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How did the Godhead prove they were "love," before creation began?

Goldwing

Member
The Bible claims, " God is love." Love is not proven by just claiming you love someone, there must be consistent actions to prove it. That said, and knowing that God is transparent, what combined information gathered within the Bible on the Godhead, reveal the choices each member of the Godhead made to prove they are, "Love," before creation began?

I will allow this thread to gather, say 25 or more post, before I share what I think is very enlightening.
 
D-D-W, prove is from our perspective. Understanding their actions before creation.
OK. But why does God have to prove something to us?
Do you not believe in the trinity? In Zec.14:9, God is plural.
Actually not. YHVH (God's personal Name) is singular in both places in that verse.

Zech 14:9 NKJV
And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The Lord is one,” And His name one.


But I will give you this: "one" is echad - a composite unity rather than an absolute singularity.

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Shema Yisrael Adonai (YHVH) Elohenu Adonai (YHVH) echad.

Mark 12:29
Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord;


Our Lord quoted the most famous statement of God being one. But it mentions God by name 3 times. Elohenu, can be either singular or plural. The -nu ending means "our." The singular is Elohey and the plural Elohim.

All of that said, yes I do believe in the Trinity, but I do not believe in 3 separate beings. That is the ancient heresy of tri-theism. I am monotheistic. I am also not a modalist; meaning that God is sometimes father, sometimes son and sometimes spirit.

God is One.
God is three.
God is seven. (Rev 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6)

Do I understand any of that? No.
 
The proof
That God loved mankind:
Father God forsook his son
Jesus was alone on the cross in death
The Holy Spirit (who was to raise Jesus from the dead) was not active

The godhead demonstrated their love of mankind at one time. The time of day is even recorded.
What creation? Eternal life for mankind. Took all the godhead.

eddif
 
I appreciate all your post, you'r giving this some thought. keep them coming. However, give thought to a time when just the trinity existed. All three are, "Love." What did each of them do which shows, they are love, not to prove it, but its just what they are, and there actions bear this out, and the scriptures support those actions.
Very interesting answers, but I do like what for_his_glory stated in post no. 14.

When ONLY the 3 of the Godhead existed, God planned to create man, knew he would sin, and made a solution for this serious problem.

Don't know what else we could know from scripture, except that God wanted to create loving beings, which He then did do as in Genesis 1.
 
OK. But why does God have to prove something to us?

Actually not. YHVH (God's personal Name) is singular in both places in that verse.

Zech 14:9 NKJV
And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The Lord is one,” And His name one.


But I will give you this: "one" is echad - a composite unity rather than an absolute singularity.

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Shema Yisrael Adonai (YHVH) Elohenu Adonai (YHVH) echad.

Mark 12:29
Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord;


Our Lord quoted the most famous statement of God being one. But it mentions God by name 3 times. Elohenu, can be either singular or plural. The -nu ending means "our." The singular is Elohey and the plural Elohim.

All of that said, yes I do believe in the Trinity, but I do not believe in 3 separate beings. That is the ancient heresy of tri-theism. I am monotheistic. I am also not a modalist; meaning that God is sometimes father, sometimes son and sometimes spirit.

God is One.
God is three.
God is seven. (Rev 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6)

Do I understand any of that? No.
You know, DDW, I find it rather scary when, at times, I think I understand the Trinity.
But, I do believe it's beyond our intellect, but I still accept it.
 
Ok, so the following is what I believe answers my question. You may not agree, that's fine. But to me it makes perfect sense when all the texts are considered.

Untold Story of Jesus – Three Roles of the Godhead Decided – Chapter 3
By
Larry W. Wilson
January 15, 2020

Think about it: three separate, distinct, equal, coeternal Gods functioning as one God because of love! Just saying God is love is insignificant until you realize that each deity still has the power, rights, and prerogatives that come with being deity, yet, each day, freely chooses to forfeit two-thirds of His powers, rights, and prerogatives so, together, they can serve the universe as one. No one else in the universe would dare do this for even a minute–much less eternity!

