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How do we discern what is legalism and what is allowed?

wondering said:
WIP, I agree with everything you've said.
Having been a catechist for 6 years (recently) I have seen in first person everything you've stated.

My reply is to your last sentence...which is:

Is it our goal to get saved or to please the Creator of all and let the saving rest in Him?

I'd say that the goal is to "get saved". In quotation marks because
I agree with what you said about walking down an isle and believing we've accomplished something without seeing a change in our lives...

I mean....HOW can we please our creaator UNLESS we believe in Him first and THEN to please Him?

Do you agree with this?
Can a person that DOES NOT believe in God,,,,possibly be pleasing Him?
Click to expand...



No but that doesn't mean that atheists always kill people and steal from them. However, I'm sure that even if they are white lies that they still lie every now and then, disobeye their parents, and they probably don't care at all if they take the Lord's name in vain.
 
Hi everybody!

I am new here and I have only written something in the Christianity and Science section.
I think my ideas about faith and salvation may be different from yours, but I fully respect your ideas and I hope that what I am saying will not offend anybody.
So let me try to explain my view.

I think that the expression "to believe in Christ" in the Bible means much more than "to think that Christ is the Son of God".
I think that "to believe in Christ" means "to trust and love Christ with all our heart".
The same is for the expression “to believe in God”. The importance of love is stressed all over the Bible, for example:

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied:”Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”

If a man believes that Christ is the Son of God but he does not love Christ, he is not different from the demons casted by Jesus ; they too believed that Jesus was the Son of God, nevertheless they are in Hell.

In other words, if a person believes that Jesus is the Son of God but he does't care about it, he is not saved because he doesn't really “believe” in Christ.

I think that the meaning of our life is to learn to love God more and more, which means to believe in God more and more. But how can we know if we really love God? This is explained clearly by Jesus Himself: for example

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He who has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves me: and he who loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our abode with him.

So, the more we keep His commandments, the more we love Jesus.

How about unbelievers?

If they keep Jesus' commandments, they love Him, even if they are not aware of loving Him; eventually they will understand that they love Him. In other words, an unbeliever who keeps God's comandments is closer to salvation than an unbeliever who doesn't keep them.

In conclusion, God's commandments are for everybody and not only for believers.

I also think that nobody can say “they are not saved” because only God knows who is saved and who is not saved.
 
Mmarco said:
Hi everybody!

I am new here and I have only written something in the Christianity and Science section.
I think my ideas about faith and salvation may be different from yours, but I fully respect your ideas and I hope that what I am saying will not offend anybody.
So let me try to explain my view.

I think that the expression "to believe in Christ" in the Bible means much more than "to think that Christ is the Son of God".
I think that "to believe in Christ" means "to trust and love Christ with all our heart".
The same is for the expression “to believe in God”. The importance of love is stressed all over the Bible, for example:

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied:”Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”

If a man believes that Christ is the Son of God but he does not love Christ, he is not different from the demons casted by Jesus ; they too believed that Jesus was the Son of God, nevertheless they are in Hell.

In other words, if a person believes that Jesus is the Son of God but he does't care about it, he is not saved because he doesn't really “believe” in Christ.

I think that the meaning of our life is to learn to love God more and more, which means to believe in God more and more. But how can we know if we really love God? This is explained clearly by Jesus Himself: for example

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He who has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves me: and he who loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our abode with him.

So, the more we keep His commandments, the more we love Jesus.

How about unbelievers?

If they keep Jesus' commandments, they love Him, even if they are not aware of loving Him; eventually they will understand that they love Him. In other words, an unbeliever who keeps God's comandments is closer to salvation than an unbeliever who doesn't keep them.

In conclusion, God's commandments are for everybody and not only for believers.

I also think that nobody can say “they are not saved” because only God knows who is saved and who is not saved.
Click to expand...





