How I Witness (The message I use) for what it's worth

[Novum]

Take a look at the world around you. Logically would the World around exist by random coincidences or is it more likely that something would have created things to work as they do?

Neither. That's a false dilemma. While a significant part of the world's formation and history was a result of random processes, there are significantly more biological processes that are not exactly synonymous with being "random".

 

[mutzrein]

A question for you Novum.

When your mother was pregnant with you, how much logic did you apply to the dad+mum=me equation?

:roll:

I presume that means none huh?

Alright then, a step further. After you were born, how much logic did you / have you applied to the same equation?

 

[Novum]

The method I use will work on anybody that God is working on

Who is god not "working on", and why?

 

[Novum]

Alright then, a step further. After you were born, how much logic did you / have you applied to the same equation?

A man and a woman both capable of conceiving can, by definition, conceive. I'm not really sure I understand what you're asking. Could you clarify?

 

[mutzrein]

Alright then, a step further. After you were born, how much logic did you / have you applied to the same equation?

A man and a woman both capable of conceiving can, by definition, conceive. I'm not really sure I understand what you're asking. Could you clarify?

Is it because of your birth you are able to come to a logical conclusion regarding the nature of your parents and who they were? Or did you ignore all the signs that they were indeed your parents and even now not believe they exist?

 

[Novum]

Is it because of your birth you are able to come to a logical conclusion regarding the nature of your parents and who they were?

I don't really think the birth itself had much of anything to do with it. I'd say that the years and years I spent growing up under the care of my parents were much more infliuential in allowing me to learn the "nature" of who they are than my birth, which I (of course) do not at all remember.

Of course, if I was still skeptical, a simple DNA test would end all speculation very quickly.

Or did you ignore all the signs that they were indeed your parents and even now not believe they exist?

That would require continued belief in a massive conspiracy revolving around me, plus total denial of all evidence to the contrary. Not really a tenable position, in my opinion. ;)

I have an idea where you might be going with all this, but do continue.

 

[newvalor]

Novum... are you a man of physics or chemistry?


actually what I'm trying to say is this. In the world around you does there exist certain laws of nature that have to exist for nature to be there. I mean if you started to take out any of those laws would nature be able to exist?

 

[Novum]

actually what I'm trying to say is this. In the world around you does there exist certain laws of nature that have to exist for nature to be there. I mean if you started to take out any of those laws would nature be able to exist?

The laws of physics, chemistry, biology, and all the other sciences are descriptive. That means that they describe how things happen in the universe - they don't make things happen by themselves.

For example, we have a rather well known theory that describes how groups of matter interact with each other. Perhaps you've heard of it - it's called the Theory of Gravity. If we were to somehow "do away" with it and erase it from all the books, it wouldn't matter one bit. It is only our description of what we see going on around us. Masses of matter would still attract and there would still be gravity. The universe doesn't care one bit what we think about it. ;)

 

[newvalor]

We call them laws, which is the way we explain them, true. But we are logical beings so we use our logic to describe things that acutally exist. Ei gravity. If gravity - particles attracting other particles, did not exist. Would the formation of anything be possible. If you just look at the solar system alone even without life, it is very systematic. We can get this system by mathematics we can see the design of it all. This my point everything in life has a set sytem with which it can work. There is a set mechanical desgin to the world around us. But you remove one of those base properties(laws) it all falls apart. ( I'm not talking about the law itself I'm talking about whay the law represents) So how would it be possible for this to happen in a random gradual way if all of the elements are needed to have the system.

 

[Novum]

If gravity - particles attracting other particles, did not exist. Would the formation of anything be possible.

Probably not.

If you just look at the solar system alone even without life, it is very systematic.

What do you find systematic about it?

There is a set mechanical desgin to the world around us.

Again, what "mechanical design" do you find? Can you give examples?

But you remove one of those base properties(laws) it all falls apart.

What evidence is there for this claim?

So how would it be possible for this to happen in a random gradual way if all of the elements are needed to have the system.

What "elements" are you referring to, and why are they "needed" to make the system?

We already know much about how the laws of physics came into existence. Between 0.01 and 1 second after the Big Bang explosion, the universe had cooled down enough to allow protons and neutrons to form and forces like gravity and electromagnetism came into being. You can read more about the timeline of the Big Bang on this great Wikipedia page.

 

[newvalor]

What do you find systematic about it?

[q

Well where do we get the name Solar "System". Because it is a system it operates in specific patterns.

You got the most dense object in the middle - The Sun - with wich everything else in the fecinity obrits the sun. E.i - Planets, comets, ateroids.

Again, what "mechanical design" do you find? Can you give examples?
[q

Mechanical was a bad word choice, sorry my mistake...I meant to say Mathmatical Design. Well we see basic shapes of geometry in the planets them selves and in the way the planet moves. You can use geometry combined with physics -"Laws of Nature". Through these we can see how the Solar System works and continues to work.