My best deduction is that after the three Gods determined what their relationship should be, they began to discuss the changes they would have to make. Two Gods agreed to give up omnipresence so only one would be omnipresent. This may seem strange, but we see this decision in Jesus’ words when He said to His disciples, “But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (John 16:7)Jesus is saying He and the Father surrendered the power to be everywhere at the same time to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the only God using the power of omnipresence. Through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, Jesus would be with His disciples in real time wherever they are. If one disciple was in Rome, one in India, and one in northern Africa carrying the gospel, Jesus could not be with each of them if He remained on Earth. This is why He said, “It is for your good that I am going away.”

Two Gods agreed to give up the power of omniscience so only one God has foreknowledge. Jesus stated He did not have foreknowledge when He said, “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mat.24:36) Later, when Jesus was exalted to the throne, I am confident the Father told Him the appointed time.

If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were to have access to the foreknowledge that deities inherently possess, an important problem arises. The Bible teaches the Father used His foreknowledge to write a book containing top-secret information before anything or anyone was created. (Rev.17:8) This book contains a history of the drama of sin, and information about who will be saved and lost. The Father recorded this sensitive information before anything was created to exonerate Himself from false charges that would arise later on. Afterwards, He secured the book with seven seals so that no one could know what He foreknew until the book was opened and its contents revealed at the end of the 1,000 years.(Rev.20:12)

If Jesus and the Holy Spirit had foreknowledge, they also would know what the Father foreknew: the contents of His book. If the Holy Spirit and Jesus foreknew what was in the book, the devil would have a compelling argument against the Godhead! Satan could argue that since the Godhead already knows who will be saved and lost, the eternal destiny of angels and human beings has been predetermined. This would bolster his assertion that free will is a joke because everyone’s destiny is already written down.

Two Gods agreed to surrender their foreknowledge and trust one God with foreknowledge throughout eternity. This kind of surrender can only come through pure love; each God loving the other two with all of His heart, mind, and soul. Who else would give up such amazing power?

Keep in mind each member of deity has free will to break His vow of love and violate the first law at any time. Of course, this would be out of character and contrary to their faithfulness, but I mention it to underscore why their enduring love for one another is so important. Love literally holds the universe together and anyone wishing to become a member of the “family of God” has to love the Godhead in the same way each member loves one another! This explains why their offspring are granted life for as long as they choose to love the Godhead with all of their hearts, minds, and souls. We demonstrate our love for God when we choose to obey and live within boundaries ordained by divine wisdom. Considering the natural propensity for love given to the angels, and which Adam and Eve enjoyed before their fall, and what history reveals the Godhead has done for sinners, who can find fault with the first and greatest commandment? The whole universe is built around it!

The Bible affirms that two Gods agreed to give up omnipotence so that only one God would have authority over everything. (1 Timothy 6:15-16) This is difficult for our sinful natures to comprehend so it is understandable why people conclude there is only one God! Remember, the greatness and largeness of the Godhead is an endless and difficult study. However, no study or research produces a greater blessing, because this study ends with a transformative understanding of love! Love awakens love. Even though the Godhead is unlike us in so many ways and we have many serious impediments in understanding them, each person has an ability to comprehend their love. Paul wrote, “God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance.”(Rm. 2:4)

Two Gods agreed to give up their ability to create so that one God would be the Creator of everything that exists; everything in the universe is held together by His power alone! “He [Jesus] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Col. 1:17)

The three Gods also agreed that only one God would be their spokesperson, and He would be called “The Word.” (John 1:1) This meant the universe would hear one God speaking throughout all eternity. Also, one God would sit on the throne of the universe and the other two would submit to His foreknowledge and will. They also agreed two Gods would remain invisible for all eternity.