I forgot to respond to this earlier but I agree one hundred percent with everything that you just said and welcome to the forums. :biggrin
 
WIP said:
Peter is speaking about nonbelievers who are disobedient, correct? Unbelievers can be judged disobedient.

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
1 Peter 2:4-8 NKJV

All mankind was created and required to be obedient to God's laws.
Click to expand...

Your conclusion is not based on the content of v. 8.
 
wondering said:
WIP, I agree with everything you've said.
Having been a catechist for 6 years (recently) I have seen in first person everything you've stated.

My reply is to your last sentence...which is:

Is it our goal to get saved or to please the Creator of all and let the saving rest in Him?

I'd say that the goal is to "get saved". In quotation marks because
I agree with what you said about walking down an isle and believing we've accomplished something without seeing a change in our lives...

I mean....HOW can we please our creaator UNLESS we believe in Him first and THEN to please Him?

Do you agree with this?
Can a person that DOES NOT believe in God,,,,possibly be pleasing Him?
Click to expand...
I agree completely!
 
Mmarco said:
Hi everybody!

I am new here and I have only written something in the Christianity and Science section.
I think my ideas about faith and salvation may be different from yours, but I fully respect your ideas and I hope that what I am saying will not offend anybody.
So let me try to explain my view.

I think that the expression "to believe in Christ" in the Bible means much more than "to think that Christ is the Son of God".
I think that "to believe in Christ" means "to trust and love Christ with all our heart".
The same is for the expression “to believe in God”. The importance of love is stressed all over the Bible, for example:

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied:”Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”

If a man believes that Christ is the Son of God but he does not love Christ, he is not different from the demons casted by Jesus ; they too believed that Jesus was the Son of God, nevertheless they are in Hell.

In other words, if a person believes that Jesus is the Son of God but he does't care about it, he is not saved because he doesn't really “believe” in Christ.
Click to expand...

Hi M,

Welcome to the forum!

What you've stated above is very important.
There is a type of believing that is done only with the mind.
There is a type of believing that is done with the heart, as you've stated above.

The word believe means something very specific in the Greek.
It means to believe with both the mind and the heart. It means to trust, to follow, to obey.

In short, it means to follow Jesus and be a disciple.
In John 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that we must be born from above....
This means in spirit.
Our spirit must be in tune with God's spirit so that we could be fully alive.

I think that the meaning of our life is to learn to love God more and more, which means to believe in God more and more. But how can we know if we really love God? This is explained clearly by Jesus Himself: for example

John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He who has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves me: and he who loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our abode with him.

So, the more we keep His commandments, the more we love Jesus.
Click to expand...
Agreed!
I've quoted thee above verses many times.


How about unbelievers?

If they keep Jesus' commandments, they love Him, even if they are not aware of loving Him; eventually they will understand that they love Him. In other words, an unbeliever who keeps God's comandments is closer to salvation than an unbeliever who doesn't keep them.
Click to expand...
This is a very interesting concept.
I study with a friar, Fra' Lorenzo at the Sanctuary of the Madonna del Soccorso near my home. There's about 15 of us there. He agrees with you....the more a person tries to live a good life....the more opportunity he'll have to become a disciple of Christ..or a real Christian.

I do have to say that a non-believer cannot be close to God and must come to believe at some point in his life. You may not agree with this.

In conclusion, God's commandments are for everybody and not only for believers.

I also think that nobody can say “they are not saved” because only God knows who is saved and who is not saved.
Click to expand...
This is true.
As believers we can know if a person is wrong in AN ACTION..but we CANNOT know if a person is saved and should never make this determination. I have heard of these forums the pronunciation by some that a person is not saved. This is wrong.
 
wondering said:
I study with a friar, Fra' Lorenzo at the Sanctuary of the Madonna del Soccorso near my home. There's about 15 of us there. He agrees with you....the more a person tries to live a good life....the more opportunity he'll have to become a disciple of Christ..or a real Christian.

I do have to say that a non-believer cannot be close to God and must come to believe at some point in his life. You may not agree with this.
Click to expand...

