How many are Elect? And who are they?

[Christ_empowered]

OK, so let's just assume that the Calvinists are right on about TULIP and predestination. Do you think maybe the move towards a post-Christian world (in the post-Industrial west, at least) is caused in part by God choosing a different set of people to follow Him?

If you look at the stats (don't have any for you; guess you'll have to take my word for it, lol), you'll see that Europe, Canada, and the US are becoming less Christian (and less devoutly, traditionally Christian amongst those who claim to be Christian), while people in less developed, poorer areas are filling up both Catholic and Protestant churches en masse. The Catholic Church now has to look to non-Western nations for many of her priests; at some point in the future, we may have a non-European, possibly black, Pope. That's great--the Catholic Church in particular is diverse, so its about time--but for me, with my Calvinist leanings, it raises a question: has God abandoned much of the developed world and left us to our sins?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Jesus said, the angels “will gather his elect”. The word “elect” is translated from the Greek word “eklektos.” The Greek word “eklektos” is recorded 24 times in the New Testament manuscripts and it is translated either "the elect" or "the chosen."

Some believe "the elect" is Israel others believe "the elect" is all believers. So take your pick.

IN my beliefs however, when Jesus says - “for the sake of the elect,” “to deceive even the elect” and “ they will gather his elect” - He is referring to all believers.

Therefore, Jesus was describing what "the elect" see during the Great Tribulation before His angels gather them at the trumpet call.

For those who still believe "the elect" is Israel, not the Church, God's Word says.

What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did (Romans 11:7).

​

 

[Gazelle]

The term "elect" has been discussed extensively in other threads...and is an interesting study. I believe the elect are those who have salvation through Christ. Calvinists (again, also discussed elsewhere) believe that not all are elected because some are not really fully human, having been created/manifested by satan himself. But all who are the creation of God, human beings, all are called to accept His GIFT of salvation. The Elect are those who have accepted the call to accept Christ's redeeming work on the cross.

While it may appear that the numbers of Christians within the US and EU are diminishing, overall the body of believers is growing astoundingly! From combined reports from missionaries in the middle east it is estimated that over 15,000 muslims accept Christ EACH DAY!

 

[elijah23]

OK, so let's just assume that the Calvinists are right on about TULIP and predestination. Do you think maybe the move towards a post-Christian world (in the post-Industrial west, at least) is caused in part by God choosing a different set of people to follow Him?

If you look at the stats (don't have any for you; guess you'll have to take my word for it, lol), you'll see that Europe, Canada, and the US are becoming less Christian (and less devoutly, traditionally Christian amongst those who claim to be Christian), while people in less developed, poorer areas are filling up both Catholic and Protestant churches en masse. The Catholic Church now has to look to non-Western nations for many of her priests; at some point in the future, we may have a non-European, possibly black, Pope. That's great--the Catholic Church in particular is diverse, so its about time--but for me, with my Calvinist leanings, it raises a question: has God abandoned much of the developed world and left us to our sins?

The Lord doesn’t play favorites. Anyone who does the Lord’s will will be blessed.

 

[HisSheep]

Hi, Christ_empowered.

I would submit that one way in which God draws His people to Himself is through persecution. On a personal level, have you felt that God brought a difficulty into your life to get your attention? It works doesn't it!

It’s true of Nations too. When things are going smoothly and a nation is fat and happy, that nation turns away from God. Israel in the OT serves as our example: “Again Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord†(Judges 2:11, 3:12, 4:1, 6:1, 10:6, 13:1…) There is just no way for us to comprehend how He is working things. But we do know that He is working them.

We also know that He will call people from every tongue and nation. So we shouldn’t be surprised to see the gospel spread into places where it has never before been.

To answer to the O.P. title question: We don’t know exactly the number of the elect. But I suspect it is about a third of the people. I believe this because of Zechariah 13:8-9:

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Perhaps coincidentally, a third of people in the world self identify as Christian.


-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

Calvinists (again, also discussed elsewhere) believe that not all are elected because some are not really fully human, having been created/manifested by satan himself.

Huh? Not fully human? Where’d that come from? If you are referring to the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, in which the devil plants the tares, I don’t think this is intended to identify Satan as the actual creator of the tares. I think that they are “children of the devil†only in a spiritual sense, just as believers are “Sons of God†in a spiritual sense:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. (John 8:44)

In another sense (with regard to creation), all humans are brothers:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth… (Acts 17:26)

Be careful not to mix the two senses of brotherhood.

