How do Calvinists know, that they have eternal life ?

[glorydaz]

you said -----Again, if people do not claim this provision - is the provision still effectively valid in their case? If you are confused about what I'm asking, please tell me so. What I'm driving at is just this - If a person does not claim God's provision for forgiveness of sins, is the provision still applied to that person and are his sins still forgiven? If they are, then what's the use of this condition - that they have to believe in Christ to have their sins forgiven - they'd be forgiven anyway, right?

Grubal-----The "provision" is available to anyone, due to the fact, "Christ died for the sins of ALL men." But in order to benefit from His "sacrifice" one must, hear the word, believe the word and have that word "applied to one's life. Nonetheless, the provision is available...

you said-----
I've rephrased the same question as many times as you've rephrased this same above statement - I'm hoping for an unambiguous answer. What happens if a person does not claim it[the provision of God] - is the provision still given to them?

Grubal----- unequivocally, no...To draw an analogy, a business provides medical insurance to "all" it's employees, but, in order to benefit from said,insurance one must sign up for it. Some may choose (for whatever reason) to pass on the insurance, but nonetheless it is available to ALL"

Good analogy, Grubal. If I may, I'd like to offer the "serpent on a pole".

Jesus refers to this provision here...

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The people of Israel were bitten by poisonous serpents (sin). In order to live they had to look upon the brass serpent. They could have chosen to run around in circles and spread the poison throughout their body, or try some herbal remedy, etc. The provision was there to live...they had only to look and live.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Good analogy, Grubal. If I may, I'd like to offer the "serpent on a pole".

Jesus refers to this provision here...

The people of Israel were bitten by poisonous serpents (sin). In order to live they had to look upon the brass serpent. They could have chosen to run around in circles and spread the poison throughout their body, or try some herbal remedy, etc. The provision was there to live...they had only to look and live.

glorydaz-----Your "analogy" was far superior to my own, because you used the "truth" of the Scripture. I commend you for that...Some people would not like that Scripture,due to the fact it speaks of man having a part in his own remedy...Man had to "look" upon that brass serpent before healing could take place. Yikes!! evil man played a part in his own healing...

 

[glorydaz]

glorydaz-----Your "analogy" was far superior to my own, because you used the "truth" of the Scripture. I commend you for that...Some people would not like that Scripture,due to the fact it speaks of man having a part in his own remedy...Man had to "look" upon that brass serpent before healing could take place. Yikes!! evil man played a part in his own healing...

It's true many do not like to address the serpent on a pole, and yet it addresses man's reliance on himself, refusal to trust and believe, and his thinking his works or following the law will gain him life. It's the same with the opening of the prison door. The door has been opened by Jesus' work on the cross, but man has to choose to leave his cell. So far whenever I've brought that up, it's been ignored. I'm glad you see it as clearly as I do, Grubal.

You're absolutely correct when you say sin has been dealt with for all, but not all will take advantage of that provision. We know from those two examples that life and freedom is offered to all men...not just a select few.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It's true many do not like to address the serpent on a pole, and yet it addresses man's reliance on himself, refusal to trust and believe, and his thinking his works or following the law will gain him life. It's the same with the opening of the prison door. The door has been opened by Jesus' work on the cross, but man has to choose to leave his cell. So far whenever I've brought that up, it's been ignored. I'm glad you see it as clearly as I do, Grubal.

You're absolutely correct when you say sin has been dealt with for all, but not all will take advantage of that provision. We know from those two examples that life and freedom is offered to all men...not just a select few.

AMEN!!!

 

[mythunderstood]

Are man's sins forgiven already and God's mercy granted already before a person believes into Christ - or does this happen effectively after one believes?

My simple answer would be, no, after. How can a "gift" be given, "before" it's been delivered and subsequently been received ? There's an order to everything...

If you consider delivering a locked box (with no key) to a recipient as giving a "gift", then I would consider that gift to be useless. If a person is unable to access what is inside, then he/she cannot even decide whether to accept or reject it. Only if a key (holy spirit) is provided in order to access the gift, is the gift of any potential use. It is up to the Gift-Giver who he decides to send a key to.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If you consider delivering a locked box (with no key) to a recipient as giving a "gift", then I would consider that gift to be useless. If a person is unable to access what is inside, then he/she cannot even decide whether to accept or reject it. Only if a key (holy spirit) is provided in order to access the gift, is the gift of any potential use. It is up to the Gift-Giver who he decides to send a key to.

The gift was offered up by God. But, "you" have to sign for it. Understand the analogy??

 

[childeye]

It's true many do not like to address the serpent on a pole, and yet it addresses man's reliance on himself, refusal to trust and believe, and his thinking his works or following the law will gain him life. It's the same with the opening of the prison door. The door has been opened by Jesus' work on the cross, but man has to choose to leave his cell. So far whenever I've brought that up, it's been ignored. I'm glad you see it as clearly as I do, Grubal.

You're absolutely correct when you say sin has been dealt with for all, but not all will take advantage of that provision. We know from those two examples that life and freedom is offered to all men...not just a select few.

I like this serpent on a pole example. So you and Grubal say we had to look upon the brass serpent to live and this is proof of freewill. While I and others are saying we had to look on the brass serpent to live and this is proof there is not freewill.

So let's take this a step at a time. For you and Grubal feel that as long as man had to do something he has a freewill. I must say you are simply describing a will for a will must do something. So let's say a person did not choose to look at the brass serpent, still this is a freewill to you and Grubal, so in truth he did not have to look at the brass serpent allbeit he died. Consequwntly there is a choice we make whether we live or die. As we examine this Truth we can only conclude that we live or die depending upon whether we trust God or not.

The question is now whether a person can choose to have trust in God, for if he thinks he will live by choosing to not trust God he is in error and he will die despite his ability to choose. Therefore there is no option if one wishes to live. Moreover, you and Grubal maintain that this choice is made freely when it was Satan who introduced the notion that mankind could distrust God and live as scripture shows.

Let's take another perspective. The choice put forth in the garden by Satan, when we were alive in the garden and without sin was not a choice to live since we were already alive but only a choice to die although we did not see it as such since it was a lie. The choice put forth in the Christ is when we are already dead in sin and therefore is a choice to live but based upon the Truth. So it is a choice to believe a lie posing as Truth or believe the Truth being called a lie. One must knowingly be able to distinguish a lie from the Truth therefore to make an informed choice otherwise "freewill" as you define it is in reality random chance.

So God informs a man but as you will no doubt say man can deny the Truth of God's information because his will is free to do so while yet free to also believe. Again random chance. But the Truth I have seen is convincing and not equal to lies and so I believe because of this conviction and I give God total credit. It means nothing to me that man must do something since as long as we are alive we must do something. Since the devil uses a lie and God uses the Truth and ultimately we will choose between what we will believe to be true. So please answer this question. What lie is so powerful that the Truth cannot dispatch it and convince the unbeliever to believe?