Bible Study How Can God Love Them And Be Angry with Them?

[dga]

It is interesting to notice, that the Bible very clearly says, that God loves people in this world, that is people who do not believe in him, and are not Christians, and yet, the Bible also says that, the people who do not have Jesus in their life, or in other words, do not believe in Jesus, God's wrath remains on them. Read John 3:16, 36.

At the first reading of those texts in the Bible, it seem like a contradiction, but it is not, and never can be! Think about this way. An earthly father, loves his children very much, regardless of what they do or not do. But, when those children do the wrong things, their fathers can be angry with them, and even punish them. The fact that their fathers punish them, does not mean that they do not love their children, but they want their children, to do the right things.

So it is similar with people in this world, who do not believe in Jesus, and do not serve the Lord. God loves them very much, but because they do the wrong thing by rejecting Jesus, the wrath of God remains on them. And yet, it does not mean at all, that God does not love them, because he does, and is longing for them to be saved.

MORE: God Has Not Forgotten Your Suffering
https://christianbibleexplorationuk.weebly.com/blog/god-has-not-forgotten-your-suffering

 

[Doug Brents]

The very fact that He is angered by our misbehavior is proof of His love for us. If He didn't care about us, He would not become angry with our disobedience.

 

[Fastfredy0]

“A love of holiness cannot be without a hatred of everything that is contrary to it. As God necessarily loves himself, so he must necessarily hate everything that is against himself: and as he loves himself for his own excellency and holiness, he must necessarily detest whatsoever is repugnant to his holiness, because of the evil of it. Since he is infinitely good, he cannot but love goodness Psalm 11:7 “The righteous Lord loveth righteousness,” as it is a resemblance to himself, and cannot but abhor unrighteousness Psalm 11:6A Upon the wicked (godless) He will rain coals of fire, as being most distant from him, and contrary to him. If he have any esteem for his own perfections, he must needs have an implacable aversion to all that is so repugnant to him, that would, if it were possible, destroy him, and is a point directed, not only against his glory, but against his life. If he did not hate it, he would hate himself: for since righteousness is his image, and sin would deface his image; if he did not love his image, and loathe what is against his image, he would loathe himself, he would be an enemy to his own nature. Nay, if it were possible for him to love it, it were possible for him not to be holy, it were possible then for him to deny himself, and will that he were no God, which is a palpable contradiction.
He can no more cease to hate impurity than he can cease to love holiness: if he should in the least instant approve of anything that is filthy, in that moment he would disapprove of his own nature and being; there would be an interruption in his love of himself, which is as eternal as it is infinite. How can he love any sin which is contrary to his nature, but for one moment, without hating his own nature, which is essentially contrary to sin? Two contraries cannot be loved at the same time; God must first begin to hate himself before he can approve of any evil which is directly opposite to himself. God is always the same without any shadow of change, and “is angry with the wicked every day” (Psalm 7:11), that is, uninterruptedly in the nature of his anger, though not in the effects of it.“ Charnock, Stephen.

• The love of God is for His family, which Paul identified as the boundless love of Christ (Ephesians 3:14-19).
• Nothing is more absurd than to imagine that anyone beloved of God can eternally perish or shall ever experience His everlasting vengeance. It is not as if God lacks the power to save those He loves. (John 6:39)

How Can God Love Them And Be Angry with Them? He cannot for this is a contradiction. The Bible tells us that clearly and emphatically that God chastens all those He loves. But it also tells us that He does not chasten all, for some are bastards and not sons (Hebrews 12:6-8). To not chasten a child is to show hatred to that child, and God does not chasten bastards (Proverbs 13:24). ​

"Love" is a volition to favor while "hate/wrath" is a volition to not favor. God cannot 'favor' and 'not favor' the same object. God is immutable, so He will not 'favor' one day then 'not favor' another day. (Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated).​

• Psalm 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.
• Habakkuk 1:13 “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:”
• Hebrews 12:29 God is [indeed] a consuming fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

God loves all He has created and gives His mercy and grace to all who will accept it and is very patient in His longsuffering while waiting to send Christ for His Bride. Those in whom reject Him and His Son Christ Jesus have already condemned themselves to the lake of fire and it is they that have angered God's judgement against them. Like any loving father, God as our Father will chastise us bringing correction, not His wrath, when we mess up at times as this is the conviction that the Holy Spirit brings in us for what needs changing in us. His anger towards those who are His own is the parts of us that displease Him that we need to work upon.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

How Can God Love Them And Be Angry with Them? He cannot for this is a contradiction.