Satan can create nothing. God created ALL things (including Satan and his buddies) for His own good pleasure:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Rev. 4:11)

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4)

-HisSheep

 

[Gazelle]

Huh? Not fully human? Where’d that come from?

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
One of the reasons for the flood was that the "sons of God" --the fallen angels-- had created the Nephilim race. This was a mixture of human and fallen angels. Satan can and does use the creation of God for his own devices. (What he wants for us is evil, but God turns it for good. ;))



KJV
Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Numbers 13:22
They went up through the Negev and came to Hebron, where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, lived.

Numbers 13:28
But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

Numbers 13:33
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them." [/FONT]

 

[Gazelle]

(Zechariah 13:8-9)

This refers to Jews during the tribulation, 2/3 will be killed. Those that escape to Petra will live.

 

[HisSheep]

Gazelle,

Wow. It’s times like this when I really like a forum. Your post #7 is fascinating. I never connected Numbers 13 with Genesis 6. Am I the only one?

I’ll have to do more studying before I feel very comfortable with it, but wow. Where can I read more?

About Zechariah 13: I have been accused several times of suggesting “double fulfillment†for holding views like this, but here I go… I think God delivers prophesy to the world in many ways. One is by foreshadowing events with actual events, or correlating events. A perfect example is the destruction of the temple in 70AD foreshadowing the destruction of the earth. I also connect the Passover with the Crucifixion with our personal sacrifice a la Romans 12:1. The Promised Land is a type of Heaven. There are others, but you get the idea.

I don’t want to belabor the point, just explain briefly:
I think Zechariah 13:9 sounds too much like other prophesies that I think relate to the New Covenant to be limited only to Jews.… Verses like Hosea 2:23, Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel, 37:23, 2Corinthians 6:16 and Rev. 21:7 …and there are at least 20 others. You know… “…and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.â€

He says it to BOTH Israel AND the church:

God’s relationship with Israel is very much prophetic, and corollary to his relationship with the church. I don’t think the church replaces Israel, but God speaks through Israel, both in flesh and in Word. Much of the Word is about Israel’s flesh… I think the Old and New Testaments are woven together more tightly than we know:

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1 Corinthians 10:11)

I think you see what I mean, but I guess I’m prepared for everyone to disagree.

-HisSheep

 

[Gazelle]

Gazelle,

Wow. It’s times like this when I really like a forum. Your post #7 is fascinating. I never connected Numbers 13 with Genesis 6. Am I the only one?

I’ll have to do more studying before I feel very comfortable with it, but wow. Where can I read more?.

-HisSheep

1 Peter 3:17-20; Jude 1:6; Deuteronomy 9:2; Job 1:6,7; 38:7

Enjoy!

 

[handy]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]

[/FONT]Calvinists (again, also discussed elsewhere) believe that not all are elected because some are not really fully human, having been created/manifested by satan himself.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] One of the reasons for the flood was that the "sons of God" --the fallen angels-- had created the Nephilim race. This was a mixture of human and fallen angels. Satan can and does use the creation of God for his own devices. (What he wants for us is evil, but God turns it for good. ;))



KJV
Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Numbers 13:22
They went up through the Negev and came to Hebron, where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak, lived.

Numbers 13:28
But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

Numbers 13:33
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them." [/FONT]

My Dad was an elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Also, I went to two Calvinist churches, Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Modesto, California and Redeemer Presbyterian (Presbyterian Church of America) in Winston-Salem, NC. spanning a period of about 5 years. The OPC changed pastors while I was there, so I had the opportunity of sitting under the preaching and teaching of three different Calvinist preachers.

In five years of church membership and any number of elder-led Bible Studies and Sunday Schools there was never a teaching that those not chosen are not chosen because of being "not fully human". Although all these pastors and elders I've known taught about the Nephilim, they each presented that the "Sons of God" were believing men who married unbelieving women.

They all emphatically preached and taught against the idea that demons ever mated with women.

Is there a reason why you are attributing this to Calvinist belief? I'd love to see where you might be getting this from because I guarantee you if anyone suggested such a thing in either of the churches or to any of the pastors or elders of the Calvinist churches that I've known personally, they would strongly deny it.

 

[Gazelle]

I don't doubt that they would deny it. ;) However, that doesn't negate some of the beliefs behind the "election" clause. It does fall into that area of those who are not predestinated to be called. There is no conflict imo, in my belief.

The catechism states:

IV. Election

Consistent with the doctrine of sovereignty under which God is seen to determine all things, Presbyterians believe that God also provides the knowledge of and acceptance of Christ which leads to salvation. Our personal redemption is not due to any goodness of our own, for we have none; neither is it earned by our good works, for sinners can do nothing to merit redemption. We find Christ because He first finds us. We love Him because He first loved us. We become His because He chooses us, calling us and sanctifying us after He justifies us.

