How Do We Know The Bible Is Inspired ?

[JamesG]

.
John

What is that verse?

JamesG

 

[John]

.
John

What is that verse?

JamesG

Romans 13:1 - There is no authority except that which God has established.

 

[JamesG]

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Francisdesales

And neither is your answer very convincing to the Agnostic, nor to the Atheist for that matter.

We've already been through this.

For those who have not read our comments on the one on one, it is a question of whether or not we understand the Bible in a natural way as do the Catholics and most Protestants or we understand the Bible as it is currently being revealed by a God that is continuously contemporary. The latter can only be possible in the human spirit as it is connected to the Spirit of God. And the human spirit is connected to the mind of the one who is truly in Christ. What we know from God comes from God through the Spirit of God to the human spirit to the human mind. The natural way comes from history and/or denominational thinking into the mind of man. There is no need for the human spirit in the natural way. There is only the need for the natural mind. And some who follow the natural mind become Atheists and Agnostics.

God reveals from within through the human spirit. Christianity, which includes the Catholic denomination and the Protestant denominations, reveals from without directly to the human mind. The latter is nothing more than human religion and the Catholics are right to say that all human religions are the same in so far as they agree with Catholic teaching. And they can legitimately say that because religions are not from God, but from man. And it is that which makes the discussion between religions a matter of intellectual discussion.

And Francis, I am not going to get into a discussion of the matter here again. We do not agree on this matter, and that pretty much says it all as far as I am concerned.

However, you did not answer my latest question on the one on one. It is no longer a matter of discussion. I am merely asking questions in order to understand you better. If you think that is not a worthwhile endeavor, please say so.

JamesG

 

[JamesG]

.
John

That one used to bother me too. But when one understands the context of a fallen world, then it becomes clearer how a Nero or a Hitler can become such a power. And since we do not understand the nuances of everything that is taking place, while God does, again it becomes not so much a problem as a reason to praise the Lord. We do not know but things could be a lot worse than what we can see from our limited vantage point. The times of Nero and Hitler ended rather abruptly. Even Chinese Communism is changing into something more palatable to Western eyes.

JamesG

 

[francisdesales]

.

For those who have not read our comments on the one on one, it is a question of whether or not we understand the Bible in a natural way as do the Catholics and most Protestants or we understand the Bible as it is currently being revealed by a God that is continuously contemporary.

During conversion, indeed, the natural way is not adverse to seeking out God, nor does the human way become ineffective once the Spirit fills us with knowledge gradually (which I am not convinced includes the canon of Scriptures given to each individual apart from the Church). In other words, there is no reason to oppose the work of the Spirit in the believer with history or Biblical exegesis or other human-based studies to understand God, at least in part. "Humanistic studies" help us to know God, although it naturally will be inferior to the Spirit.

My purpose, as I have said before, is not to convince you, but to provide another point of view for others, thus, if you don't mind, I will continue to post where I disagree - even though, "we have already been through this". I have not admitted to you the correctness of your position, nor are you our spokesman, so I will continue to make my points.

I'll have to look at the Debate section, it seems that conversation there has slowed.

 

[Elvispelvis]

Please stick to my subject continue your discussion some where else. Thank you.
Sin cerley Craig

 

[logical bob]

Of course the Bible is continuously contemporary - any great book is.

Years ago I went through a difficult time and the book that helped me through it was Kafka's The Trial. I learnt lessons from that book that still guide my life today. I don't for a moment think that I somehow gained access to the mind of Kafka back in the days of World War I. My experience of his book was shaped by me and my situation. Everyone else who's been moved by it will have had a slightly different experience. People aren't touched by books but by their experience of books, so it doesn't make much sense to look for the one correct meaning or interpretation of a book.

Dozens of new productions of Shakespeare are put on every year. They aren't about trying to find the one true meaning of Shakespeare, they're fresh encounters with Shakespeare.

The best books are ones that touch people in different times and places. They don't become dated. I'd go further and say that they can only do this if they lack a single correct meaning - great books are open to interpretation and are to a certain extent ambiguous.

The Bible is certainly a great book - just look at the endless fascination it causes. The hundreds of differen interpretations down the centuries show how ambiguous it is. It's missing the point to look for the one single correct interpretation. In their own way, they're all correct.

Please stick to my subject continue your discussion some where else. Thank you.
Sin cerley Craig

We've debunked Panin from several different directions so let's talk about something interesting instead. You've got no answers to the criticisms various posters have made so it seems your subject's done.

