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[_ Old Earth _] How Can All Those Scientists Be Wrong?

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I'd like to see an actual definition of the term "kind".
self explanatory. Kind = Sort, Form,Variety Source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kind
This doesn't solve the problem though - you still need speciation on steroids. If you call the first couple a species of exemplary individuals of their respective kind doesn't change this at all.

From rock to dog billions of unobservable years. Vs dog to smaller dog in 4000 +/- hmmm
Why did oaks consistently "out-float" conifers then, with not a single exception?
In regards to snails and insects; there are characteristic species associated to each stratum. They aren't scrambled at all.
How about sloths? They're quite slow mammals, yet they supposedly outran all those dinosaurs.
I note you didn't address my point that based on empirical experience, running away doesn't even work on local floods.

No one can say for sure what happened in the flood, hydro sorting works weird, and yes the column is messed up a lot.

There is no debate about whether evolution occurs within the scientific community, only the details are being debated.
Yup your right..."Micro"...


Excuse me, but that doesn't make any sense. A few cases of frauds don't put a dent into the ToE anymore than the witch hunts falsify Christianity. New evidence for the ToE is discovered every day, we haven't even begun to properly discuss it!

i meant that even with bullet holes in the ToE, it still stands as an accepted theory (there is MANY of these holes) the witch hunts weren't done by Christians but by catholics (catholics, Jehovah's witness, Muslims etc etc are not Christians, don't say we are the same), i say if the theory has fruads and bad science clear it up fix it, update it etc etc or get a new one.




Ok: What is the creationist explanation for the correlation of independent dating methods?
Why is there a continuous tree ring record going back more than 12.000 years? Continueing annual layers of ice going back more than 500.000 years? Limestone layers which take millions of years to form?

all dating methods are based on the premise that everything is constant, we could talk for weeks on this topic.
tree rings and ice rings are worthless and do not = millions of years. i worked at a tree farm, in 2 years these trees has 7-13 rings. Every hear about the lost sqaudren ? they left a plane in Antarctica for 50 years and they came back to dig or (melt) it up, the plane they found was buried 275 feet under the ice and it drifted 5 km while digging down they went through hundreds of thousands of ice rings in only 50 years.
limestone layers don't mean anything to creationists because you assume its millions of years again which uses dating methods which are very unreliable.



And each time it changes, it gets more accurate. Just like with each time new evidence is discovered, the interpretations of scripture get more accurate.
And please, don't call it "evolution scripture".
why not call it evolution scripture ? is that offensive? so just because you believe in it i should respect it ? hello this whole forum is attacking my belief, i think that i can defend myself here.

Just visit the limestone formations of Dover. Or the deep cut through massive granite at the Grand canyon. Neither of these could possibly have formed in just a few thousand years.

it does not work, you see with my mind set, nothing on this earth equals my god being wrong.
 
johnmuise said:
The ToE only deals with the change of lifeforms, not with how elements formed, how planets formed, how the first life came to be.
Right, but without those other factors, evolution can't happen, so it goes hand in hand with evolution.

AGain, ToE only deals with lifeforms.......not how they formed. You have changed the definition of evolution, then made an assumption on your changed definition.


[quote:e2717]Actually the ToE is exceptionally successful at making specific predictions, and it has various applications. The development of medicine is just one field.

Thats just smart people experimenting using different methods, it does not justify evolution.

Because predictions can be made............smart people could NOT fool these predictions, therefore evolution is proven.


For this reason only those scientists who work in relevant fields are used for statistics about the acceptance of a scientific theory.

many of these stats are from many different scientists every ware and in anything

But don't forget the ones that are biased towards God in the first place. Find me a REAL scientist that believes in God and I will show you an IDIOT.


True - if the ToE were falsified today, it'd still be the best explanation for nearly all observations of the field of biology until a better theory comes along. Hence it would be continued to be used provisionally.
Hence the creation theory, the truth of the matter is that people don't want "religion" to govern their perfect little lives be it true or not.

Truth of the matter is that you have NOT proven the need for God or religion.......therefore, there is NO need to take you seriously.


Keep in mind though, overturning the theory of evolution is the dream of nearly every biologist. It'd make one rich and famous, and elevate the one who manages to do this into the ranks of Galileo or Einstein. There is no reason why anyone would keep evidence against the ToE hidden, if it can stand up to scrutiny.