Actually, I agree, but we cannot exclude the possibility that the non-believer may come to believe at the very point of death.
 
Mmarco said:
Actually, I agree, but we cannot exclude the possibility that the non-believer may come to believe at the very point of death.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
This is why we cannot judge a soul's salvation.

The catholic church teaches that we cannot even know for sure that Judas was lost in the end. And I agree with this.
 
OzSpen

LOL
I'm just printing out the article and I see that you mentioned
Mathew 10 in the very first paragraph.

We probably agree...
as usual.

Good night again.
9 pages.
 
wondering said:
without even reading it...
I think Judas was saved and then lost.

I base this on Mathew 10.
Would Jesus end Judas out with the others to preach and teach and expel demons, etc. if he were lost?

However, I'm printing out the article and then I'll write again tomorrow.

1 a.m. !

Good night.
Click to expand...

1565776880354.png
 
Edward said:
I once prayed that the Lord teach me discernment. He answered immediately and told me, to practice discernment, to practice listening and discerning His voice speaking to me through others...(people!)... that just blew my mind! He really does speak to us through other people at times. But, I digress, I think the answer to your question is to walk in the Spirit, constantly and moment by moment. In Galatians 5, it talks about it...

verse 16
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

verse 18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

verse 25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.../

When we walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit then we don't even have to worry about anything like that. We also have to...obey the Spirit.

I figure we have at least 3 voices inside of us. Our flesh mind, the enemy and our own spirit or maybe this one is the Holy Spirit I'm not positive, but I do know that our conscience (which is probably our spirit) is always in agreement with God's will and God's Spirit...because our spirit has always had a direct connection with our Lord (being a spirit) and scripture does state that the Holy Spirit bears witness (talks to) our spirit. So no wonder our conscience agrees with the Spirit of the Lord.

So if we always listen to and obey our spirit/conscience, the Holy Spirit...then we walk in the Spirit and there is no law. Legalism is not even an issue then. As long as we do not lose our sensitivity of awareness of the presence of God with us and, essentially, turn our back on Him and begin making our own decisions.

Does that make sense?
Click to expand...
Makes perfect sense
 
Edward said:
I once prayed that the Lord teach me discernment. He answered immediately and told me, to practice discernment, to practice listening and discerning His voice speaking to me through others...(people!)... that just blew my mind! He really does speak to us through other people at times. But, I digress, I think the answer to your question is to walk in the Spirit, constantly and moment by moment. In Galatians 5, it talks about it...

verse 16
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

verse 18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

verse 25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.../

When we walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit then we don't even have to worry about anything like that. We also have to...obey the Spirit.

I figure we have at least 3 voices inside of us. Our flesh mind, the enemy and our own spirit or maybe this one is the Holy Spirit I'm not positive, but I do know that our conscience (which is probably our spirit) is always in agreement with God's will and God's Spirit...because our spirit has always had a direct connection with our Lord (being a spirit) and scripture does state that the Holy Spirit bears witness (talks to) our spirit. So no wonder our conscience agrees with the Spirit of the Lord.

So if we always listen to and obey our spirit/conscience, the Holy Spirit...then we walk in the Spirit and there is no law. Legalism is not even an issue then. As long as we do not lose our sensitivity of awareness of the presence of God with us and, essentially, turn our back on Him and begin making our own decisions.

Does that make sense?
Click to expand...
I thought about this and I'd like to say this regarding your statement that we have three spirits inside of us.

I know what you mean, but really this is not really right....see if you agree with me:

You said we have the flesh: This is the body.
Then we have the enemy: This would be satan.
And then our spirit which you're not sure what it is and you said it's our conscience.

This is why it's important to understand HOW the human is made up. Here is official teaching...,not MY idea...tried with another member but it was useless.

Man is made up of either two or three components:

In one theory man is BODY and SOUL/SPIRIT
This is called dichotomy. Di = two

In the other theory man is BODY and SOUL and SPIRIT
This is called Trichotomy. Tri = three

I like the theory of trichotomy because it makes man easier to understand.

