How do you know how many good works...

[Heidi]

For those of you who think we are saved by works instead of grace, how many good works do we have to do? How do you know when your salvation is gone? :o What happens if you miss one day at church or neglect to help your neighbor every time he needs it, or curse just once, or don't give all of your money away, or just once covet your neighbor's car, and on and on? What's the magic number when we lost our salvation? Where does the NT tell us this? :o How is this coming to Jesus for rest? Where's the rest in it? :o

James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles just once one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

So sorry, friends, those of you who think that salvation is by works are up a creek without a paddle because you will always break the law even once everyday. Only Christ's death can save you and if you don't come to him for salvation, then you have no other way in.

"It is finished." Even Paul tells us that those whose works are not as good as others will still be saved but only as one barely "escaping the flames."

 

[Heidi]

Works that come from fear of losing one's salvation are works done to get something from God. But works that come out of thankfulness that we are saved are works that come from love for God. And as Paul says, works without love are meaningless.

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's own desire or effort, but on God's mercy." People either believe that or they don't.

So those of who you are trying to get your salvation through works aren't acting out of love for God but fear for yourselves. This isn't love, but selfishness. But those of us who are secure in our salvation would like nothing better than to thank God every single day for what he has done for us. I literally owe God my life for this beautiful gift. He owes me nothing. And if there were strings attached to his love, then it wouldn't be a gift, it would be praising me for my wonderful nature, not praising God for his mercy.

 

[ChristineES]

We are saved by grace. We, as Christians, know this. We are not saved by good works. We do them, however, because the Holy Spirit leads us to.
I certainly agree with you when you say that good works that come from fear of losing our salvation are meaningless. I was always taught and I believe that people do good works because they want to, because they are thankful that God has saved them!
I thank God everyday that I am saved. I certainly never deserved it. I don't think any person could do enough good works to pay for what has been given them.
I feel sorry for any person who believes that he/she has to do works to get into Heaven.
I worship God and I do good things because I want to, not because I have to.
Love in Christ

 

[gingercat]

For those of you who think we are saved by works instead of grace,

quote


Heidi,

Everyone knows we are not saved by good works. when are you going to learn? how long have you being Christian?

Stop attacking people who are trying to be obedient to His teachings. You are disgracing His name and teachings.

Jesus says plainly that if you love Me keep My commandments.

Don't make lame old excuses. It is getting old.

 

[gingercat]

I feel sorry for any person who believes that he/she has to do works to get into Heaven.

end of quote

Christine, I repeat the same thing to you as above.

 

[ChristineES]

Nobody is attacking anyone. Heidi did not attack anyone and neither did I. You should not take what everyone says personally, I was not talking about you at all! Why do you think we are attacking you? I told you before I respect your beliefs and would not dismiss them although at this point I do not agree with them. We agree on a more important reality, that Jesus died for us! That He suffered greatly for us!! That is more important than a difference of opinion! I would never attack anyone, never. I love God and I love the people who follow Him. I love those who have never found Him. I pray for those who are against Christ because the Bible tells me to Love My Enemies. You are not my enemy, however, you are my sibling in Christ. I am not perfect, I am not always right, but God's love and Jesus sacrifice give me acceptance and all others, as well. I will pray for you.

 

[gingercat]

But you are belittling Christians who are doing good works assuming they are trying to earn salvation by works. what else do you have in mind when you are saying you feel sorry for them? Stop mocking God. When you are belittling good deeds of other believers you are mocking God, because good deeds are good witnesses for Him. This is the utmost form of obedience.

Believers first mission is to be a good witnesses for Him. Good witnesses are good works.

Why do you fight against good deeds so hard? No one is saying we can earn savation by works. period. Stop twisting around peoples' good deeds.

Instead of feeling sorry for good witnesses, praise the Lord for them.

I hope you start following Him wholeheartedly. You don't seem like you know His main purpose from your comments.

 

[ChristineES]

This is my last post to you. I will not respond to you any longer. I never said you should not do good works, nor was I saying that people only do good works for salvation,in fact no one on this board did, as far as I can tell. I don't belittle God, and no Christian would. You don't know me, my life or as far as I can tell anyone on this board. You don't seem to understand what anyone is saying to you. I wish you only the best and God Bless You. God loves you.
Christine

 

[gingercat]

You don't know me,
.

quote


I can tell your from your comments. You have been commenting the same kind of church lingo. I can tell that you are not breaking the mentality of typical christianity.

 

[thessalonian]

For those of you who think we are saved by works instead of grace, how many good works do we have to do?

Who are you reffering to Heidi. I don't know of anyone one this board who says that we are to do works instead of grace.