O yes there is reason, people have been covering up creation evidence and either destroying it or bending it into evolution evidence for years, the reason is simply that people that hate or otherwise against god don't want there theory to be torn down and God be right.
another method is called fire/hire, if one in the sciences finds evidence that might support creation he gets fired, same goes for teachers. scientists get grants and funding to support evolution theory, creation scientists get squat. if the humanism way is supported and God hated of course any contradicting evidence would be removed or ignored.[/quote:e2717]

NOPE, there is NO reason to object to an eternity of paradise and streets lined of gold and fields lined with grapes for wine.
The reason we cover it up is that you don't have any evidence for your claims, so they are discarded like dirty bath water; used and useless.

Why would someone HATE the idea of an eternal paradise? Why would someone HATE streeets lined with Gold. I know my thief neighbors would love streets lined with gold!
 
johnmuise said:
I'd like to see an actual definition of the term "kind".
self explanatory. Kind = Sort, Form,Variety Source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kind
That's not a biological definition. Give me some rigid criteria based on which i can objectovely decide if two animals are of the same kind.
E.g. in case of "species" this is the ability to have fertile offspring with each other.


From rock to dog billions of unobservable years. Vs dog to smaller dog in 4000 +/- hmmm
Ehm, no. Pretty much all dogs are still the same species. We're talking about a way greater deal of variation.

No one can say for sure what happened in the flood, hydro sorting works weird, and yes the column is messed up a lot.
Hydrological sorting doesn't work weird, but not at all as an attempt to explain the geological column.
Evidence for the geological column being messed up a lot? How about a cambrian mammal fossil?
[quote:6f9d2]
There is no debate about whether evolution occurs within the scientific community, only the details are being debated.
Yup your right..."Micro"...[/quote:6f9d2]No, the validity of macroevolution isn't being questioned anymore either.


i meant that even with bullet holes in the ToE, it still stands as an accepted theory (there is MANY of these holes)
Examples please.

the witch hunts weren't done by Christians but by catholics (catholics, Jehovah's witness, Muslims etc etc are not Christians, don't say we are the same), i say if the theory has fruads and bad science clear it up fix it, update it etc etc or get a new one.
Actually, both protestants and catholics have conducted plenty of witch burnings. Just take a look at the history of Germany. Jehova's witnesses didn't even exist at that time.




all dating methods are based on the premise that everything is constant, we could talk for weeks on this topic.
This premise is supported by directly observed evidence though, such as SN1987A. You haven't even tried to adress this yet.

tree rings and ice rings are worthless and do not = millions of years. i worked at a tree farm, in 2 years these trees has 7-13 rings.
That's why only specific species of trees in regions with clear distinction between winter and summer are used for tree ring analysis - trees which empirically only have one ring per year.

Every hear about the lost sqaudren ? they left a plane in Antarctica for 50 years and they came back to dig or (melt) it up, the plane they found was buried 275 feet under the ice and it drifted 5 km while digging down they went through hundreds of thousands of ice rings in only 50 years.
The lost squadron landed in a region with plenty of snowfall and non-annular layers. I'm talking about ice cores from a region where that is not so.

limestone layers don't mean anything to creationists because you assume its millions of years again which uses dating methods which are very unreliable.
I don't assume millions of years at all there. Limestone is known to form only very slowly, millimeters per year. We have never seen it form at a rate which would make the massive limestone formations seen on earth compatible with a young earth.

why not call it evolution scripture ? is that offensive? so just because you believe in it i should respect it ? hello this whole forum is attacking my belief, i think that i can defend myself here.
It is just a grossly inaccurate term.

it does not work, you see with my mind set, nothing on this earth equals my god being wrong.
I'm not saying that God is wrong. I'm saying that your personal interpretation of God's word may be wrong, and that evidence shows this. That's not the same.
 
NOPE, there is NO reason to object to an eternity of paradise and streets lined of gold and fields lined with grapes for wine.
The reason we cover it up is that you don't have any evidence for your claims, so they are discarded like dirty bath water; used and useless.

Why would someone HATE the idea of an eternal paradise? Why would someone HATE streeets lined with Gold. I know my thief neighbors would love streets lined with gold!

you want me to prove streets of gold ?! i smell a strawman.
 