This is what you stated:
I figure we have at least 3 voices inside of us. Our flesh mind, the enemy and our own spirit or maybe this one is the Holy Spirit I'm not positive, but I do know that our conscience (which is probably our spirit) is always in agreement with God's will and God's Spirit...because our spirit has always had a direct connection with our Lord

Our concscience is NOT our Spirit.
Our conscience is part of our soul. I'm going to post an image below because it'll save me a lot of typing.

However, you are correct that OUR SPIRIT is in agreement with GOD'S SPIRIT. Our spirit certainly has a connection with God, as you've said.

It is important to know that our spirit AFFECTS our soul....
so our conscience DOES affect our spirit and V V , our spirit also affects our conscience.

OK...so we have
A BODY --- our physical body.
A SOUL --- our will, emotions, conscience, personality....etc.
A SPIRIT ---our connection to God.

Here is the image that will explain better.
=P.S. evil, or satan, affects our soul....
evil does NOT reside in us, but only has an affect since we still have the sin nature even though it's under submission to the Holy Spirit.

(1 Thes 5:23 mentions all three)


1565805141035.png
 
wondering said:
I thought about this and I'd like to say this regarding your statement that we have three spirits inside of us.

I know what you mean, but really this is not really right....see if you agree with me:

You said we have the flesh: This is the body.
Then we have the enemy: This would be satan.
And then our spirit which you're not sure what it is and you said it's our conscience.

This is why it's important to understand HOW the human is made up. Here is official teaching...,not MY idea...tried with another member but it was useless.

Man is made up of either two or three components:

In one theory man is BODY and SOUL/SPIRIT
This is called dichotomy. Di = two

In the other theory man is BODY and SOUL and SPIRIT
This is called Trichotomy. Tri = three

I like the theory of trichotomy because it makes man easier to understand.

This is what you stated:
I figure we have at least 3 voices inside of us. Our flesh mind, the enemy and our own spirit or maybe this one is the Holy Spirit I'm not positive, but I do know that our conscience (which is probably our spirit) is always in agreement with God's will and God's Spirit...because our spirit has always had a direct connection with our Lord

Our concscience is NOT our Spirit.
Our conscience is part of our soul. I'm going to post an image below because it'll save me a lot of typing.

However, you are correct that OUR SPIRIT is in agreement with GOD'S SPIRIT. Our spirit certainly has a connection with God, as you've said.

It is important to know that our spirit AFFECTS our soul....
so our conscience DOES affect our spirit and V V , our spirit also affects our conscience.

OK...so we have
A BODY --- our physical body.
A SOUL --- our will, emotions, conscience, personality....etc.
A SPIRIT ---our connection to God.

Here is the image that will explain better.
=P.S. evil, or satan, affects our soul....
evil does NOT reside in us, but only has an affect since we still have the sin nature even though it's under submission to the Holy Spirit.

(1 Thes 5:23 mentions all three)


View attachment 8823
Click to expand...

wondering,

I take a different line in the exegesis of 1 Thess 5:23. See: Unpacking 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

I take a different line in the exegesis of 1 Thess 5:23. See: Unpacking 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Oz
Click to expand...
Hi Oz,

First of all, regarding Judas,,,as I suspected we agree totally.
And it wasn't 9 pages,,,I printed another of your articles by mistake.

Re 1 Thes 5:23 I can answer right away.

I skimmed through the article and I agree with the trichotomy model of the human person and I've often stated why.

simply...it makes the most sense.

But whether you choose and understand the Di or the Tri, is fine because in either model we have BODY SOUL SPIRIT.

I DO like to separate the SOUL AND SPIRIT because if we combine them the question come up:
IS EVERYONE BORN WITH THE SPIRIT THEN?
DOES IT JUST BECOME AWAKENED AT SOME POINT'?

If you separate soul and spirit, the function of each can be better understood.

