• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

How do we know that the Bible is the Word of God?

Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
318
Reaction score
0
How do you know that the Bible is the Word of God? :-?

I'm not challenging the assertion, just asking for opinions. :wink: I mean, the Bible claiming that it is the Word of God doesn't prove that it is. It's a circular argument. So why do you believe in the Bible as the Word of God? Please don't flame me :oops: I'm just wondering.
 
Laudate Dominum said:
How do you know that the Bible is the Word of God? :-? ....

Because the Church Christ established canonized it by its Christ-given authority.


By its Christ-given authority, the Catholic Church canonized the New Testament in the late 4th century. But Jesus founded His Church in the FIRST century, with Peter as the first pope. Here is a list of popes: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

So, the Bible is Church based: The Church is not Bible based. Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing.


Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

pope.jpg
 
I will offer this opinion. I am beginning to get the sense that there is a sophistication and inter-connectedness to the Scriptures that I suspect "we" have yet to discover. I think we take too much of an "atomistic" view - we dive in on certain snippets and yet ignore the bigger picture.

When I consider some of the arguments of the theologian NT Wright (I am a big fan of his, as some will no doubt have discovered, perhaps to their annoyance), it seems rather amazing how God, in fact, has kept His covenant promises. I know that I need to fill out this argument, but it seems that how God has kept His covenant is so "brilliant, yet unpredictable" that this stuff could not have been cooked up without divine inspiration.

To perhaps deploy a forced analogy, I suggest that there is almost an "irreducible complexity" to the Scriptural story. In other words, it seems impossible that all the themes and events would integrate so well together if the Scriptures were not the product of a single mind.

I also think there are some compelling connections between how the "physical world" seems to operate and certain scriptural teachings that suggest divine origin of the latter.
 
Drew said:
I will offer this opinion. I am beginning to get the sense that there is a sophistication and inter-connectedness to the Scriptures that I suspect "we" have yet to discover. I think we take too much of an "atomistic" view - we dive in on certain snippets and yet ignore the bigger picture.

When I consider some of the arguments of the theologian NT Wright (I am a big fan of his, as some will no doubt have discovered, perhaps to their annoyance), it seems rather amazing how God, in fact, has kept His covenant promises. I know that I need to fill out this argument, but it seems that how God has kept His covenant is so "brilliant, yet unpredictable" that this stuff could not have been cooked up without divine inspiration.

To perhaps deploy a forced analogy, I suggest that there is almost an "irreducible complexity" to the Scriptural story. In other words, it seems impossible that all the themes and events would integrate so well together if the Scriptures were not the product of a single mind.

I also think there are some compelling connections between how the "physical world" seems to operate and certain scriptural teachings that suggest divine origin of the latter.

In other words, it's too good to be an elaborate lie. Not bad, but it's circumstantial evidence.
 
How about this:

Educated 'guessing' is right about 10 percent of the time. Yet the prophecy offered within scripture is 100 percent. Not only INDICATING a 'divine' inspiration, but offering that it could ONLY BE accomplished THROUGH an 'all knowing source'.

As we SEE prophecy being COMPLETELY revealed, it becomes more and more apparent that it WAS divinely inspired.

PROOF that this 'man-made' book IS The Word of God. Without FAITH, it CAN'T be proven. For no matter what 'evidence' is offered, someone can STILL insist that it is merely circumstantial.

We live under a 'faith based' covenant. WITHOUT it, there IS no PROOF.

But then, no matter HOW much PROOF that you offer that there is NO SUCH THING as the Loch Ness Monster, or Big Foot, there will ALWAYS be those that BELIEVE they they DO exist. There will ALWAYS be that 'somebody' that will argue even with such irrefutable evidence as 1+1=2. It's the NATURE of man to DENY or 'argue' about that which would bring them 'attention'. So NO MATTER how much EVIDENCE exists within the scriptures, MANY will still deny or argue against it for the sake of 'rebelion'. That SAME spirit that was the 'cause' of Satan being 'cast out'. It IS the previlent 'spirit' on this planet and because of it, there will always be MANY that follow IT rather than truth.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
How about this:

Educated 'guessing' is right about 10 percent of the time. Yet the prophecy offered within scripture is 100 percent. Not only INDICATING a 'divine' inspiration, but offering that it could ONLY BE accomplished THROUGH an 'all knowing source'.

As we SEE prophecy being COMPLETELY revealed, it becomes more and more apparent that it WAS divinely inspired.

PROOF that this 'man-made' book IS The Word of God. Without FAITH, it CAN'T be proven. For no matter what 'evidence' is offered, someone can STILL insist that it is merely circumstantial.

