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How did the Godhead prove they were "love," before creation began?

Goldwing

Member
The Bible claims, " God is love." Love is not proven by just claiming you love someone, there must be consistent actions to prove it. That said, and knowing that God is transparent, what combined information gathered within the Bible on the Godhead, reveal the choices each member of the Godhead made to prove they are, "Love," before creation began?

I will allow this thread to gather, say 25 or more post, before I share what I think is very enlightening.
 
Is love "an action toward another living being"? As I said, philosophers disagree as to whether love even has a nature that can be described.

If a single God is love, why would he need to "demonstrate" it in order to be love? "Being" love and "expressing" love seem to me to be two different things.

This argument as to why there has to be a Trinity is clever, and I'm not pooh-poohing it. I just don't find it too convincing.
I find it quite convincing as a proof for the Trinity. We refer to exceedingly high self-love as narcissism. The greatest form of love is that which is expressed towards another--"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). If God's nature is love, that is, he cannot not love, then certainly if our greatest form of love is seen in an action towards another, that God must necessarily have eternally been loving toward "another" in some way.

Just as you think that being love and expressing love are two different things, I do not see how being love could not necessitate expressing love. So, while they might be two different things, they are two sides of a coin, and one cannot be love without expressing it.

In my extremely pared-down, bare-bones list of Christian essentials, I basically have the notion that whoever and whatever Jesus was, his incarnation, life, crucifixion and resurrection were sufficient to accomplish God's plan, atone for mankind's sin, and allow fallen individuals to join God's eternal kingdom. That to me is the essential we must believe and avoids the fussing, feuding and confusion over exactly who he was and exactly how it works.
Yet, Jesus is the central figure of the entirety of Scripture; it all points to him, it is all about him, and we find our salvation through him. So certainly one must believe Jesus is who the Bible reveals him to be in order to be saved. That isn't to say that some correction can't come later on, but I don't see how we could say that as long as one believe Jesus is the unique Son of God, they are saved. Even that belief varies widely among those who want to be thought of as Christian.
 
My best deduction is that after the three Gods determined what their relationship should be, they began to discuss the changes they would have to make. Two Gods agreed to give up omnipresence so only one would be omnipresent.

An un biblical supersion.
Either one trusts what God has revealed or like this guy one makes it up as you go along.
 
Actually that is not quite true. During the time our Lord was on the cross, He was cut off from the rest of the Godhead. That is why He cried out; "My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
Yes. I have heard the above.
I have also heard that Jesus could have been repeating Psalm 22 which ends in praise.
I have also heard that Jesus felt abandoned by His Apostles (except John), His fellow Jewish believers, the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees, and just felt totally abandoned.

I don't know if we can be sure what Jesus really meant.
Surely He felt cut off, even if He wasn't.
But this is conjecture and I don't really like to make statements we cannot be sure of.
 
Yes. I have heard the above.
I have also heard that Jesus could have been repeating Psalm 22 which ends in praise.
I have also heard that Jesus felt abandoned by His Apostles (except John), His fellow Jewish believers, the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees, and just felt totally abandoned.

I don't know if we can be sure what Jesus really meant.
Surely He felt cut off, even if He wasn't.
But this is conjecture and I don't really like to make statements we cannot be sure of.
You are right, it was in fulfilment of prophesy. There are other things as well, like riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.
.
 
Being One they would have to do everything together. Jesus was simply God made visible. That is how the Father did everything Jesus did, and Jesus did everything the Father did.
.
Cooper, your statement implies you believe in one God, who manifest Himself in three different individuals. Thus from your position your statement makes sense to you and others. But for most, the Bible is clear there are three distinct deities, Jesus is the only one taking on the form of man, His creation to reveal the other two who will always remain invisible.

From your perspective, what sense does it make for Jesus to call out to the Father if He, Himself, was the Father in part?
 
... you believe in one God, who manifest Himself in three different individuals.... But for most, the Bible is clear there are three distinct deities,
Both concepts are considered heretical. The first is the heresy of Modalism, and the 2nd is the heresy of Tri-theism.
 