Presbyterians do not pretend to understand God’s election of some to salvation but they know they did not seek God until they were sought, they did not know Him until He enlightened their hearts, they did not believe until He gave them faith, and they did not come until they felt themselves moved. We cannot fathom the mysteries of His will, but we know that without Him we would not be where we are.

The doctrine of election is dear to Presbyterians because it honors God’s sovereignty in all human affairs and because it assures those who trust the Lord Jesus Christ in a way that no dependence on themselves can do. Such faith assures us that all things work together for good to those God calls, and that nothing can separate them from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus now or in the future. This assures believers that they can go forward boldly wherever God leads, eternally secure in God’s love sealed by the Holy Spirit.

The Westminster Confession of Faith (Testimony) says:
1. Preaching the Gospel consists in the offer of salvation through Christ to sinners, accompanied with such an explanation of the various parts of God’s Word as may help to persuade men to receive Christ as Savior, and to live and walk in Him. 2 Cor. 5:20; Matt. 28:20; Isa. 55:1-3.

2. The elect are effectually called by means of the Gospel offer. This offer is not a declaration to any sinner that his name is in the Book of Life. It is founded upon God’s command to offer Christ and all His benefits to sinners. There is no inconsistency between the biblical doctrine of particular redemption and the command to offer the Gospel to all men. Deut. 29:29; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:46- 47; 2 Tim. 2:19.

3. We reject the teaching that the Gospel offer of salvation is freely and truly offered only to the elect. We reject the teaching that particular redemption is to be so understood and presented that Christ as ransom and propitiation is not preached or offered to all men indiscriminately.

4. We reject the teaching that all will be effectually called and ultimately saved.

 

[HisSheep]

This believer in predestination sees no need for there to be a reason for God’s choice, besides His whim. I won’t immediately discount the idea though; I’ll look into it with an open mind.

So often (perhaps every time?) in scripture we see God choose people without cause or merit. It seems to be His pattern to pick an unseemly candidate and then miraculously enable them. I think that is what most glorifies Him.

I am inclined to believe that this is the case in salvation, too.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

The Westminster Confession of Faith (Testimony) says:
1. Preaching the Gospel consists in the offer of salvation through Christ to sinners, accompanied with such an explanation of the various parts of God’s Word as may help to persuade men to receive Christ as Savior, and to live and walk in Him. 2 Cor. 5:20; Matt. 28:20; Isa. 55:1-3.

2. The elect are effectually called by means of the Gospel offer. This offer is not a declaration to any sinner that his name is in the Book of Life. It is founded upon God’s command to offer Christ and all His benefits to sinners. There is no inconsistency between the biblical doctrine of particular redemption and the command to offer the Gospel to all men. Deut. 29:29; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:46- 47; 2 Tim. 2:19.

3. We reject the teaching that the Gospel offer of salvation is freely and truly offered only to the elect. We reject the teaching that particular redemption is to be so understood and presented that Christ as ransom and propitiation is not preached or offered to all men indiscriminately.

4. We reject the teaching that all will be effectually called and ultimately saved.

Not that it has bearing on this issue, but I can't find these phrases in the Westminster Confession of 1646. Perhaps there are different versions?

-HisSheep

 

[Eventide]

To answer the title of this thread..

The Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God.. period.

All who place their faith and trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins are baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.. they become members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. the one who IS the elect.. and that is why they're called the elect.. because they are IN HIM.

God says plainly to all.. if any man shall come after Him, let him deny himself and take up his cross, for if we shall seek to save our own life we shall lose it and if we lose it for Him and the gospel we shall save it.

Then, even after a person is saved and in Christ.. it's not their old life which is justified before God, but rather the life of Christ IN THEM that is justified.

It's not Christ and me, it's Christ in me, my hope of glory. We're called to put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.. as He alone is the way, the truth and the life.

 

[cyberjosh]

To answer the title of this thread..

The Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God.. period.

All who place their faith and trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sins are baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.. they become members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. the one who IS the elect.. and that is why they're called the elect.. because they are IN HIM.

That brings up an interesting question though. If you were once saved by grace and placed into Christ but you ultimately fell away and rejected Jesus' sacrifice trampling it underfoot (Hebrews 10:26-29), do you become 'unelect' or were you never elect to begin with? And if you were never elect to begin with then salvation and election cannot be equated (noting also though that salvation has a future aspect - Matthew 24:13 - as well as a past/present one - Titus 3:5).