We live under a 'faith based' covenant. WITHOUT it, there IS no PROOF.

But then, no matter HOW much PROOF that you offer that there is NO SUCH THING as the Loch Ness Monster, or Big Foot, there will ALWAYS be those that BELIEVE they they DO exist. There will ALWAYS be that 'somebody' that will argue even with such irrefutable evidence as 1+1=2. It's the NATURE of man to DENY or 'argue' about that which would bring them 'attention'. So NO MATTER how much EVIDENCE exists within the scriptures, MANY will still deny or argue against it for the sake of 'rebelion'. That SAME spirit that was the 'cause' of Satan being 'cast out'. It IS the previlent 'spirit' on this planet and because of it, there will always be MANY that follow IT rather than truth.

MEC

In other words, the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so - the type of explanation only the worst theologian would offer
 
As a Catholic, of course I agree with CC to a certain a degree. Yes, the Catholic Church presided over the Scriptures and they were compiled according to her authority, but by no means would I stop there.

Drew's post was very interesting in this regard:

Drew wrote:
I will offer this opinion. I am beginning to get the sense that there is a sophistication and inter-connectedness to the Scriptures that I suspect "we" have yet to discover. I think we take too much of an "atomistic" view - we dive in on certain snippets and yet ignore the bigger picture.

When I consider some of the arguments of the theologian NT Wright (I am a big fan of his, as some will no doubt have discovered, perhaps to their annoyance), it seems rather amazing how God, in fact, has kept His covenant promises. I know that I need to fill out this argument, but it seems that how God has kept His covenant is so "brilliant, yet unpredictable" that this stuff could not have been cooked up without divine inspiration.

To perhaps deploy a forced analogy, I suggest that there is almost an "irreducible complexity" to the Scriptural story. In other words, it seems impossible that all the themes and events would integrate so well together if the Scriptures were not the product of a single mind.

I also think there are some compelling connections between how the "physical world" seems to operate and certain scriptural teachings that suggest divine origin of the latter.

Quite simply, it is the subliminity of the "salvation drama" which convinces me, recorded in Scripture and expounded by the Church, which together convince me of the inspiration of them both. I do not simply look to the Church and then to the Scriptures, but I think I look to them both at the same time, see them as mutual witnesses to one another.

I think it might well be the cohesiveness of the Christian religion as a whole. Typology is particularly fascinating, because we see a steady process from Abraham to Christ where God gradually draws humanity to himself, culminating in his very becoming as a human being. Through typology, it is evident that Christ was there all along; the ram in the bushes on Moriah, the Passover Feast, the Temple Cult: Sacred History is really the anticipation and then fulfimment of the Incarnation. As Drew pointed out, it fits too well.

In short, the "salvation drama" witnessed by the Living Church and the Living Word is a continuous and historical dialectic between God and man of which we can see a continual progression in intimacy between man corporately (man is one Adam, therefore one in Abraham, one in Israel, finally one in Christ, one in His Body the Church) and God. Gradually we draw nearer to one another, God to man, God always initiating, until God is in man and man is in God, until there is an exchange of natures. God becomes man and offers man a share in His Self.

Now I accept the above to be true for various personal reasons and reasons beyond my own self. Obviously, without the living testimony of the Church, the Liturgy, the Magesterium, the dogmas, the Scriptures, the common Christian at the soup kitchen, Salvation History would not be known, and therefore, never presented to me to accept or refuse.
 
Well, apart from the convincing evidence on the intellectual level that has already been pointed out, I would say we know it is the Word of God simply because the Holy Spirit indwells within us and has pointed this out to us.
 
Veritas said:
Well, apart from the convincing evidence on the intellectual level that has already been pointed out, I would say we know it is the Word of God simply because the Holy Spirit indwells within us and has pointed this out to us.

And how can you know that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? The BIble tells you so? That, my friend, is a circular argument.

The Bible, it has been said, fits together too well to be a work of fiction. So does a Sherlock Holmes story. :wink:
 
Laudate Dominum said:
And how can you know that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? The BIble tells you so? That, my friend, is a circular argument.

I believe that Acts 5 and 1 John (among other places) tell us we know that the Spirit abides in us when we obey Christ's commandments. This makes sense, because we can do nothing good without Christ in us - so if we are obeying the commandments out of love of God and others, it is a sure sign of the Spirit within us...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Laudate Dominum said:
And how can you know that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? The BIble tells you so? That, my friend, is a circular argument.