Fastfredy0
Well, here I am again bro .
The answer is a very basic premise we learn in Sunday school.
LOVE THE SINNER - HATE THE SIN !!! No contradiction.

Understanding the above simple concept makes understanding God so much easier, and makes growing and acting genuinely in our faith so much easier - so simple.

Seasoned by Grace

 

[Fastfredy0]

LOVE THE SINNER - HATE THE SIN !!! No contradiction.

Well, if it is not a contradiction then God should send the sin to hell and the sinner to heaven. The two cannot be separated. A person is the aggregate of his thoughts and actions, and the thoughts and actions of the reprobates are continuously evil, so that the totality of his life – the totality of his person – is evil, so it is nonsensical to say that we should love the sinner and hate the sin. If we were to hate the sins of a reprobate person, there would be nothing left of the person for us to love. Sins do not exist apart from the sinner; evil cannot exist by itself. God does hate sinning, killing, stealing, lying, lusting, etc., but this alludes to the perpetrator of these crimes." (Psalm 5:5 “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity”—not merely the works of iniquity.)
God shows benevolence toward all men (Matthew 5:43-45). But we should have “nothing but hatred” (Psalm 139:21-22) toward non-Christians in that we oppose all of who they are, what they believe, and what they do.

Verses Showing God HATES the person.
(Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Romans 12:9; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20).

Understanding the above simple concept makes understanding God so much easier, and makes growing and acting genuinely in our faith so much easier - so simple.

I try to use scripture to validate my theological premises (see above) and not man made concepts like God loves the sinner but hates the sin. That being said:
Please site a verse saying God loves the sinner and hates their sin.
Please site a verse indicating God loves someone we know is not in heaven. Be specific, give me a name.
Please site a verse indicating a love of God for a person among the non-elect. Be specific, give me a name.
Please site a verse indicating a prayer by God for a person among the non-elect. Be specific, give me a name.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I try to use scripture to validate my theological premises (see above) and not man made concepts like God loves the sinner but hates the sin

Fastfredy0
I have read many of your posts and don't think my opinion, or quoted verses would affect your personal beliefs and your chosen personal doctrine, that your so passionate about, which to me is a good thing..

I think your own research would benefit you more than I would.

It took me many decades to get where my beliefs have given me a fantastic foundation of beliefs and faith that I am so satisfied and content with.

It would take me many years to teach you what I have learned and yet it would mean nothing to you, as it wouldn't have to me either, if I hadn't had the Holy Spirit guide me and lead me one on one, and put all I learned together to make sense of things I never heard before.

The last 7 years of continuous study, from 2014 until 2020, was so intense and overwhelming, that more times than I can count, I experienced complete exhaustion and burnout, as it was 7 years without letup with the Holy Spirit, and when God was done with me, what I learned completely astounded me, and changed my life and faith to hardly be recognizable today in many areas, and taught me things I had never heard of, and never would have, but was right there in front of me in scripture waiting for the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to things most are blind to , and I was too.

It was nothing short of mysteries and miracles. It was a lifetime of learnings pushed into 7 years.

The only way I can describe it was like a desert experience like Jesus and Paul had, but for 7 years straight, many days 12 -14 hours. Many times I would fall asleep during the day, and wake up and go back to my studies.
I remember many times praying and telling God I was exhausted and couldn't go on, but each day after feeling like that, the next morning I had renewed energy, and was once again going full-tilt.
It was a crazy time, and many times I wondered if it would ever end, and many times near the end I was so desperate to have it end as I felt drained of anything that would allow me to move forward anymore.
And yes, not too much later it was time for God to be finished with me.
There is such joy in my heart now.
I'll never forget those years.

Seasoned by Grace

 

[Fastfredy0]

The last 7 years of continuous study, from 2014 until 2020, was so intense and overwhelming, that more times than I can count, I experienced complete exhaustion and burnout, as it was 7 years without letup with the Holy Spirit, and when God was done with me, what I learned completely astounded me, and changed my life and faith to hardly be recognizable today in many areas, and taught me things I had never heard of, and never would have, but was right there in front of me in scripture waiting for the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to things most are blind to , and I was too.

I can tell a similar story ... although it is 8 years ago that I said to myself something like "What can I do that would be of the most value and my answer was to study God and become more familiar with truth". So that's what I did, I studied and made notes and reviewed and read other author's. I added to my notes, adjusted my notes, deleted a few things and reorganized occasionally.