 

[Elvispelvis]

Theophilus said ;


Textus Receptus (Stephens 1550)
Words: 444 (Not evenly divisible by 7)
Letters: 2719 (Not evenly divisible by 7)

Textus Receptus (Elzevir 1624)
Words: 444 (Not evenly divisible by 7)
Letters: 2744 (7*392)

Westcott-Hort
Words: 436 (Not evenly divisible by 7)
Letters: 2690 (Not evenly divisible by 7)

Do you understand what GAMETRIA is ?

Do you understand the Bible was written in Hebrew not English ?

Do you know that English has no numerical values ?
Did you know that GAMETRIA does not work in English?

Do you know how to convert from letters to numbers ?
Do you know how to convert into Hebrew ?

Did you know that the words have to come from the bible or they wont work because they are not inspired?
Why did you use non inspired words and then say they do not fit? This shows you do not understand GAMETRIA in any way!

Why dont you take Genesis chapter one to prove your point, you have to show where Dr Panin cheated ?
Basically your argument is Dr Panin is a cheat!

Dr Panin worked for fifty years producing 60,000 pages of numbers, not for money he did not get paid.

Theo to answer me properly take Genesis and show me where Dr Panin is lying in Hebrew of course.



There are even more features in the numerical structure of the words themselves. As you may know, both the Hebrew and Greek use the letters of the alphabet for numerical values. Therefore, any specific word in either Hebrew or Greek- has a numerical value of its own by adding up the values of the letters in that particular word. The study of the numerical values of words is called gametria.

The 72 vocabulary words add up to a gametrical value of 42,364, or 7 x 6,052.
The 72 words appear in 90 forms-some appear in more than one form. The numeric value of the 90 forms is 54,075, or 7 x 7,725. Exactly.

It becomes immediately obvious that hidden below the surface are aspects of design that cannot be accidental or just coincidence.
Other Implications

There are words in the passage just described that occur nowhere else in the New Testament. They occur 42 times (7 x 6) and have 126 letters (7 x 18). How was this organized?

Even if Matthew contrived this characteristic into his Gospel, how could he have known that these specific words-whose sole characteristic is that they are found nowhere else in the New Testament-were not going to be used by the other writers? Unless we assume the absurd hypothesis that he had an agreement with them, he must have had the rest of the New Testament before him when he wrote his book. The Gospel of Matthew, then, must have been written last.

It so happens the Gospel of Mark exhibits the same phenomenon. It can be demonstrated that it would have had to be written "last." The same phenomenon is found in Luke, John, Peter, Jude, and Paul. Each would have had to write after the other in order to contrive the vocabulary frequencies! You can demonstrate that each of the New Testament books had to have been "written last."

There is no human explanation for this incredible and precise structure. It has all been supernaturally designed. We simply gasp, sit back, and behold the skillful handiwork of the God who keeps his promises.

By the way, the crucifixion of Jesus took place at Golgotha, elevation = 777 meters above sea level. What a coincidence.

Sin cerley Craig

 

[Elvispelvis]

Logical bob said;

We've debunked Panin from several different directions so let's talk about something interesting instead. You've got no answers to the criticisms various posters have made so it seems your subject's done.

Craig :
Not one poster quoted Genesis in Hebrew or numbers or disproved "GAMETRIA". AT WHAT POINT SHOULD I ANSWER THAT YOU CALL DR PANIN A LIAR AND A CHEAT.
In what way does that disprove GAMETRIA ?

You think by calling Dr Panin a cheat and a liar I should have to answer such childish arguments .
Since anyone lacks the ability to answer or not answer is not the reason I post.

Sorry LB if I bore you but I am still waiting for a logical answer.

I will try again to get a simple answer from you !

Why are there seven days in a week ?
Why does the moon go around the Earth divided by seven ?
Why are there seven notes in music ?
Why are there only seven colors?
Can you answer without avoiding the questions?

Still Waitng Craig
.

 

[Sinthesis]

By the way, the crucifixion of Jesus took place at Golgotha, elevation = 777 meters above sea level. What a coincidence.[/b]

Sin cerley Craig

Says who? What is that in feet, yards, cubits, furlongs, fathoms?

You don't need manufactured coincidence to support the Word of God. In fact, it is dangerous to a weak faith once the false evidence is exposed as a fraud.