Note: All three Gods are actually invisible. The God we call “Jesus” lives within the form of a created being. Of course, His form can be seen, but the deity living within the form cannot be seen. Before coming to Earth, Jesus lived in the form of an angel and after His birth, in the form of a man, but these are only “forms.” Jesus was given a body at birth because He is invisible. (Heb. 10:5) We see this phenomenon in the fifth trumpet. During the Great Tribulation, the devil and his demons will be allowed to appear physically. They will be given “bodily forms” which human beings can see and touch. At the Second Coming, these “forms” will be thrown into the lake of fire, (Rev. 19:20) but the devil and his demons will be returned to the Abyss for 1,000 years. (REV. 20:2-3) When Lucifer tempted Eve, he inhabited the form of a serpent. Demons can inhabit pigs and drown them; (Mat.8:32) they can also inhabit human beings and give them incredible strength. (Mark 5:4) Samson’s great strength was the result of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. (Judges 13:24-25) I have digressed for a moment to better explain that three infinite Gods are invisible because a finite form cannot define an infinite God.

The three Gods also agreed that whatever was created belonged to the God who sat on the throne. (Rev.4:9-11; John 17:6; Heb.2:10) The other two Gods would own nothing unless the Father gave it to them. Remember, infinite love and wisdom compelled three Gods to voluntarily surrender themselves to one another so that their children would worship them forever as One God. “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God [elohiym, plural], the Lord is one [in purpose, plan and action]. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength [this is the first and greatest commandment].” (Deu.6:4-5) Although no one other than the three Gods attended the meeting, we can safely assume they actually made these decisions because the Bible affirms as much. If one God is changeless, so are the other two. (Malachi 3:6; Heb 13:8) Their love for each other has not changed from the beginning. What we know about their relationship has endured since their relationship began. They are equals, like identical triplets, with the same nature and substance. (Phil. 2:6-7) They have chosen to live forever as Gods with self-imposed limitations so they may serve their offspring as one God. Truly, God (elohiym, plural) is love.
 
Ok, so the following is what I believe answers my question. You may not agree, that's fine. But to me it makes perfect sense when all the texts are considered.

Untold Story of Jesus – Three Roles of the Godhead Decided – Chapter 3
By
Larry W. Wilson
January 15, 2020

Think about it: three separate, distinct, equal, coeternal Gods functioning as one God because of love! Just saying God is love is insignificant until you realize that each deity still has the power, rights, and prerogatives that come with being deity, yet, each day, freely chooses to forfeit two-thirds of His powers, rights, and prerogatives so, together, they can serve the universe as one. No one else in the universe would dare do this for even a minute–much less eternity!

My best deduction is that after the three Gods determined what their relationship should be, they began to discuss the changes they would have to make. Two Gods agreed to give up omnipresence so only one would be omnipresent. This may seem strange, but we see this decision in Jesus’ words when He said to His disciples, “But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (John 16:7)Jesus is saying He and the Father surrendered the power to be everywhere at the same time to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the only God using the power of omnipresence. Through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, Jesus would be with His disciples in real time wherever they are. If one disciple was in Rome, one in India, and one in northern Africa carrying the gospel, Jesus could not be with each of them if He remained on Earth. This is why He said, “It is for your good that I am going away.”

Two Gods agreed to give up the power of omniscience so only one God has foreknowledge. Jesus stated He did not have foreknowledge when He said, “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mat.24:36) Later, when Jesus was exalted to the throne, I am confident the Father told Him the appointed time.

If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were to have access to the foreknowledge that deities inherently possess, an important problem arises. The Bible teaches the Father used His foreknowledge to write a book containing top-secret information before anything or anyone was created. (Rev.17:8) This book contains a history of the drama of sin, and information about who will be saved and lost. The Father recorded this sensitive information before anything was created to exonerate Himself from false charges that would arise later on. Afterwards, He secured the book with seven seals so that no one could know what He foreknew until the book was opened and its contents revealed at the end of the 1,000 years.(Rev.20:12)

If Jesus and the Holy Spirit had foreknowledge, they also would know what the Father foreknew: the contents of His book. If the Holy Spirit and Jesus foreknew what was in the book, the devil would have a compelling argument against the Godhead! Satan could argue that since the Godhead already knows who will be saved and lost, the eternal destiny of angels and human beings has been predetermined. This would bolster his assertion that free will is a joke because everyone’s destiny is already written down.