johnmuise said:
Hovind has made controversial remarks regarding conspiracies, science, creation, equal rights, religion and government over the years. Hovind considers the King James Version of the Bible to be the inerrant word of God that must be taken literally. Because of this, he believes all findings of science will eventually be found to agree with Scripture  which he says is a priori known to be true[citation needed]. He says that evolutionists also have a priori assumptions, namely that God does not exist (or at least not one that performed special Creation), thereby distorting their own application of science.[62][63][64] Hovind maintains that biology textbooks are lying and that he considers evolution to be a religion.[65] He has said, "I'm not trying to get evolution out of the textbooks, nor am I trying to get creationism into the textbooks. What I'm trying to do is get the lies out of the textbooks."[66]

i see nothing wrong here

[quote:85489]Hovind has several conspiracy theories about the U.S. government. He believes that Laetrile actually works as a "cancer cure" and teaches that the US government is conspiring to suppress a cure for cancer.[22] On his radio program he has said that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks and that a "lot of folks were told not to come to work."[67][reliable source needed] He also believes the Oklahoma City bombing was carried out by the government. "Did you know the Federal Government blew up their own building to blame it on the militias and to get rid of some people that weren't cooperating with the system?"[68] He also alleges that "UFOs are apparitions of Satan" and that the US government possesses UFOs.[68] Additionally, Hovind believes that the Federal Reserve, the Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations, and various other groups are actively planning to create a one world government and that the 1993 World Trade Center attack was staged by the US Government in order to pass "anti-terrorism" legislation that restricts civil liberties. He says, "I love my country, but fear my government. And you should too."[69

ooo he does not trust the government, this proves he is a mad man.

As part of his "one world government" conspiracy theory[citation needed], Hovind also believes that HIV, West Nile Fever, Gulf war syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis, Wegener's disease, Parkinson's disease, Crohn's colitis, Type I diabetes, and collagen-vascular diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and Alzheimer's were all engineered by "the money masters and governments of the world" for the purpose of global economic domination.[70]

The bible predicted this. see chuck missler

Hovind disregards all fossil evidence, saying that "no fossils can count as evidence for evolution," because "all we know about that animal is that it died," and we do not know that it "had any kids, much less different kids."[71][verification needed].

100% right, so far you got nothing

During a debate with Farrell Till, Hovind made the following statement about Donald Johanson: "[He] found the leg bones of Lucy a mile and a half away from the head bones. The leg bones were 200 feet deeper in a deeper layer of strata. I would like to know how fast the train was going that hit that chimpanzee."[72] According to Donald Johanson, this is false, and although Hovind has been informed of this, he continues to make the statement.[73]

Hmm, still not enough to de-bunk a mans life story.

i looked under the cap for you ----"Sorry, Try Again"[/quote:85489]


Wow, that's clever. This guy believes in UFOs (which are apparitions of satan) controlled by the government, believes the government planned 9/11 and the Oklahoma city bombings without a shred of proof, and believes the government is trying to stop a cure for cancer. These facts qualify as a mere "distrust" of the government? Your interpretation is blatantly biased in his favor.

You ignore the fact that he continues to spout off lies against evolution despite being informed of the truth. Then, you wonder why scientists don't like him? News flash, the IRS hits random places without warning or explanation. A restaurant called the "Jewish Mother" at the beach where I live got raided. They came guns drawn at their home and business, and they hauled away a truck load of stuff. They were entirely innocent and their business was set back because of it. They couldn't get in contact with the IRS to get their stuff back either. Conspiracy? No. It's just the IRS. Hovind wants to add it to his list of retarded conspiracy theories about UFO's and Governments bombing our own country. You want to claim that he only "distrusts" the government after all of the stuff he says? You're just ruining your own credibility now.

If you're going to name-drop people who are being 'attacked' but deserve to be heard, you may as well pick a guy who doesn't LIE about evolution.
 
There are zero scientists who deny evolution. Creationism is neither testable nor falsifiable. That is why science cannot test many proponents of religion. If it could, there would be no faith involved, and religion would require no faith.
 
The idea that evolution may be false is a difficult idea for many people to accept, particularly when a lot of well-educated, smart people, and well-respected organizations say it is true.

All that evidence. Directly observed macroevolution, DNA, the fossil record, etc. Hard to deny all that.

* Most people are taught in school, and from television shows and museums, that evolution explains our universe and all living things

Nope. Biology classes teach that it's about the way living populations change. The first thing you should know, if you want to take down science, is what it is.

Much of the confusion around the concept of "evolution" is that this word is commonly used to describe two very different things:
1. Micro-evolution refers to the fact that living things have a built-in variability which allows them to adapt to small changes in the environment.

No. That is not what it's about. It's about mutation and natural selection.

When scientists say that evolution is a proven fact, they mean that micro-evolution is a proven fact.

No, they mean common descent of all living things on Earth is a fact.

Macro-evolution refers to the type of change which has created people from hydrogen gas.

No. What a silly idea? No wonder you hate science. I'd hate it too, if I thought it was like that.

Evolutionists say that large scale change is possible because we have seen small scale change in action.

No. They say that large scale change has happened, because the evidence demonstrates it. Just one example; DNA analysis shows the same family tree for all organisms that is found by other evidence, such as the fossil record. And we know it works, because it is tested on organisms of known descent.