I have read many of your posts and don't think my opinion, or quoted verses would affect your personal beliefs and your chosen personal doctrine, that your so passionate about, which to me is a good thing..

I think your own research would benefit you more than I would.

Wise observation and astute conclusion. LOL ... agreed.

It would take me many years to teach you what I have learned and yet it would mean nothing to you, as it wouldn't have to me either, if I hadn't had the Holy Spirit guide me and lead me one on one, and put all I learned together to make sense of things I never heard before.

I could make the same statement ... and yet the Spirit's guidance has lead us to different conclusions which I find intriguing. That being said, I am sure we agree on 90% of things and since we highlight our differences those differences seem bigger that they actually are ... at least that is my theory.

Anyways, thanks for the thoughtful interaction. When we get to heaven we will probably be told we are both wrong 30% of the time *gentle smile*

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Fastfredy0
"Please site a verse saying God loves the sinner and hates their sin"
I can offer two examples.
John 4:1-26;
John 8:1-11;

In the latter, Jesus may have been writing on the ground "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy0
"Please site a verse saying God loves the sinner and hates their sin"
I can offer two examples.
John 4:1-26;
John 8:1-11;

In the latter, Jesus may have been writing on the ground "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".

Well, John 7:53 thru John 8:11 is not found in the oldest copies of scripture and is suspect.... but anyways

Perhaps clarification is needed.
Definitions to we are clear we won't talk past each other
Love is a volition to favor
Hate is a volition to disfavor

If we don't agree what LOVE and HATE mean there is not much sense going further.

I also state that there are degrees of LOVE. I love my cat, I love my sandwich and I love my wife. When I speak of love I am referring to the deepest love, one which God dies for someone. Aside: If we are talking about love as in the rain falls on the good and the bad, then I agree that to this degree God loves everyone.

I'll just deal with John 4:1-26 stipulating the two stories are synonymous.
The first point I would make is that the stories are narratives and therefore are to be used with care when constructing doctrine like "God loves the sinner and hates their sin". There is didactic teachings in verses 14,23-26 which teaches:

• Christ being living water that is necessary for eternal life.
• God is spirit
• those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth
• I who speak to you, am He (the Messiah)
• evidence that Christ is a prophet

I can't find in the verses the words "LOVE OF THE WOMAN" or "HATE OF HER SIN". I can't even find the word LOVE or HATE. So we have a narrative that does not directly address the question at hand: does "God loves the sinner and hates their sin".

Now, is there implicit evidence in John 4:1-26 to show Christ loves (favors) the woman because He did take the time to talk to her. But then .... I talk to my cat.

________________________
There are more verses about God's wrath and hate of men than His love. God talks about hating men, not their sins. Sin cannot exist by itself. Sin must have a host; therefore, sin cannot be hated by itself. Sin is unrighteousness. God does not love salvificly anyone that is unrighteous. Thus God died for those He would make righteous by imputing His righteousness to them; this being the ultimate LOVE (favor) one can show to another.

What ever you thoughts in regard to "God loves the sinner and hates their sin" it must also take into account verses like: Leviticus 20:23; Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; John 3:36b; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; Romans 12:9; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Please site a verse that mentions the "TRINITY."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Fastfredy0
"Well, John 7:53 thru John 8:11 is not found in the oldest copies of scripture and is suspect.... but anyways"

How do you know?
You take the word of man, but you refuse to believe the word of God.
I find that to be very suspect.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Well all, here I am sitting near my kitchen window this morning at 9AM having coffee and breakfast, reading everyone's posts, and relishing in the fact that my 19th year of retirement will begin in a few weeks.

I never could have imagined when all this began that retirement could last so long and be so enjoyable, and I could be so healthy, all by the grace and loving care of my Savior.

Whatever the rest of you are doing, I pray that by God's grace, your day is beyond excellent and you are highly blessed.
In His love,
Seasoned by grace.

 

[Doug Brents]

Please site a verse that mentions the "TRINITY."

There are several, but here are a couple:

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

In John 4:1-26; Jesus tells the woman he knows of her 5 husbands and another.
She knows that is wrong and the Jewish Law says so.
She knew it was sin.
We know God hates sin.

He stayed a few days and talked to them and believed he was the Messiah (verse 39).
Jesus loved them enough to stay with them and teach them and see them received him as the Messiah.
Now you know that's love.

