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How do we discern what is legalism and what is allowed?

JohnDB said:
Now then...
as discussed above this exact thing is what keeps people from coming to saving knowledge of Christ. I know of many people who actually have a very healthy fear/respect for God and Jesus but do not believe that they can worship God because of "transgressions" (ongoing sins that they can't stop committing). They have no idea how to "get right enough" and stay "right enough" to being to worship God with a clean conscience and clean hands. They feel too dirty to even go to church much less offer a prayer to The Almighty.

So how to convince them that their condition is completely understood by God but that they still will have to give up their sins is the main struggle I have with most that I deal with.
I'm open to suggestions on this.
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head.....
They should be exposed to GRACE.
We should exhibit graciousness. Christians and individuals should be grateful for God's grace and it should be emphasized. It's an antithesis of legalism and condemnation.
 
JohnDB said:
Now then...
as discussed above this exact thing is what keeps people from coming to saving knowledge of Christ. I know of many people who actually have a very healthy fear/respect for God and Jesus but do not believe that they can worship God because of "transgressions" (ongoing sins that they can't stop committing). They have no idea how to "get right enough" and stay "right enough" to being to worship God with a clean conscience and clean hands. They feel too dirty to even go to church much less offer a prayer to The Almighty.

So how to convince them that their condition is completely understood by God but that they still will have to give up their sins is the main struggle I have with most that I deal with.
I'm open to suggestions on this.
Click to expand...
Hi John,
There are two ways of believing in how one comes to God.

1. I must become good and worthy, and THEN I'll go to God.

2. Come to God as you are, and you will become "good" and worthy.

The person that does not come to God because they don't feel worthy are TRULY those that believe in works to save. They should understand that God does not need them to do anything for Him...God is Almighty, just as they believe. They cannot do enough for Him to be saved.

What God wants for them to go to Him is their HEART.
Once they give their heart to God and stop trying to please Him...He WILL be happy with them.

And how is this done? By loving His Son Jesus...Just as any parent likes those who love their children. Learn about Jesus and learn how to be a disciple of His....how to follow Him.

Once that is done, then we are truly children of God and THEN what good works/deed we do we do out of love for God and they are counted to our merit/benefit.

We approach God through His Son.
We go to Him as we are and THEN He gives us a new heart.

You know all the verses....
I know catholics like this. It's almost as if they want to be saved...but they don't want to commit too much.

I don't know of any other way to explain it...
Maybe others do....
 
wondering said:
Hi John,
There are two ways of believing in how one comes to God.

1. I must become good and worthy, and THEN I'll go to God.

2. Come to God as you are, and you will become "good" and worthy.

The person that does not come to God because they don't feel worthy are TRULY those that believe in works to save. They should understand that God does not need them to do anything for Him...God is Almighty, just as they believe. They cannot do enough for Him to be saved.

What God wants for them to go to Him is their HEART.
Once they give their heart to God and stop trying to please Him...He WILL be happy with them.

And how is this done? By loving His Son Jesus...Just as any parent likes those who love their children. Learn about Jesus and learn how to be a disciple of His....how to follow Him.

Once that is done, then we are truly children of God and THEN what good works/deed we do we do out of love for God and they are counted to our merit/benefit.

We approach God through His Son.
We go to Him as we are and THEN He gives us a new heart.

You know all the verses....
I know catholics like this. It's almost as if they want to be saved...but they don't want to commit too much.

I don't know of any other way to explain it...
Maybe others do....
Click to expand...



Well,.. the reason that I came to Jesus is because I knew that I was unworthy without Him.
 
OzSpen said:
WIP,

Wouldn't John 3:18 (ESV) answer that question? "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God".

Oz
Click to expand...
Not exactly. My premise has been that all humankind is commanded to obedience by God. Those who disagree with my position are saying that God does not demand obedience of nonbelievers. I propose it is the lack of obedience that condemns them, ergo, unbelief.
 
WIP said:
Not exactly. My premise has been that all humankind is commanded to obedience by God. Those who disagree with my position are saying that God does not demand obedience of nonbelievers. I propose it is the lack of obedience that condemns them, ergo, unbelief.
Click to expand...

WIP,

Not so in my Bible: "and, 'A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.' They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for"' (1 Peter 2:8 NIV).

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
WIP,

Not so in my Bible: "and, 'A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.' They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for"' (1 Peter 2:8 NIV).

Oz
Click to expand...
Peter is speaking about nonbelievers who are disobedient, correct? Unbelievers can be judged disobedient.

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
1 Peter 2:4-8 NKJV

All mankind was created and required to be obedient to God's laws. Adam disobeyed and as a result we fell. People disobeyed and became corrupt. So much so that God judged the world and destroyed all life except for a select few that remained righteous. And what is righteousness, but obedience? The people in the land of Canaan were disobedient and corrupt and God used Israel to destroy them before taking over the land.
 
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WIP said:
Peter is speaking about nonbelievers who are disobedient, correct? Unbelievers can be judged disobedient.

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
1 Peter 2:4-8 NKJV

All mankind was created and required to be obedient to God's laws. Adam disobeyed and as a result we fell. People disobeyed and became corrupt. So much so that God judged the world and destroyed all life except for a select few that remained righteous. And what is righteousness, but obedience? The people in the land of Canaan were disobedient and corrupt and God used Israel to destroy them before taking over the land.
Click to expand...
So IOW,
my friend that obeys the 10 commandments (if that's even possible)
BUT DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD....