• Mat 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
  Mat 24:25 - Behold, I have told you before.
  Mat 24:26 - Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
  
  Mat 16:4 - A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

 

[logical bob]

Sorry LB if I bore you but I am still waiting for a logical answer.

Well, I did explain the mathematical error that underpins Panin's work and show you why any piece of writing will satisfy your "rule of 7." You didn't respond but you can now if you like. Here's a link to the post in case you missed it.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=49791&p=602599#p602599

I will try again to get a simple answer from you !

Why are there seven days in a week ?

The Babylonians were the first to use a seven day week. They divided the lunar month into four parts. The Jews picked up the system during the Exile. We get the system from the Romans, who adopted it in the first century AD. This was probably independent of the Jews/Babylonians.

The number of days in a week is arbitary. Before changing, the Romans used an 8 day week and the Ancient Egyptians used 10. During the French revolution a 10 day week was introduced and the Soviet Union experimented with 5 and 6 day weeks.

Why does the moon go around the Earth divided by seven ?

Coincidence, though as I mentioned above it does explain how the Jews came to have 7 days in a week. Do you think it's significant that the number of days it takes the earth to orbit the sun doesn't divide by 7?

Why are there seven notes in music ?

The 7 note scale is a particular feature of Western music. Different cultures use different scales. It's arbitary.

Why are there only seven colors?

The monitor I'm reading your post on says it can reproduce 16.7 million colours. I'm starting to think you must be having a laugh.

Can you answer without avoiding the questions?

Direct enough for you?

 

[Theofilus]

Theophilus said ;


Textus Receptus (Stephens 1550)
Words: 444 (Not evenly divisible by 7)
Letters: 2719 (Not evenly divisible by 7)

Textus Receptus (Elzevir 1624)
Words: 444 (Not evenly divisible by 7)
Letters: 2744 (7*392)

Westcott-Hort
Words: 436 (Not evenly divisible by 7)
Letters: 2690 (Not evenly divisible by 7)

Do you understand what GAMETRIA is ?

Do you understand the Bible was written in Hebrew not English ?

Do you know that English has no numerical values ?
Did you know that GAMETRIA does not work in English?

Do you know how to convert from letters to numbers ?
Do you know how to convert into Hebrew ?

Did you know that the words have to come from the bible or they wont work because they are not inspired?
Why did you use non inspired words and then say they do not fit? This shows you do not understand GAMETRIA in any way!

Why dont you take Genesis chapter one to prove your point, you have to show where Dr Panin cheated ?
Basically your argument is Dr Panin is a cheat!

Dr Panin worked for fifty years producing 60,000 pages of numbers, not for money he did not get paid.

Theo to answer me properly take Genesis and show me where Dr Panin is lying in Hebrew of course.



There are even more features in the numerical structure of the words themselves. As you may know, both the Hebrew and Greek use the letters of the alphabet for numerical values. Therefore, any specific word in either Hebrew or Greek- has a numerical value of its own by adding up the values of the letters in that particular word. The study of the numerical values of words is called gametria.

The 72 vocabulary words add up to a gametrical value of 42,364, or 7 x 6,052.
The 72 words appear in 90 forms-some appear in more than one form. The numeric value of the 90 forms is 54,075, or 7 x 7,725. Exactly.

It becomes immediately obvious that hidden below the surface are aspects of design that cannot be accidental or just coincidence.
Other Implications

There are words in the passage just described that occur nowhere else in the New Testament. They occur 42 times (7 x 6) and have 126 letters (7 x 18). How was this organized?

Even if Matthew contrived this characteristic into his Gospel, how could he have known that these specific words-whose sole characteristic is that they are found nowhere else in the New Testament-were not going to be used by the other writers? Unless we assume the absurd hypothesis that he had an agreement with them, he must have had the rest of the New Testament before him when he wrote his book. The Gospel of Matthew, then, must have been written last.

It so happens the Gospel of Mark exhibits the same phenomenon. It can be demonstrated that it would have had to be written "last." The same phenomenon is found in Luke, John, Peter, Jude, and Paul. Each would have had to write after the other in order to contrive the vocabulary frequencies! You can demonstrate that each of the New Testament books had to have been "written last."

There is no human explanation for this incredible and precise structure. It has all been supernaturally designed. We simply gasp, sit back, and behold the skillful handiwork of the God who keeps his promises.