I believe that Acts 5 and 1 John (among other places) tell us we know that the Spirit abides in us when we obey Christ's commandments. This makes sense, because we can do nothing good without Christ in us - so if we are obeying the commandments out of love of God and others, it is a sure sign of the Spirit within us...

Regards

In your opinion, the whole story makes too much sense to be fiction (in as much as we are told to apply it to our own lives)?

But to say that we can know that the Bible is true because the Spirit tells us that it is, and claim that the Spirit is within you because of what the Bible says, is circular.
 
Laudate Dominum said:
And how can you know that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? The BIble tells you so? That, my friend, is a circular argument.

It's not the argument I'm using.. I know because the Holy Spirit dwells within me and thats it. I would think that's ultimately true for every Christian including you
 
Veritas said:
Laudate Dominum said:
And how can you know that the Holy Spirit dwells within you? The BIble tells you so? That, my friend, is a circular argument.

It's not the argument I'm using.. I know because the Holy Spirit dwells within me and thats it.

How do you know that there IS a Spirit? How do you know that the Spirit, IF It exists, is within you?
 
oops... I guess I didn't get that edit off quite in time. But I'll expand... Yes the Spirit comes to us through His Word and His people but I don't believe He is limited to that.... baptism is one example of another way. Anyways, I'll say again we Christians know the Spirit is within us simply because He is there.
 
Laudate Dominum said:
In your opinion, the whole story makes too much sense to be fiction (in as much as we are told to apply it to our own lives)?

But to say that we can know that the Bible is true because the Spirit tells us that it is, and claim that the Spirit is within you because of what the Bible says, is circular.

In my opinion, the Bible is true because the Church has given us a reliable witness that we believe - that the Bible is God's Word. Also, the writings of the Apostles give historical testimony to the Christian community and their beliefs. Of course, we have extra-biblical witnesses as well.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
In my opinion, the Bible is true because the Church has given us a reliable witness that we believe - that the Bible is God's Word. Also, the writings of the Apostles give historical testimony to the Christian community and their beliefs. Of course, we have extra-biblical witnesses as well.

And I'd have to say that this is a great way to approach "natural man" with answers for our faith. But wouldn't you agree that without the Holy Spirit even all of that wouldn't convince us?
 
Veritas said:
oops... I guess I didn't get that edit off quite in time. But I'll expand... Yes the Spirit comes to us through His Word and His people but I don't believe He is limited to that.... baptism is one example of another way. Anyways, I'll say again we Christians know the Spirit is within us simply because He is there.

You're not quite answering my question here. How do you know that it is the Spirit? How do you know you're not just going crazy? How do you know that there is a Spirit?

You just "feel" it? That's sort of subjective :wink:
 
Laudate Dominum said:
Veritas said:
oops... I guess I didn't get that edit off quite in time. But I'll expand... Yes the Spirit comes to us through His Word and His people but I don't believe He is limited to that.... baptism is one example of another way. Anyways, I'll say again we Christians know the Spirit is within us simply because He is there.

You're not quite answering my question here. How do you know that it is the Spirit? How do you know you're not just going crazy? How do you know that there is a Spirit?

You just "feel" it? That's sort of subjective :wink:

This is one of the toughest miracles to explain or describe. In fact I believe it's impossible to do so.
How does one know God exists? How do you prove He does exist to a non-believer?
Impossible to explain but impossible to ignore.
 
Laudate Dominum said:
You're not quite answering my question here. How do you know that it is the Spirit? How do you know you're not just going crazy? How do you know that there is a Spirit?

You just "feel" it? That's sort of subjective

It's not that I just "feel" it...It is more than that. I know Him in my heart, mind, and soul. I'm sure you do too. I HOPE I'm not going crazy... and I think I have a certain hope within me.

We, as human beings are limited to figuring things in the "subjective" realm. I of course affirm and believe in objective truth, but any person's knowledge will be subjective to themselves.
 
Veritas said:
francisdesales said:
In my opinion, the Bible is true because the Church has given us a reliable witness that we believe - that the Bible is God's Word. Also, the writings of the Apostles give historical testimony to the Christian community and their beliefs. Of course, we have extra-biblical witnesses as well.

And I'd have to say that this is a great way to approach "natural man" with answers for our faith. But wouldn't you agree that without the Holy Spirit even all of that wouldn't convince us?

It may convince us intellectually, but not in the heart where transformation takes place. I know this from personal experience. I read and read for months, convinced in time that the Church was as she said. However, it didn't move me, of itself, to love from the heart. I felt that and knew it. So I began to pray the prayer of begging for more faith - and my prayers were answered. At that point, I began to really begin to throw off the arrogant and proud self. (most of it, anyway!)

Regards
 
Back
Top