It amazes me that someone could ponder this, for it is so wonderful. Also, 25 posts is a great gimmick to get people to post. It's sort of a trick question, though. The Trinity always exists before creation, because the essence of the Godhead exists in eternity, beyond time. Simultaneously, God's omnipresence extends throughout temporal creation as well, as all things consist in Him. A three in one duality. Did you just feel your mind explode?

I think the John17:24 quote is the closest so far:

John14:21 "He who has my commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

That is a promise of God. Do you think that if God gives you a promise you will be unaware when He fulfills it? At that Day you will know it. Moses knew it in the cleft of the rock. And Jesus is the express image of the Father. At that Day you will know it. But first of all, how do you think that the love of God exists in your heart? By your profession of faith you revealed that the Holy Spirit is with you, in love. Have you ever started spontaneously singing His praise out of joy? Yes, at that Day you did know it.

What does it mean to keep the commandments? Compare the wording of Luke8:15 with Mark4:20.

1Tim1:15 "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." Common salvation is by free-will acceptance Prov16:1, but the gospel of Jesus Christ was predestined from the beginning, but that's a whole new kettle of fish... 153+1 to be exact. And the people of the Lord said, "Amen".
 
Alright, I just noticed that I chimed in at the end of page #1.
There are three more pages that I didn't read before posting.
More to contemplate. Hmmm...
 
OK, there's a few things to discuss.

God is love, yes, because love is God's being. Infinite-light-love-being. Glory. And, of course, God's love was expressed, because, to begin with, God's love, His being, is The Power which was necessary for creation to be wrought. The Spirit of God, the Ruach, is the formless Power which existed primordially along with the polarities of the Panim, which is the Presences of the Father and the Son. The Ruach and the Panim: the Trinity. The Panim have identical form by virtue of polarity, but polarity never faces the same direction. The Son is the express(ed) image of the Father, who's countenance we cannot see, or we die.

The Trinity is true because there has to be a prime mover and polarity, for creation to exist. Though in three parts, there can be only one God, in essence. If there were three Gods, then there would have to be a fourth God who existed before them who created them. That is what would happen if The Spirit of God was different than The Holy Spirit; but The Power is the same as The Paraclete, though differing experientially in position and intensity.

Incidentally, in a contest between an irresistible force and an immovable object, the irresistible force would win;
by attrition.

The Trinity can be thought of in mathematical terms, which is something that Rene Descart speculated upon. My thought in this regard is that in eternity, the Trinity is 1=3^0, and in temporality, the Trinity is 1^3=1. So, like an hourglass between heaven and earth, 3^0=1=1^3. However, this is just a simple mental illustration.

The nature of the Trinity during the incarnation of Jesus is not so easy to understand. I see it in terms of a pinhole camera. A camera doesn't need a lens, if the aperture is very small. In order for the Word, the Logos, to become incarnate, one polarity had to squeeze through a pinhole, into a very small cavity that is a vessel. In order for the vessel to not break, most of the Glory had to be left behind, with the Father. While the sentience of the Son existed in the vessel, a pinhole connection to His distant Glory and the Father/Power meant that certain capabilities were restricted, and so it was necessary to follow instructions; and so there was some information which was not given, for good reasons. You can call His earthly condition a state of temporarily distended omniscience.


When Jesus called out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", He was calling out to both the Father and the Power. That shows that the Trinity was intact throughout His incarnation. Further, forsaken does not mean deserted. It means that Jesus was experiencing the occulted Trinity. The Father/Power was hidden from Him because of the burden of sin which He took upon Himself. It is as if thick dust was shaken loose by an earthquake into the focal frame inside a pinhole camera. As Jesus previously referred to this, "the night is coming when no one can work" John9:4,5 which was from then until the resurrection. The resurrection is when Jesus overcame sin. As He did not die spiritually, but only physically, and He was the Word made flesh, His flesh could not stay dead once sin had been cleared away by atonement, which was like a spark in a dusty grain silo. Once the "dust" of all believers sins had been consumed by holy fire, then the occulted Trinity reverted back to at-one-ment.


I'll save the discussion of the seven Spirits of God for later, God willing.
Of course, this is all still only an approximation of Truth, but it's pretty good, for a human tongue, in English speech.
 
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