By the way, the crucifixion of Jesus took place at Golgotha, elevation = 777 meters above sea level. What a coincidence.

Sin cerley Craig

Why should I check out Genesis when you specifically mentioned Matthew? You claimed that both the number of words and the number of letters in the first chapter of Matthew were evenly divisible by 7. When I asked you, you said that Panin had used the Textus Receptus (Received Text) and Westcott-Hort in his calculations. I showed that that was wrong. The number of words is not divisible by 7. Panin lied. He knows that most of his listeners don't know anything about Greek or Hebrew, so he can say pretty much anything he wants, and they won't be able to refute it.

I do know what gematria is. It's a form of Jewish mysticism based on adding the numerical values of the letters of a word and deriving meaning from the result. But did you know that the chapters we have in our Bibles today were only addedd about 800 years ago? Why would the content of chapters divisions that were addedd in 1205 be significant in proving anything?

I believe that the Bible is inspired, but there are better ways of proving it. The Bible's record on accurately predicting the future seems very good evidence to me that it is of more than mere human authorship.

 

[francisdesales]

Logical bob said;

We've debunked Panin from several different directions so let's talk about something interesting instead. You've got no answers to the criticisms various posters have made so it seems your subject's done.

Craig :
Not one poster quoted Genesis in Hebrew or numbers or disproved "GAMETRIA". AT WHAT POINT SHOULD I ANSWER THAT YOU CALL DR PANIN A LIAR AND A CHEAT.
In what way does that disprove GAMETRIA ?

You think by calling Dr Panin a cheat and a liar I should have to answer such childish arguments .
Since anyone lacks the ability to answer or not answer is not the reason I post.

Sorry LB if I bore you but I am still waiting for a logical answer.

I will try again to get a simple answer from you !

Why are there seven days in a week ?
Why does the moon go around the Earth divided by seven ?
Why are there seven notes in music ?
Why are there only seven colors?
Can you answer without avoiding the questions?

Still Waitng Craig
.

I agree with Sinthesis, this is dangerous ground to base your faith upon, because it doesn't prove much of anything, and furthermore, the idea of "7" everywhere is plainly misconstrued. The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint often do not match the Masoretic text. Plainly, there are several "versions" of the OT, if we are looking at counting precise letters. The text uses synonymous words, but they throw the "number count" off.

In addition, the Masoretic text is based upon an oral tradition of memorizing where the vowels go, it was written down quite a bit latter than the written Latin and Greek versions of the OT.

This just isn't convincing enough for me, for the variety of reasons I have already stated.

Regards

 

[logical bob]

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint often do not match the Masoretic text.

We should go with the Septuagint. Surely it can't be coincidence that 70 is a multiple of 7!

 

[dadof10]

.
Yet whatever the proof used, they are determined by means of human interpretation. If the interpretations are correct, then the Bible is proven to be inspired. Because of their interpretations of the inspired Bible. And for the circular reasoning fans out there, that is pretty much circular reasoning. And so also is the Catholic way wherein the Apostles began the Church that compiled the Bible that is the source of the Apostles teaching that started the Church. But I am probably the only one that will agree that a logical fallacy is being employed here.

Accurate historical records point to a Man who claimed to be God---->
That Man validated His claim by rising from the dead--->
Once risen, the historical record says He sent His Spirit upon His "Church", which He promised to "guide to all Truth"--->
That HISTORICAL Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, recognized the books that are inspired by God...The End

That is linear thinking, not circular reasoning.

 

[francisdesales]

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint often do not match the Masoretic text.

We should go with the Septuagint. Surely it can't be coincidence that 70 is a multiple of 7!

Ouch...

 

[Theofilus]

Why are there seven days in a week ?

This is totally irrelevent to the question you asked. The fact that the Bible says there are 7 days and that there are today 7 days in a week doesn't prove that the Bible is inspired, only that we have the same number of days in our week as they did in theirs.

Why does the moon go around the Earth divided by seven ?

Check your math. The moon takes about 29.53 days to orbit the earth.

Why are there seven notes in music ?

That's a human invention and has nothing to do with the inspiration of the Bible.

Why are there only seven colors?