Example the earth obrits the Sun in a circular type pattern. - Geometry -. We can figure out the size by using an equation: C= Pie * 2r
(Sorry don't know how to make the pie sign)

This equation gives you the circumfrence of a circle. Math is used everyehere in the Universe. Just a side thought wouldn't you find math to be a logical?

What evidence is there for this claim?

[q

Well if we take out gravity - the fact the matter attracts matter - if this property was not there we could not get anything in the universe, it would just keep expanding. and nothing would me made.

What "elements" are you referring to, and why are they "needed" to make the system?

[q

Elements pieces to a system it was a general statemant. If you didn't have all the parts put together the right way in an engine would it work, no... For an engine to do its purpose all the parts "elements" need to be there.

We already know much about how the laws of physics came into existence. Between 0.01 and 1 second after the Big Bang explosion, the universe had cooled down enough to allow protons and neutrons to form and forces like gravity and electromagnetism came into being. You can read more about the timeline of the Big Bang on this great Wikipedia page.
[q

So you are saying that things like gravity just popped up out of the blue after the big bang. Um one problem with the big bang. You are talking about something that is infinately dense that existed before time. But if you think about it. Time cannot exist with ut matter and space. matter cannot exist without time and space. and space cannot exist with out matter and time.

This is my point and it is one you can see just by steping out side and watching the world around you every thing exist within designs there are systems everywhere. They are ordered. Problem is, without something to make the design or system - intelegant being- how would these things all come to pass. You cannot get order out of chaos. they are opposites they do not relate.

 

[Novum]

Well where do we get the name Solar "System". Because it is a system it operates in specific patterns.

You got the most dense object in the middle - The Sun - with wich everything else in the fecinity obrits the sun. E.i - Planets, comets, ateroids.

Not densest, but most massive (heaviest).

Mechanical was a bad word choice, sorry my mistake...I meant to say Mathmatical Design. Well we see basic shapes of geometry in the planets them selves and in the way the planet moves. You can use geometry combined with physics -"Laws of Nature". Through these we can see how the Solar System works and continues to work.

Example the earth obrits the Sun in a circular type pattern. - Geometry -. We can figure out the size by using an equation: C= Pie * 2r
(Sorry don't know how to make the pie sign)

Planets are not perfect spheres, and the earth is no exception. It's "fatter" (west to east) than it is "tall" (north pole to south pole). Also, planetary orbits are not at all circular. They're elliptical - they follow the path of an ellipse.

Well if we take out gravity - the fact the matter attracts matter - if this property was not there we could not get anything in the universe, it would just keep expanding. and nothing would me made.

Well, I agree that things would be a fair bit more different without gravity. However, I'm not so sure what our current best science says about universal expansion without gravity.

Elements pieces to a system it was a general statemant. If you didn't have all the parts put together the right way in an engine would it work, no... For an engine to do its purpose all the parts "elements" need to be there.

But there are many, many, many ways to build an engine. Also, anyone who's owned a car probably knows that an engine with a broken part can be a hassle - but having a broken (or missing) part does not necessarily mean the engine doesn't work.

So you are saying that things like gravity just popped up out of the blue after the big bang. Um one problem with the big bang. You are talking about something that is infinately dense that existed before time.

Nowhere did I say that it had to be infinitely dense. In fact, I don't believe our current best science claims it to be infinitely dense - just very much so.

But if you think about it. Time cannot exist with ut matter and space. matter cannot exist without time and space. and space cannot exist with out matter and time.

Evidence?

This is my point and it is one you can see just by steping out side and watching the world around you every thing exist within designs there are systems everywhere. They are ordered. Problem is, without something to make the design or system - intelegant being- how would these things all come to pass. You cannot get order out of chaos. they are opposites they do not relate.

Instead of speculating about the universe and physics, maybe we can talk a little bit more about just our world. You say that there are "systems" that are "ordered" in our world. Can you give some examples and describe how you believe them to be ordered?

 

[JM]

AV, what do you think of the little convo I posted in the other thread? Do you think that's a productive way to present the Gospel, getting the sinner to admit they're a sinner?

 

[AVBunyan]

AV, what do you think of the little convo I posted in the other thread? Do you think that's a productive way to present the Gospel, getting the sinner to admit they're a sinner?

Yes JM - I agree - you are absolutely right - a soul winner seeks to get the sinnner to admit that he is a sinner. Christ came into the world to save sinners.

And for those who try to be "sweet and nice" and sugar coat and white-wash the sinner are missing a key part of soul-winning.

This is what I posted in the OP...

Sin
“I’m sure you know what sin is. Sin is what basically violating or disobeying God’s laws. We all have sinned – Rom. 3:23 – Would you agree that you are a sinner? Good, we are all sinners.â€Â

There is nothing wrong with gettin a sinner to agree that he is a sinner. It is how you get them to a agree that keeps his attention.

God bless 8-)

 

[Dave...]

Novum, if you are still around.

I can tell you how logic played a part in my coming to faith in Jesus Christ.