Two Gods agreed to surrender their foreknowledge and trust one God with foreknowledge throughout eternity. This kind of surrender can only come through pure love; each God loving the other two with all of His heart, mind, and soul. Who else would give up such amazing power?

Keep in mind each member of deity has free will to break His vow of love and violate the first law at any time. Of course, this would be out of character and contrary to their faithfulness, but I mention it to underscore why their enduring love for one another is so important. Love literally holds the universe together and anyone wishing to become a member of the “family of God” has to love the Godhead in the same way each member loves one another! This explains why their offspring are granted life for as long as they choose to love the Godhead with all of their hearts, minds, and souls. We demonstrate our love for God when we choose to obey and live within boundaries ordained by divine wisdom. Considering the natural propensity for love given to the angels, and which Adam and Eve enjoyed before their fall, and what history reveals the Godhead has done for sinners, who can find fault with the first and greatest commandment? The whole universe is built around it!

The Bible affirms that two Gods agreed to give up omnipotence so that only one God would have authority over everything. (1 Timothy 6:15-16) This is difficult for our sinful natures to comprehend so it is understandable why people conclude there is only one God! Remember, the greatness and largeness of the Godhead is an endless and difficult study. However, no study or research produces a greater blessing, because this study ends with a transformative understanding of love! Love awakens love. Even though the Godhead is unlike us in so many ways and we have many serious impediments in understanding them, each person has an ability to comprehend their love. Paul wrote, “God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance.”(Rm. 2:4)

Two Gods agreed to give up their ability to create so that one God would be the Creator of everything that exists; everything in the universe is held together by His power alone! “He [Jesus] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Col. 1:17)

The three Gods also agreed that only one God would be their spokesperson, and He would be called “The Word.” (John 1:1) This meant the universe would hear one God speaking throughout all eternity. Also, one God would sit on the throne of the universe and the other two would submit to His foreknowledge and will. They also agreed two Gods would remain invisible for all eternity.

Note: All three Gods are actually invisible. The God we call “Jesus” lives within the form of a created being. Of course, His form can be seen, but the deity living within the form cannot be seen. Before coming to Earth, Jesus lived in the form of an angel and after His birth, in the form of a man, but these are only “forms.” Jesus was given a body at birth because He is invisible. (Heb. 10:5) We see this phenomenon in the fifth trumpet. During the Great Tribulation, the devil and his demons will be allowed to appear physically. They will be given “bodily forms” which human beings can see and touch. At the Second Coming, these “forms” will be thrown into the lake of fire, (Rev. 19:20) but the devil and his demons will be returned to the Abyss for 1,000 years. (REV. 20:2-3) When Lucifer tempted Eve, he inhabited the form of a serpent. Demons can inhabit pigs and drown them; (Mat.8:32) they can also inhabit human beings and give them incredible strength. (Mark 5:4) Samson’s great strength was the result of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. (Judges 13:24-25) I have digressed for a moment to better explain that three infinite Gods are invisible because a finite form cannot define an infinite God.