You listed some scripture where there is no spirit mentioned...for instance:
Matt 22:37 (NIV): ‘Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ No ‘spirit’ here.

Surely you must know that in the O.T. the word HEART was interchangeably used to mean soul OR spirit. For instance, in Matthew 22:37 the word spirit is not mentioned as you said,
but Jesus knew that we love with our mind, our heart and our soul. Hmmm. How does one love with the heart? It just pumps blood? It's a way of speaking.

Of course Jesus knew we have a spirit....
John 3:5

So then are we made up of BODY SOUL SPIRIT AND HEART!
No. of course not.

Those that believe we are only body are atheists, of course.
As for believing in either of the two Christian models for man....I don't really see any problem with either one because they both have the 3 elements. body, soul and spirit.
 
wondering said:
Hi Oz,

First of all, regarding Judas,,,as I suspected we agree totally.
And it wasn't 9 pages,,,I printed another of your articles by mistake.

Re 1 Thes 5:23 I can answer right away.

I skimmed through the article and I agree with the trichotomy model of the human person and I've often stated why.

simply...it makes the most sense.

But whether you choose and understand the Di or the Tri, is fine because in either model we have BODY SOUL SPIRIT.

I DO like to separate the SOUL AND SPIRIT because if we combine them the question come up:
IS EVERYONE BORN WITH THE SPIRIT THEN?
DOES IT JUST BECOME AWAKENED AT SOME POINT'?

If you separate soul and spirit, the function of each can be better understood.

You listed some scripture where there is no spirit mentioned...for instance:
Matt 22:37 (NIV): ‘Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ No ‘spirit’ here.

Surely you must know that in the O.T. the word HEART was interchangeably used to mean soul OR spirit. For instance, in Matthew 22:37 the word spirit is not mentioned as you said,
but Jesus knew that we love with our mind, our heart and our soul. Hmmm. How does one love with the heart? It just pumps blood? It's a way of speaking.

Of course Jesus knew we have a spirit....
John 3:5

So then are we made up of BODY SOUL SPIRIT AND HEART!
No. of course not.

Those that believe we are only body are atheists, of course.
As for believing in either of the two Christian models for man....I don't really see any problem with either one because they both have the 3 elements. body, soul and spirit.
Click to expand...

wondering,

As I indicated in the article,

the meaning is not to develop support for a trichotomous view of human beings but for a holistic view of people. Lenski explained:
The question is simple: “is man composed of two or of three parts?” In other words, can spirit and soul be divided as soul and body can? A reference to Heb. 4:12 does not establish the affirmative. Man’s material part can be separated from his immaterial part; but the immaterial part cannot be divided; it is not a duality of spirit and soul.
Click to expand...
Where, as here [in 1 Thess 5:23], spirit and soul are distinguished, the spirit designates our immaterial part as it is related to God, as being capable of receiving the operations of the Spirit of God and of his Word; while soul (psuche) designates this same immaterial part in its function of animating the body and also as receiving impressions from the body it animates. Death is described as the spirit’s leaving the body and as the soul’s leaving, for it is the sundering of the immaterial from the material (Lenski 1937:366-367).
Click to expand...
So, 1 Thess 5:23 supports the view of the material and immaterial of the holistic human being.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

As I indicated in the article,

the meaning is not to develop support for a trichotomous view of human beings but for a holistic view of people. Lenski explained:


So, 1 Thess 5:23 supports the view of the material and immaterial of the holistic human being.

Oz
Click to expand...
I agree, of course regarding 1 Thess 5:23

As to the dichotomy of man or trichotomy of man...
either one is correct.
As long as we understand man has
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT

If some want to combine the invisible SOUL and SPIRIT, that cannot be said to be wrong...some theologians teach this, as you've shown.

I like the trichotomy better because it helps me to understand how we function much better.

Also, can we say that EVERYONE has a spirit?
Does an unsaved person have a spirit?
Or do they have only BODY and SOUL?
 
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