Eph 3
20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

I think it it unbiblical to separate the works we do in faith from the grace we recieve as new creations, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That seems like what you are doing but I don't want to misrepresent you as bad as you seem to be misrepresenting others. There is no question that we must strive to do good and avoid evil in this life and that is a part of the equation.

4: Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5: But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6: For he will render to every man according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Also see Matt 25, the sheep and the goats among many other verses.

Don't twist this in to me thinking that we work our way to heaven on our own power.

Blessings

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

yeah. its really not either/or. its more of a both/and.

 

[Heidi]

For those of you who think we are saved by works instead of grace,

quote


Heidi,

Everyone knows we are not saved by good works. when are you going to learn? how long have you being Christian?

Stop attacking people who are trying to be obedient to His teachings. You are disgracing His name and teachings.

Jesus says plainly that if you love Me keep My commandments.

Don't make lame old excuses. It is getting old.

So if we're saved by grace, then why do so many people on this board think we can lose our salvation? :o The OSAS is one of the longest and continual threads on this board because so many people think that works save. And why do you attack me for believing we are saved by grace? That is what is getting old.

 

[gingercat]

So if we're saved by grace, then why do so many people on this board think we can lose our salvation? The OSAS is one of the longest and continual threads on this board because so many people think that works save. And why do you attack me for believing we are saved by grace? That is what is getting old.

If being saved by grace means OSAS, why isn't everyone saved?

If everyone isn't saved, there must be some condition (and they aren't works).

When this condition is met, that is when we have accepted grace: if we have accepted the condition (repentance, forsaking of sin and devotion of life to God's service), then we are saved and will do works.

If the condition is met, and then dropped, 1) works stop and 2) salvation is lost (not because the works stopped, but because the person has stopped accepting Christ as Lord. If Christ is Lord, they will do. If they don't, that is proof Christ isn't their Lord.

How difficult is this?

 

[Heidi]

So if we're saved by grace, then why do so many people on this board think we can lose our salvation? The OSAS is one of the longest and continual threads on this board because so many people think that works save. And why do you attack me for believing we are saved by grace? That is what is getting old.

If being saved by grace means OSAS, why isn't everyone saved?

If everyone isn't saved, there must be some condition (and they aren't works).

When this condition is met, that is when we have accepted grace: if we have accepted the condition (repentance, forsaking of sin and devotion of life to God's service), then we are saved and will do works.

If the condition is met, and then dropped, 1) works stop and 2) salvation is lost (not because the works stopped, but because the person has stopped accepting Christ as Lord. If Christ is Lord, they will do. If they don't, that is proof Christ isn't their Lord.

How difficult is this?

The bible explains this as it explains everything else God wants us to know. The bible explains all over the place that God chooses whom he wants to be saved and whom he doesn't. One such passage is Matthew 11:27, "No one knows the Father except the Son and no one knows the Son except the Father and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Another one is Romans 9: 11, "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works-but by Him who calls-she was told; 'the older will serve the younger.'"

The last passage explains it perfectly. But since none of us knows who is called, then salvation is open to all.

 

[mutzrein]

Are we not asking what the evidence of a Christian - one who is born of the Spirit - is?

The only teaching of Jesus for the evidence of spiritual birth is the reflection of godliness in our every-day life. The explanation given to Nicodemus by Jesus was: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.â€Â
Such a graphic explanation of the unseen should not be lightly glossed over, but rather considered for revelation as to the profound wisdom of its meaning. The wind can only be ‘seen’ by its reflection on the environment around us, and so it is with all who are born of the Spirit.

Paul writes to the Galatians: “You have received the Spirit, so I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit, what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious. Sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions of envy, drunkenness, orgies and the like.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.†And Paul goes on to say, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction. The one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit, will reap eternal life.â€Â

It should be noted that Paul refers to acts of the sinful nature, but refers to fruit of the Spirit.

Now, an act can always be measured by a subjective benchmark such as good, bad, acceptable, unacceptable etc. As a result, a judgement is made which leads to encouragement or discouragement. The noticeable reflection of this is a measure of self-esteem (or lack of), self-righteousness or condemnation. No matter how you look at this, both the value of an act, and its reward, are based on human intelligence.