Of course this is all a gift from God and part of repentance (a change of mind). Everything that the "world" offers that is said to set one free, in reality, enslaves and destroys those who trust in them. It only takes an honest evaluation with some simple "logic" to know this truth. As you begin to see the hopelessness in trusting these lies, then the obvious next step is to search for the truth. You will see little purpose in anything that you do without some sense of truth or direction in it. It's really a desperate state that many choose to try to drown out by diving into the hopelessnes of the world even further. This is the life of all those who are without Christ Jesus, as many in here will testify to. Like alcoholics, it takes a lot to put somebody in a place where they are willing to be honest about these things with themselves. Some people carry that stubborness to their grave.

When someone is willing to be honest with themselves and wants answers then this is where the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ comes into play. All you need is the faith of a mustard seed. What you will find is that many of the things that you had to learn the hard way in life are clearly warned against in the Bible, this, among other things, if your conversion is real, will build your confidence in the God's Word and make you want to search even further. The first book in the Bible that I read was the book of ecclesiastes, which confirms the vanity of putting our hope in things of the world. I challenge you to read it.

Once you begin to search the scriptures and honestly seek the truth, you will realise just how futile our fleshly logic really is because God will continually show you this with the truth. It's very humbling.

You have two choices, continue to trust a lie, or begin to search for the truth. I do believe that you are here because you have begun that search. Faith must come first, even if it's the faith of a mustard seed. Take that faith and combine it with His Word, and then you will begin to see. Your proof in logic is the failed promises and lies of the world that you know about already if you've been around the block once or twice and you are willing to be honest with yourself about it.

Book of Ecclesiastes (keys on the vanity of trusting in the world)
http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Ecclesiastes/index.html

Compare that with the message of hope, the gospel of Christ Jesus.

Dave

 

[Novum]

Novum, if you are still around.

Hello!

Of course this is all a gift from God and part of repentance (a change of mind). Everything that the "world" offers that is said to set one free, in reality, enslaves and destroys those who trust in them.

I'm rather confused about what you're referring to here. Can you give an example about something that "is said to set one free"?

It only takes an honest evaluation with some simple "logic" to know this truth. As you begin to see the hopelessness in trusting these lies, then the obvious next step is to search for the truth.

What lies? Why are they lies? Still not sure what you're talking about...

You will see little purpose in anything that you do without some sense of truth or direction in it.

Hold on there. I may be an atheist, but it is absolutely untrue that I live without "some sense of truth or direction". I have set concrete, specific life, career, and personal goals for myself; I certainly believe that my life has both truth and direction.

It's really a desperate state that many choose to try to drown out by diving into the hopelessnes of the world even further. This is the life of all those who are without Christ Jesus, as many in here will testify to.

See, I just don't view my life as hopeless, nor do I view this world, universe, or existence as hopeless. Without a higher power or god, we must assign value (happiness, pleasure, love) ourselves. I do not feel desperate nor do I feel hopeless.

Like alcoholics, it takes a lot to put somebody in a place where they are willing to be honest about these things with themselves. Some people carry that stubborness to their grave.

I find it interesting that you implicitly compare atheism to alcoholism.

When someone is willing to be honest with themselves and wants answers then this is where the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ comes into play.

I believe I've been honest with myself - and others - all my life, moreover, the search for answers is something in which all of us are engaged every day. Why does your gospel not seem to be necessary for myself or others?

this, among other things, if your conversion is real, will build your confidence in the God's Word and make you want to search even further.

There are conversions that are not real?

The first book in the Bible that I read was the book of ecclesiastes, which confirms the vanity of putting our hope in things of the world. I challenge you to read it.

I have read it - just as I've read most of the bible. I will admit, though, that this was a few years back and my memory isn't quite that good.

Once you begin to search the scriptures and honestly seek the truth, you will realise just how futile our fleshly logic really is because God will continually show you this with the truth. It's very humbling.

Here, you say that logic is futile, but at the top of your post, you said that you yourself used logic to come to faith. I'm confused now - which is it?

You have two choices, continue to trust a lie, or begin to search for the truth.

Whoa now. What lie do you believe I'm trusting?

Good talking with you, I await a response.

 

[DivineNames]

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I rather suspect that this kind of material helps to "blind" Christians. If you believe that kind of thing then you can turn your back on using any intelligence, and ignore (often reasonable) criticisms of your faith in favour of Christian "foolishness".

 

[BradtheImpaler]

“I’m sure you know what sin is. Sin is what basically violating or disobeying God’s laws. We all have sinned – Rom. 3:23 – Would you agree that you are a sinner? Good, we are all sinners.â€Â

There is nothing wrong with gettin a sinner to agree that he is a sinner. It is how you get them to a agree that keeps his attention.

This sounds very manipulative. Your message has no effect unless and until you get the subject to "see" that he is a sinner. Just "how do you get them to agree"? By hoping they have a guilty conscience? *The correct question for the "sinner" to ask at this point, I think, would be where is the justice in God condemning us for our failure to measure up to a standard of moral perfection when we are not perfect and cannot be?* It's easy for God to be perfect, if that's what He is. How/why would He expect us to be if we are not God?

*actually, that may be the 2nd question that should be asked after "where is the evidence that there is a God who is going to judge us"?