The three Gods also agreed that whatever was created belonged to the God who sat on the throne. (Rev.4:9-11; John 17:6; Heb.2:10) The other two Gods would own nothing unless the Father gave it to them. Remember, infinite love and wisdom compelled three Gods to voluntarily surrender themselves to one another so that their children would worship them forever as One God. “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God [elohiym, plural], the Lord is one [in purpose, plan and action]. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength [this is the first and greatest commandment].” (Deu.6:4-5) Although no one other than the three Gods attended the meeting, we can safely assume they actually made these decisions because the Bible affirms as much. If one God is changeless, so are the other two. (Malachi 3:6; Heb 13:8) Their love for each other has not changed from the beginning. What we know about their relationship has endured since their relationship began. They are equals, like identical triplets, with the same nature and substance. (Phil. 2:6-7) They have chosen to live forever as Gods with self-imposed limitations so they may serve their offspring as one God. Truly, God (elohiym, plural) is love.
Too long.

But I think I don't agree.
Could you cut it down?
 
Too long.

But I think I don't agree.
Could you cut it down?
I join you in not agree.

I was looking for Bible verses and got Larry W. Wilson. Also by extension we would wind up with Wilson's attack of Ellen G. White in his books ( which I have not read).

1 Corinthians 1:12 kjv
12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 3:4 kjv
4. For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

What eddif says is to be checked out with scripture. I seem to hear confusion in the quoted passage by Wilson.

eddif
 
I could, but the detail, builds for greater understanding of why God is love.
Some here might know why God is love and just would like a short version of why You think he is.
Not everyone will read a long post.
But it's your thread,,,do what you wish.

Question:
When Jesus was on earth...
Was one of the 3 Persons missing in heaven?
 
I join you in not agree.

I was looking for Bible verses and got Larry W. Wilson. Also by extension we would wind up with Wilson's attack of Ellen G. White in his books ( which I have not read).

1 Corinthians 1:12 kjv
12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 3:4 kjv
4. For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

What eddif says is to be checked out with scripture. I seem to hear confusion in the quoted passage by Wilson.

eddif
First , I can't read all that stuff that somebody thinks. I skimmed through it and found ideas I've never heard of before.

I agree with you that we should stick to the bible Unless a writer helps us to understand a biblical teaching better.

Here, instead, I hear new ideas.
Man's words may or may not reflect truth.
 
Think about it: three separate, distinct, equal, coeternal Gods functioning as one God because of love! Just saying God is love is insignificant until you realize that each deity still has the power, rights, and prerogatives that come with being deity, yet, each day, freely chooses to forfeit two-thirds of His powers, rights, and prerogatives so, together, they can serve the universe as one. No one else in the universe would dare do this for even a minute–much less eternity!
No, No and three times NO! That is called the ancient heresy of Tri-theism. There is only ONE GOD!
 
Some here might know why God is love and just would like a short version of why You think he is.
Not everyone will read a long post.
But it's your thread,,,do what you wish.
Nobody can explain God's ways in sound bites. For those who wish to know God through sound bits, really do not want to understand the deep things of God. That is not who I am.
 
Nobody can explain God's ways in sound bites. For those who wish to know God through sound bits, really do not want to understand the deep things of God. That is not who I am.
Sure.
I can explain the red thread of redemption in sound bites.
Sound bites are easy to read and respond to.

Also, you didn't reply to my question:

When Jesus was on earth, was one of the 3 Persons missing in heaven?

This happens to be a deep question.
 
First , I can't read all that stuff that somebody thinks. I skimmed through it and found ideas I've never heard of before.

I agree with you that we should stick to the bible Unless a writer helps us to understand a biblical teaching better.

Here, instead, I hear new ideas.
Man's words may or may not reflect truth.
Mr. Wilson has authored many books, that have been translated in many languages and distributed in over forty countries. He considered that is best talent was that of a Bible teacher. His material has helped thousands the world over to better understand the Bible.

Perhaps your not a reader, not all are. His teaching can also be viewed on line. or cd's.

It is true that man's word may or may not reflect truth. But unless we have opened minds to consider what one has to offer, one will never know if it is truth or not.

Is it possible for anyone to expand ones knowledge, without hearing something new?

The the step progression toward truth:
1. First it is outright claimed as false.
2. It is thought to have some truth to it.
3. It is claimed to be absolute truth.
 
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