In contrast to this, Paul refers to fruit of the Spirit. Now we all know that fruit is not formed by works, but rather reflects the nature of the vine.
Jesus had much to say about this and taught us the following: In Matthew 7 he quotes, “Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.†And in John 15 he states, “I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given unto you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.â€Â

And Jesus goes on to say, “Everything I have learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit – fruit that will last.â€Â

To remain in the vine, there are two absolute criteria:

Firstly: To acknowledge and grow in the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe, and accept that there is no other justification before God other than that which has been freely given by grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Secondly: Jesus said, “if you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.â€Â

Now if Jesus required for us to obey his commands, just as he obeyed the commands of his Father, we need to understand how Jesus received the commands of the Father, for it was certainly not through the written code. Rather, the communication between Jesus and the Father was that of the Spirit, being the Spirit of God, the Spirit by which Jesus was born. And it is by this one and same Spirit that we receive the birth of our spirit, being the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Heidi]

The Pharisees also did good works. It is the Holy Spirit inside of Christians that enables us to do good works, not our wonderful nature, pure heart, and intelligence. Therefore, those who have the Spirit in them will exemplify the fruits of the Spirit because as Paul says, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you." Once again, being a true Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. Since Jesus saved my life, I literally owe him my life which I give back to him everyday. It isn't work at all, It;s love and thankfulness!

 

[thessalonian]

For those of you who think we are saved by works instead of grace,

quote


Heidi,

Everyone knows we are not saved by good works. when are you going to learn? how long have you being Christian?

Stop attacking people who are trying to be obedient to His teachings. You are disgracing His name and teachings.

Jesus says plainly that if you love Me keep My commandments.

Don't make lame old excuses. It is getting old.

So if we're saved by grace, then why do so many people on this board think we can lose our salvation? :o The OSAS is one of the longest and continual threads on this board because so many people think that works save. And why do you attack me for believing we are saved by grace? That is what is getting old.

Heidi, why don't you respond to my post? I said exactly that we are saved by grace. The grace is what brings us to faith and it is what causes us to do good. It is the Holy Spirit working in us. But the good is not optional or automatic. The Apostle Paul tells the Galations that they have been "severed from Christ". They have "fallen from grace". Some in the OSAS camp tell me that, "yes they have fallen from grace but this only means they have lost their reward" :o . Total nonsense. We are saved by grace and if we have FALLEN from it we are no longer in grace and saved. One cannot be said to have fallen from a tree he was never in. One cannot be severed from something he was never attached to. What causes one to be severed from Christ? Fallen from grace? It is rejection of that grace. Now I am sure you are going to get in to your "who is stronger than the Holy Spirit" silliness. God does not force us to make use of the grace he so freely gives is my answer before you respond with such red herrrings. Free will is what it is all about. God frees us by the grace he gives from the bonds of sin and error in our lives. If we choose we may reject this grace and fall back the way we were which as Hebrews tells us is a worse condition than the first (before we knew Christ).

 

[thessalonian]

The Pharisees also did good works. It is the Holy Spirit inside of Christians that enables us to do good works, not our wonderful nature, pure heart, and intelligence. Therefore, those who have the Spirit in them will exemplify the fruits of the Spirit because as Paul says, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you." Once again, being a true Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. Since Jesus saved my life, I literally owe him my life which I give back to him everyday. It isn't work at all, It;s love and thankfulness!

False dichotomies. You have no love and thankfulness without grace. You do no GOOD works without grace. It is works in faith through grace that we are judged on in the end. See Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25 the sheep nad hte goats for the 100th time. We are judged by our works but as Eph 3:20-21 tells us it is God working in and through us. Giving us a clean heart.

Ps.51
[10] Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and put a new and right spirit within me.


Is 1
[16] Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
[17] learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
[18] "Come now, let us reason together,
says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
[19] If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
[20] But if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Ez 36
[24] For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land.
[25] I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
[26] A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.
[28] You shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
[29] And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses; and I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you.
[30] I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.

 

[Heidi]

The Pharisees also did good works. It is the Holy Spirit inside of Christians that enables us to do good works, not our wonderful nature, pure heart, and intelligence. Therefore, those who have the Spirit in them will exemplify the fruits of the Spirit because as Paul says, "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature, but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you." Once again, being a true Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. Since Jesus saved my life, I literally owe him my life which I give back to him everyday. It isn't work at all, It;s love and thankfulness!

False dichotomies. You have no love and thankfulness without grace. You do no GOOD works without grace. It is works in faith through grace that we are judged on in the end. See Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25 the sheep nad hte goats for the 100th time. We are judged by our works but as Eph 3:20-21 tells us it is God working in and through us. Giving us a clean heart.

Ps.51
[10] Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and put a new and right spirit within me.


Is 1
[16] Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
[17] learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
[18] "Come now, let us reason together,
says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
[19] If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
[20] But if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Ez 36
[24] For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land.
[25] I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
[26] A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
[27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.
[28] You shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
[29] And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses; and I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you.
[30] I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.

And what do you think grace is? :o It comes from the Holy Spirit! So what in my post is false? :o

 

[stovebolts]

Grace comes from God, and is applied through Christ, the creator. The Holy Spirit guides us toward that Grace.

My 2 cents.