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Bible Study How Can These Be Reconciled?

"...just as a man speaks to his friend.".......does not sound like a metaphor to me. These are hard verses to reconcile......
 
st_worm2 said:
How do you reconcile these various passages/verses?

"The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." ~Exodus 33:11

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17 The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
21 Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.” ~Exodus 33

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"In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple." ~Isaiah 6:1

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"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." ~John 1:18

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"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." ~1 Timothy 6:15-16

//////////// (Edit: Here is one additional verse to consider)

Stephen said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ~Acts 7:56

//////////// (Edit2: Here is another additional verse to consider and add into the mix above)

“God is spirit” ~John 4:24
​
In the NT, both the Lord Jesus and St. Paul make it clear that no one has seen God (nor can they see Him), but the OT appears to disagree with that. On top of that, the OT also seems to contradict itself (i.e. Exodus 33:11 vs Exodus 33:20).

So again, how can these passages be reconciled with one another?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
Edit3: p.s. - my proposition, that I'd like to either prove or disprove, is this: The physical appearances of God in the OT were all made by God the Son, not by His Father (who is "Spirit" and who "no one has seen").




"These things Isaiah said because he saw
His glory, and he spoke of Him"
John 12:41​
Click to expand...

Sadly you have a bad translation...for example John 1:18 says "the Father" not the generic "God" and this makes all the difference. People have seen God as the Word/Son (who has declared Him or made Him manifest) just not as the Father
 
brother Paul said:
Sadly you have a bad translation...for example John 1:18 says "the Father" not the generic "God" and this makes all the difference. People have seen God as the Word/Son (who has declared Him or made Him manifest) just not as the Father
Click to expand...
What translation are you using? The ones I checked all said God.....
Even the verse you quote using the forum translation says God.....
 
brother Paul said:
Sadly you have a bad translation...for example John 1:18 says "the Father" not the generic "God" and this makes all the difference. People have seen God as the Word/Son (who has declared Him or made Him manifest) just not as the Father
Click to expand...

There must be a lot of bad ones :eek

Here is John 1:18 in several different translations. They all seem pretty similar to me. What translation are you recommending over these?

New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

New Living Translation
No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.

English Standard Version
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Berean Study Bible
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

Berean Literal Bible
No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known.

New American Standard Bible
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son-- the One who is at the Father's side-- He has revealed Him.

International Standard Version
No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.

NET Bible
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.

New Heart English Bible
No one has seen God at any time. The only God, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known.

New American Standard 1977
No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Jubilee Bible 2000
No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

King James 2000 Bible
No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

American King James Version
No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

American Standard Version
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him .

Douay-Rheims Bible
No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Darby Bible Translation
No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

English Revised Version
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Webster's Bible Translation
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Weymouth New Testament
No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.

World English Bible
No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

Young's Literal Translation
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.​
 
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David asked:
But what do we do with verses like these, how should they be understood?
"The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face" ~Exodus 33:11
God said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” ~Exodus 33:20
"No one has seen God at any time" ~John 1:18
Stephen said, “Behold, I see .. God" ~Acts 7:56
Click to expand...
How do you reconcile them (or are you saying that we shouldn't even try to do so)?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry about being so slow but such is often my condition these days.
I thought I had answered this but Moses did not see God's face but rather, as explained in this account, he saw God's back, His hinder parts. Now, in the case of Stephen, all through the Old Testament we learned that viewing God, in actual face to face encounters, will result in the death of any sinful man making the question, "Was Stephen stoned to death or did looking on the face of God do him in?" And I do not have enough information in the scriptures to answer that.
 
Chopper said:
Here's an ideas....Keil & Delitzsch say this....“face to face, as a man talks with his friend” (Exo_33:11); that is to say, not from the distance of heaven, through any kind of medium whatever, but “mouth to mouth,” as it is called in Num_12:8, as closely and directly as friends talk to one another. “These words indicate, therefore, a familiar conversation, just as much as if it had been said, that God appeared to Moses in some peculiar form of manifestation. If any one objects to this, that it is at variance with the assertion which we shall come to presently, 'Thou canst not see My face,' the answer is a very simple one. Although Jehovah showed Himself to Moses in some peculiar form of manifestation, He never appeared in His own essential glory, (bold mine)but only in such a mode as human weakness could bear. (used by permission, e-Sword)
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I had never heard that but that makes perfect sense to this old fossil.
 
I think I agree with this too. I struggled with the qualifying phrase "face to face, like a man talks with his friend", but it's easy to understand what Moses meant in context (see below), especially if you consider the manner/form that the Lord chose to present Himself to Moses in (a pillar of cloud .. v9), and also when you realize where God 'was' when He spoke to Moses (God stood outside the entrance of Moses' tent while he sat within). It seems to me that God did indeed speak to Moses, "face to face", but He did so from the inside of the "pillar of cloud", so that His "glory" could not be seen by him.

So understanding, "face to face", this way (in context) makes perfect sense (at least to me :)).

7 Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.
8 And it came about, whenever Moses went out to the tent, that all the people would arise and stand, each at the entrance of his tent, and gaze after Moses until he entered the tent.
9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses.
10 When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent.
11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent. ~Exodus 33​

Thank you all for your input thus far :)

Yours and His,
David
 
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st_worm2 said:
I think I agree with this too. I struggled with the qualifying phrase "face to face, like a man talks with his friend", but it's easy to understand what Moses meant in context (see below), especially if you consider the manner/form that the Lord chose to present Himself to Moses in (a pillar of cloud .. v9), and also when you realize where God 'was' when He spoke to Moses (God stood outside the entrance of Moses' tent while he sat within). It seems to me that God did indeed speak to Moses, "face to face", but He did so from the inside of the "pillar of cloud", so that His "glory" could not be seen by him.

So understanding, "face to face", this way (in context) makes perfect sense (at least to me :)).

7 Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.
8 And it came about, whenever Moses went out to the tent, that all the people would arise and stand, each at the entrance of his tent, and gaze after Moses until he entered the tent.
9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses.
10 When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent.
11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent. ~Exodus 33​

Thank you all for your input thus far :)

Yours and His,
David
Click to expand...

We do not have to look very far to see the face of God:

Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
 
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