Will be with me in heaven?
 
wondering said:
So IOW,
my friend that obeys the 10 commandments (if that's even possible)
BUT DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD....

Will be with me in heaven?
Click to expand...
Is that what I said? Where did I say or imply that salvation comes through obedience alone? I never said that anywhere in this discussion. I did say that God requires obedience from all people. That is all I said.

I'll rephrase my position. God demands obedience from all, believer and unbeliever alike. Our obedience to the law does not save us but our disbelief does not release us from judgement of the law either.
 
Jesus came to fulfill the law once and for all as a means to reconciliation with God. He didn't come to give us the law or to take it away. It, the law, always was and remains today. For those that do not believe, they will be judged by the law. For believers who have accepted Jesus the law has been fulfilled and we have reconciliation with God. We are free from the condemnation of the law and saved.

Am I making sense?
 
WIP said:
Is that what I said? Where did I say or imply that salvation comes through obedience alone? I never said that anywhere in this discussion. I did say that God requires obedience from all people. That is all I said.

I'll rephrase my position. God demands obedience from all, believer and unbeliever alike. Our obedience to the law does not save us but our disbelief does not release us from judgement of the law either.
Click to expand...
Yes WIP...this is what you're saying!
I'm not the only one trying to tell you it's not like this.

Why should God demand obedience from all?
What good will it do them?
 
WIP said:
Jesus came to fulfill the law once and for all as a means to reconciliation with God. He didn't come to give us the law or to take it away. It, the law, always was and remains today. For those that do not believe, they will be judged by the law. For believers who have accepted Jesus the law has been fulfilled and we have reconciliation with God. We are free from the condemnation of the law and saved.

Am I making sense?
Click to expand...
Who are you asking?

Those that do not believe are LOST.
They will be judged by the fact that they do NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.
Their SPIRIT is not IN TUNE with God's Spirit....

The BELIEVERS will be judged by their obedience....
See Matthew 25
See John 15:1-6
See John 5:28-29

BELIEVERS ARE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.
NON-BELIEVERS ARE LOST,,,whether they obey or not is irrelevant.

(emphasis...I never scream at persons)
 
Bull of the Woods said:
The demons believe so obviously that alone doesn't get you anywhere either.
Not saying you proposed that it does. Just an observation.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
It's the TYPE of belief....

There's mental belief...
many believe there is a God but they do Not follow Him or respect Him.....

There's belief of the heart...
this is saving belief.

Jesus said to believe with our whole heart and mind and soul.
 
wondering said:
Who are you asking?

Those that do not believe are LOST.
They will be judged by the fact that they do NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.
Their SPIRIT is not IN TUNE with God's Spirit....

The BELIEVERS will be judged by their obedience....
See Matthew 25
See John 15:1-6
See John 5:28-29

BELIEVERS ARE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.
NON-BELIEVERS ARE LOST,,,whether they obey or not is irrelevant.

(emphasis...I never scream at persons)
Click to expand...
I agree that obedience is irrelevant to salvation but I propose that we are focused too much on salvation and not focused on the One that does the saving. We focus too much on the end goal rather than the means.

This becomes painfully evident in our churches today. Once someone recites the sinner's prayer that is dictated to them, they continue their lives as before. In their mind, they were saved so they're good to go.

I see it in our churches too with things like confirmation. The youth attend Bible study and Sunday services regularly until they are confirmed and then they vanish. In their mind they've done their duty and passed that milestone.

We do this in many things. Our legal system is a common one. Prosecution and defense focus on winning the trial for their clients and the truth is not a concern. In politics, lawmakers focus solely on winning their position. Whether what that is is beneficial to the majority or not is not a concern.

Is it our goal to get saved or to please the Creator of all and let the saving rest in Him?
 
WIP said:
I agree that obedience is irrelevant to salvation but I propose that we are focused too much on salvation and not focused on the One that does the saving. We focus too much on the end goal rather than the means.

This becomes painfully evident in our churches today. Once someone recites the sinner's prayer that is dictated to them, they continue their lives as before. In their mind, they were saved so they're good to go.

I see it in our churches too with things like confirmation. The youth attend Bible study and Sunday services regularly until they are confirmed and then they vanish. In their mind they've done their duty and passed that milestone.

We do this in many things. Our legal system is a common one. Prosecution and defense focus on winning the trial for their clients and the truth is not a concern. In politics, lawmakers focus solely on winning their position. Whether what that is is beneficial to the majority or not is not a concern.

Is it our goal to get saved or to please the Creator of all and let the saving rest in Him?
Click to expand...
WIP, I agree with everything you've said.
Having been a catechist for 6 years (recently) I have seen in first person everything you've stated.

My reply is to your last sentence...which is:

Is it our goal to get saved or to please the Creator of all and let the saving rest in Him?

I'd say that the goal is to "get saved". In quotation marks because
I agree with what you said about walking down an isle and believing we've accomplished something without seeing a change in our lives...

I mean....HOW can we please our creaator UNLESS we believe in Him first and THEN to please Him?

Do you agree with this?
Can a person that DOES NOT believe in God,,,,possibly be pleasing Him?
 
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