~Josh

 

[mondar]

Do you think maybe the move towards a post-Christian world (in the post-Industrial west, at least) is caused in part by God choosing a different set of people to follow Him?

I would like to make a post concerning the post Christian world in the post industrial west while I eat my Post Tostum pastry.

Since I dont have anything intelligent to say about the subject of where to find the elect and what numbers they are in, I will have to setting for having the 17th post in this thread and being silly. On the other hand, I wonder if Constantine was one of the elect? How about Aleric the Visagoth? Cool name for a Calvinist! Aleric the Calvinist. Oh wait, he was Arian. That really will not work. What about Clovis and the Merovingians? They became orthodox! Or he married an orthodox princess or something like that. When the English Anglo Saxons converted from Paganism, at least they ended up fighting those nasty vikings, we should count them among the elect. Surely when Richard the Lionheart had a cross painted on his clothing that means we can number him as a real Calvinist! But..... I guess he was Norman. Bummer. Was the USA or Britain a "Christian nation?" IMO Oliver Cromwell surely would have called Britain a Christian nation when he ruled. Does that work? No, nevermind, he was reformed and some might think him worse then one of those smelly barbarians I mentioned above. The deistic founders of the US constitution who were enlightenment philosophers, can we call them the founders of a "Christian nation?" Well, my personal favorite above is Richard the Lionheart. All the elect should have crosses painted on their chest!

 

[childeye]

I would like to make a post concerning the post Christian world in the post industrial west while I eat my Post Tostum pastry.

Since I dont have anything intelligent to say about the subject of where to find the elect and what numbers they are in, I will have to setting for having the 17th post in this thread and being silly. On the other hand, I wonder if Constantine was one of the elect? How about Aleric the Visagoth? Cool name for a Calvinist! Aleric the Calvinist. Oh wait, he was Arian. That really will not work. What about Clovis and the Merovingians? They became orthodox! Or he married an orthodox princess or something like that. When the English Anglo Saxons converted from Paganism, at least they ended up fighting those nasty vikings, we should count them among the elect. Surely when Richard the Lionheart had a cross painted on his clothing that means we can number him as a real Calvinist! But..... I guess he was Norman. Bummer. Was the USA or Britain a "Christian nation?" IMO Oliver Cromwell surely would have called Britain a Christian nation when he ruled. Does that work? No, nevermind, he was reformed and some might think him worse then one of those smelly barbarians I mentioned above. The deistic founders of the US constitution who were enlightenment philosophers, can we call them the founders of a "Christian nation?" Well, my personal favorite above is Richard the Lionheart. All the elect should have crosses painted on their chest!

Mondar, I am offended at your post. What scriptural proof do you have that those barbarians were smelly?

 

[Eventide]

That brings up an interesting question though. If you were once saved by grace and placed into Christ but you ultimately fell away and rejected Jesus' sacrifice trampling it underfoot (Hebrews 10:26-29), do you become 'unelect' or were you never elect to begin with?

Johh, imo everything is simplified and Christ alone is glorified when we see that He is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom He delights.

That way, being the elect has nothing to do with you or me, but rather our being IN CHRIST or not.. so if one is the elect because they're IN HIM.. then it becomes a matter of whether or not a person can be taken 'out of Christ'.. in order for them to no longer be the elect.. that's a huge topic in itself..

Although regardless of whether we can or can not be taken out of Christ.. election is simplified and Christ alone is glorified in it. All this other stuff about certain individuals being the elect for no reason (unconditionally) is placed to rest and the whole matter is simple to understand.. imo.

And if you were never elect to begin with then salvation and election cannot be equated (noting also though that salvation has a future aspect - Matthew 24:13 - as well as a past/present one - Titus 3:5).

~Josh

I believe that any man in Adam can become the elect of God by hearing the gospel and then trusting in Christ.. and perhaps the toughest pill to swallow there is losing my life for Him so that I shall save it.. there's no exceptions to that.. we're either going to heed that call or go on in denial of its truth.. to our own destruction. And God alone knows the heart.. He alone places each one into Christ and seals that faith by baptizing them into the BODY OF CHRIST.

And if you're in Christ, then you're the elect of God, chosen in Him.. even before the foundation of the world.. because He decided that long before any of us came on the seen.

Good questions, thanks for sharing.

 

[childeye]

someone somewhere on another thread said their was a Pastor who once said the elect are those who are sent to preach the Gospel. That is an interesting take.