[/quote]
There are different sets of "primary colors", depending on what you're doing. On the monitor you're now looking at, the primary colors are red, green and blue, the colors red, yellow and blue are often used in art and when mixing paint, and the colors your printer most likely uses are cyan, magenta, yellow and black. Put them all together and you get:

1. Magenta[/*:m:mb5lrqfz]
2. Red[/*:m:mb5lrqfz]
3. Yellow[/*:m:mb5lrqfz]
4. Green [/*:m:mb5lrqfz]
5. Cyan[/*:m:mb5lrqfz]
6. Blue[/*:m:mb5lrqfz]
7. Black[/*:m:mb5lrqfz]

Looks like a total of 7 colors, doesn't it. Well, it's not. Magenta, yellow and cyan are what are called "subractive primaries". If you put red, green and blue light together, you get white. If you take the blue away from white, you're left with yellow, if you take the green away, you're left with magenta and if you take the red away, you have cyan. So, while they may be used in printing or art, magenta, cyan and yellow are not true primary colors in nature. Besides that, black is not a color at all, but rather the lack of color. There are, therefore only 3 true primary colors - red, green and blue. Even if you count the others, it still doesn't have anything to do with the inspiration of the Bible.

 

[bleeverhal]

We know the bible is inspired by reading and hearing its truth, in conjunction with the work of the Holy Spirit; we can't prove it mathematically, logically or by any of man's reasoning. It is called faith.

 

[Elvispelvis]

Why are thre seven colors?
Because God said so in the Bible thats why !
We know God made the rainbow as a covenant not to destoy the Earth with water again
.Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

The seven colors of the rainbow play a major role in lighting the Throne. Each color is explained in detail in the old testament because each color means something important!

A rainbow is an optical and meteorological phenomenon that causes a spectrum of light to appear in the sky when the Sun shines onto droplets of moisture in the Earth's atmosphere. They take the form of a multicoloured arc, with red on the outer part of the arc and violet on the inner section of the arc.

A rainbow spans a continuous spectrum of colours; the distinct bands are an artifact of human colour vision. The most commonly cited and remembered sequence, in English, is Newton's sevenfold red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet (popularly memorized by mnemonics like Roy G. Biv). Rainbows can be caused by other forms of water than rain, including mist, spray, and dew.

bleeveral said'
Elvispelvis wrote:Why are there only seven colors?

[/quote]
There are different sets of "primary colors", depending on what you're doing. On the monitor you're now looking at, the primary colors are red, green and blue, the colors red, yellow and blue are often used in art and when mixing paint, and the colors your printer most likely uses are cyan, magenta, yellow and black. Put them all together and you get:

1. Magenta
2. Red
3. Yellow
4. Green
5. Cyan
6. Blue
7. Black
Craig said:
Sir Isaac Newton established his colors from the rainbow given by God. You invent some color list
and say it does not fit.
Why would you make up your own list?

Elvispelvis wrote:Why are there seven notes in music ?
theofilus Said

That's a human invention and has nothing to do with the inspiration of the Bible.

Craig said ;

I dont think you are a musician , at least your education is lacking in music.

I thought everyone understands where DO RA ME FA SO LA TE the scale of music comes from.

So let me try to explain nature to you my friend.

Man has no control over nature. The sounds that come from nature are not man made or invented
by man .
Physics of sound

Sound is vibration transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas; particularly, sound means those vibrations composed of frequencies capable of being detected by ears. For humans, hearing is limited to frequencies between about 20 Hz and 20,000 Hz (20 kHz), with the upper limit generally decreasing with age. Other species have a different range of hearing. For example, some dog breeds can perceive vibrations up to 60,000 Hz.[5] As a signal perceived by one of the major senses, sound is used by many species for detecting danger, navigation, predation, and communication.

The mechanical vibrations that can be interpreted as sound are able to travel through all forms of matter: gases, liquids, solids, and plasmas. The matter that supports the sound is called the medium. Sound cannot travel through vacuum.

Musical notes have a frequency that is always the same. It can not be changed by man how foolish.

Frequency is the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time. It is also referred to as temporal frequency. The period is the duration of one cycle in a repeating event, so the period is the
reciprocal of the frequency.

Acoustic scale
In music , the acoustic scale is a seven note scale which, starting on C, contains the notes: C, D, E, F sharp, G, A and B flat.

These are excepted standards of the scientific community worldwide.

Musical notes come from nature.

HOW FANTASTIC IS THE WORD OF GOD !

The old testament is full of future events, prophecy.
Please study the old testament.

 

[logical bob]

I'm calling Poe. This guy can't possibly be for real... can he?