who was god, spirit, emptied himself and became man, flesh.

Just like I said in the other thread: polytheism. The only divine "gods" are those in beliefs outside of Christianity. The Christian God is the only one who is divine.
[/quote:6f625]

And once again you don't seem to comprehend the subject matter here. No one is talking about divine gods.

Trinitarian doctrine was developed by reason and logic. To then claim it is a mystery which cannot be understood by the very men who reasoned it out is patently absurd.

You are so hung up on the use of "trinitarian" and claiming everything is "trinitarian." If you know anything about church history, you would know that the doctrine of Christ as God-man was developed long before the doctrine of the Trinity.

Regardless, the mystery I am talking about is the Incarnation, not the Trinity.[/quote]

Well if you really want to understand the incarnation, then understand he emptied himself. Our Lord gave up EVERYTHING in love for us. He was not a hypocrite like the Trinitarian Jesus.

JMW

 

[WyldCyde]

He was not a hypocrite like the Trinitarian Jesus.

You dont hold back do you JMW. It does hold some truth though. It would seem to me that trinitarian Jesus doesn't die, he only leaves his earthly body for a few days. Jesus-man dies but Jesus-God doesn't... not sure who or what truly died though.

WyldCyde

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

He was not a hypocrite like the Trinitarian Jesus.

You dont hold back do you JMW. It does hold some truth though. It would seem to me that trinitarian Jesus doesn't die, he only leaves his earthly body for a few days. Jesus-man dies but Jesus-God doesn't... not sure who or what truly died though.

WyldCyde

Well to say that Jesus did not empty himself of his divine nature he was a hypocrite. He asks us to give up everything and follow him. If he did not give up everything he is a total hypocrite. Trinitarians say he didn't really give up anything but just went on a vacation from his body for a coupla days.

JMW

 

[Gary]

LOL at the Mutt and Jeff show.. like reading the comics. :roll:

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

LOL at the Mutt and Jeff show.. like reading the comics. :roll:

Is that all ya got Gary?

JMW