However, the flaw in this reasoning is that living systems have limits beyond which no further change can take place.

That's testable claim. Show me an organism which has reached that point, and can have no further changes.

Much of day to day scientific activity ("practical science") does not directly depend upon evolutionary assumptions, and so progress is made.

Much day to day science doesn't depend on metallurgical sciences, either. But agronomy, animal husbandry, drug research, medicine, and many others depends on evolutionary theory.

Scientific fields of study have become very narrow.

And not surprisingly, the people whose expertise is in biology are most likely to accept evolution. Those who have degrees that are not related to biology, like mechanical engineering, are more likely to reject evolution. Ignorance is creationism's best ally.

Since scientists know that other scientists believe in evolution, they believe it also, even though they may not know much about the details themselves.

Here's a way to test that; ask a scientist why he accepts evolution. If he says "because those scientists do," you're right. If he starts talking about evidence, you're wrong.

Scientists want to have an answer for everything,

So does everyone. But to suggest that they make up stories out of nothing is not merely foolish, it's against everything Christians stand for.

Non-naturalistic ideas (like special creation) are regarded as outside the scope of scientific study.

Right. Science can't address the supernatural. But if you're a Christian, you should accept Genesis, which expressly denies the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of special creation.

However, many of the well-known scientists of the past (such as Louis Pasteur, Issac Newton, and Michael Faraday, among many others) operated with their religious and scientific ideas working together.

Show me where Newton used faith in his theory of gravity. Be sure to include the calculations. Show me in Pasteur's scientific papers how he used religion. Show me where religion fits in Faraday's law of induction.

Or come on back to the real world and take part in the discussion.
 
johnmuise said:
if their is evidence that we can clearly see today, supporting the bible, not just in history, but in predictions (the bible has never been off on those amazing for a book written by liars, thieves and murderers ) tell me if the Bible is so right on with history and such , why can't it be right on on everything ?
Because that's a package-deal fallacy?
 
Btw, once again you claim that you could fit more species on the ark if you used eggs/young. While this is technically true, many animals rely on parental guidance to develop skills, knowledge of their body and the environment they interact with, et cetera. Without a parental figure and having been on the ark for all of their infancy, how would they know what to do once they reached dry land?

And what if any animal decided they didn't want to mate with the female, succumbed to injury or disease or decided that other animal over there looked tasty? Bye bye species? And even if they all manage to breed and proliferate successfully how is the problem of a universal genetic bottleneck solved? Mutation rates equivalent to being a nuclear fallout victim?
 
[quote[the bible says that if they can only bring forth after their own kind,[/quote]

No, it doesn't. Might be good to read it more often.
 
i meant that even with bullet holes in the ToE, it still stands as an accepted theory (there is MANY of these holes)

There is many, um?

the witch hunts weren't done by Christians but by catholics

Catholics are the largest single group of Christians in the world. Slightly more than half of all Christians are Roman Catholics. All the others are offshoots of Catholicism. They are still Christian, most of them, but they have rejected various elements of Apostolic Christianity.

However, Protestants were enthusiastic witch-burners. In our country, for example, Cotton Mather and his henchmen were Protestant, and the witch hunt hysteria killed scored of people (including many of his political opponents). The last Protestant witch burning in England was in the 1690s.

(catholics, Jehovah's witness, Muslims etc etc are not Christians, don't say we are the same)

Most cults deny that Catholics, Anglicans, and Eastern Orthodox churches are Christian. It's pretty much diagnostic for them.
 
johnmuise said:
Hovind has made controversial remarks regarding conspiracies, science, creation, equal rights, religion and government over the years. Hovind considers the King James Version of the Bible to be the inerrant word of God that must be taken literally. Because of this, he believes all findings of science will eventually be found to agree with Scripture  which he says is a priori known to be true[citation needed]. He says that evolutionists also have a priori assumptions, namely that God does not exist (or at least not one that performed special Creation), thereby distorting their own application of science.[62][63][64] Hovind maintains that biology textbooks are lying and that he considers evolution to be a religion.[65] He has said, "I'm not trying to get evolution out of the textbooks, nor am I trying to get creationism into the textbooks. What I'm trying to do is get the lies out of the textbooks."[66]

i see nothing wrong here
Not necessarily true. Just because scientists don't start with the assumption that there is a God doesn't mean that they start with the the assumption that there is no God. For example: 1+n+5+9/6(7^4) = 123n*(4/5). Is it smart to start with the assumption that n = 4? No, does this mean that n != 4? Of course not. As it is, science seems to have confirmed that n !=4 (God did not create everything at once in it current form, and there has been evolution.)
 

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