Now you have love and hate in this passage.
The words may not read the way you want it to but God does things his way, not your way.

 

[jasonc]

Fastfredy0
I have read many of your posts and don't think my opinion, or quoted verses would affect your personal beliefs and your chosen personal doctrine, that your so passionate about, which to me is a good thing..

I think your own research would benefit you more than I would.

It took me many decades to get where my beliefs have given me a fantastic foundation of beliefs and faith that I am so satisfied and content with.

It would take me many years to teach you what I have learned and yet it would mean nothing to you, as it wouldn't have to me either, if I hadn't had the Holy Spirit guide me and lead me one on one, and put all I learned together to make sense of things I never heard before.

The last 7 years of continuous study, from 2014 until 2020, was so intense and overwhelming, that more times than I can count, I experienced complete exhaustion and burnout, as it was 7 years without letup with the Holy Spirit, and when God was done with me, what I learned completely astounded me, and changed my life and faith to hardly be recognizable today in many areas, and taught me things I had never heard of, and never would have, but was right there in front of me in scripture waiting for the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to things most are blind to , and I was too.

It was nothing short of mysteries and miracles. It was a lifetime of learnings pushed into 7 years.

The only way I can describe it was like a desert experience like Jesus and Paul had, but for 7 years straight, many days 12 -14 hours. Many times I would fall asleep during the day, and wake up and go back to my studies.
I remember many times praying and telling God I was exhausted and couldn't go on, but each day after feeling like that, the next morning I had renewed energy, and was once again going full-tilt.
It was a crazy time, and many times I wondered if it would ever end, and many times near the end I was so desperate to have it end as I felt drained of anything that would allow me to move forward anymore.
And yes, not too much later it was time for God to be finished with me.
There is such joy in my heart now.
I'll never forget those years.

Seasoned by Grace

you aren't a universalist?

God loves that sinner so much that during the judgement meted out of eternal separation he still desires to love them?

vengeance is mine,I,will repay .

for mine eye will not pity..this on the judgment of his own nation after centuries of burning babies in idolatry ,robbing of widows and sodomy and fornication ,greed ,murder after numerous calls to repent .

God wants mercy but He will not let the sinner live .

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

There are several, but here are a couple:

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Doug Brents
Thank you, Doug, but I wanted to hear a verse with the word "TRINITY", to prove a point.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

you aren't a universalist?

God loves that sinner so much that during the judgement meted out of eternal separation he still desires to love them?

vengeance is mine,I,will repay .

for mine eye will not pity..this on the judgment of his own nation after centuries of burning babies in idolatry ,robbing of widows and sodomy and fornication ,greed ,murder after numerous calls to repent .

God wants mercy but He will not let the sinner live .

jasonc
I don't understand your post to me.

By the way, I'm not a Universalist or Calvinist or any other "IST".
Just a plain old Christian with "NO IST."

 

[jasonc]

you can argue that with

baptism,meaning to fully immerse ,which it doesn't quite

the rapture
the word advent isn't in most translations to English.

jasonc
I don't understand your post to me.

By the way, I'm not a Universalist or Calvinist or any other "IST".
Just a plain old Christian with "NO IST."

a univeralist is one who teaches God loves all ,no,matter what they all see heaven .

hell is temporary .

for he that isn't saved is condemned already.

you associate God's love meaning he must favor you to allow you be in heaven .

neither myself nor my pastor or fastFreddy
say that God won't offer mercy ,but only allows those who have to receive full authority to be children

an unrepenented fornicator ,baby abortionist ,gay or lesbian or so forth can't call God his father ,God would deny him

he chastises only those who are his .look I lived that gay part .try taking communion in that sin and see what God says ,you are in sin ,repent or I will reject you .in short .

children of wrath ,children of the devil .

words Paul and Jesus use to describe some .

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

jasonc
Now days there are some pretty strange teachings and doctrines out there in our world.

I've seen so many changes and beliefs come into our world that in most cases I don't even recognize what people call Christianity today.
Much different than when I became a believer many many decades ago.
I'm glad God called me when He did.
Todays Christian culture is a very strange unorthodox mix that makes no sense to me.
Very twisted without any unity or harmony in their beliefs.

Praise God I can love my faith so much, and I have as my faith, PERFECT harmony and unity for me.

I came here thinking I could help by sharing my faith, but I think I was mistaken.
Sad, but that's what God has said many times in scripture, and being on forums and being in several different churches, proves God's word to be true over and over.
"FEW" makes so much sense now.