How many are Elect? And who are they?

[cyberjosh]

Mondar, I am offended at your post. What scriptural proof do you have that those barbarians were smelly?

Well, all those barbarians he mentioned are dead by now, and when Jesus went to Lazarus's tomb after he was dead Martha said, "Lord, by this time he stinketh" (John 11:39), so you connect the dots..... ;-)

 

[savedbygrace57]

Only God knows the exact number of the Elect, and they are the ones whom Christ died for ! Rom 8:33-34



33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen ag
ain, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[HisSheep]

Eventide adds an interesting facet. It’s true, Christ is the elect.

BUT (there’s always a but, isn’t there?)

Necessarily, His body on earth (the church) is also elect.

We can’t discount the dozens of times in their epistles that Peter and Paul address the faithful as “the elect†or “chosenâ€.

Read carefully the beginning of 1Peter:

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In verses 1 and 2, notice that Peter addresses his letter to the “electâ€. (not to Jesus, mind you, but to the rest of the elect.)

In verse 3 we read that “He hath begotten us againâ€. Jesus was begotten, too. We were sprinkled and set apart by the spirit so that we WILL obey.

In verses 4 and 5 we read that our inheritance (that of the faithful) is certain.

This is truth, every word of it, straight-up.

-HisSheep

 

[mondar]

Well, all those barbarians he mentioned are dead by now, and when Jesus went to Lazarus's tomb after he was dead Martha said, "Lord, by this time he stinketh" (John 11:39), so you connect the dots..... ;-)

Lazarus was a visagoth?

 

[HisSheep]

:biglol

 

[jasoncran]

lol. the ecfs and devout saved god fearing catholics in the roman rite were calvinists first. my bad

 

[childeye]

Well, all those barbarians he mentioned are dead by now, and when Jesus went to Lazarus's tomb after he was dead Martha said, "Lord, by this time he stinketh" (John 11:39), so you connect the dots..... ;-)

May God bless you for taking the time to correct my ignorance.

 

[childeye]

Eventide adds an interesting facet. It’s true, Christ is the elect.

BUT (there’s always a but, isn’t there?)

Necessarily, His body on earth (the church) is also elect.

We can’t discount the dozens of times in their epistles that Peter and Paul address the faithful as “the elect†or “chosenâ€.

Read carefully the beginning of 1Peter:

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In verses 1 and 2, notice that Peter addresses his letter to the “electâ€. (not to Jesus, mind you, but to the rest of the elect.)

In verse 3 we read that “He hath begotten us againâ€. Jesus was begotten, too. We were sprinkled and set apart by the spirit so that we WILL obey.

In verses 4 and 5 we read that our inheritance (that of the faithful) is certain.

This is truth, every word of it, straight-up.

-HisSheep

I think you make a good point which is in line with cyberjosh. "For those whom He foreknew". I would point out that God being outside of time and us in time, brings up the possibility that to God, all this happens at once or has already happened and we are simply arguing semantics.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Johh, imo everything is simplified and Christ alone is glorified when we see that He is the elect of God, the chosen one in whom He delights.

That way, being the elect has nothing to do with you or me, but rather our being IN CHRIST or not.. so if one is the elect because they're IN HIM.. then it becomes a matter of whether or not a person can be taken 'out of Christ'.. in order for them to no longer be the elect.. that's a huge topic in itself..

Although regardless of whether we can or can not be taken out of Christ.. election is simplified and Christ alone is glorified in it. All this other stuff about certain individuals being the elect for no reason (unconditionally) is placed to rest and the whole matter is simple to understand.. imo.





I believe that any man in Adam can become the elect of God by hearing the gospel and then trusting in Christ.. and perhaps the toughest pill to swallow there is losing my life for Him so that I shall save it.. there's no exceptions to that.. we're either going to heed that call or go on in denial of its truth.. to our own destruction. And God alone knows the heart.. He alone places each one into Christ and seals that faith by baptizing them into the BODY OF CHRIST.

And if you're in Christ, then you're the elect of God, chosen in Him.. even before the foundation of the world.. because He decided that long before any of us came on the seen.

Good questions, thanks for sharing.

AMEN!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Only God knows the exact number of the Elect, and they are the ones whom Christ died for ! Rom 8:33-34



33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen ag
ain, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Christ died for ALL, but not ALL will receive Him as Lord and Savior...

 

[Eventide]

Eventide adds an interesting facet. It’s true, Christ is the elect.

BUT (there’s always a but, isn’t there?)

Necessarily, His body on earth (the church) is also elect.

We can’t discount the dozens of times in their epistles that Peter and Paul address the faithful as “the elect†or “chosenâ€.

So WHY would you think they are called the elect ?

Is it because they are members of the BODY OF CHRIST (the one who is the elect)... or do you believe that it is because God unconditionally chose them.. ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ died for ALL, but not ALL will receive Him as Lord and Savior...

Not the Christ I know and serve, all that He died for shall be made Righteous Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So we serve different Christ's. All for whom my Christ was lifted up for, shall come to Him and receive Him by Faith Jn 12:32

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[Eventide]

Romans 5:18 makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR that by the righteousness of ONE (Christ, the Last Adam) that the FREE GIFT has come upon ALL MEN..

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The only reason why anyone would deny this simple biblical truth is so that they can maintain some man centered doctrine which teaches that they're the elect.. and that Christ only died for them..

Blatant denial of the truth.. simple as that.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Calvinism isn't about saying that Christ only died for "us;" its basically an understanding that none come to Christ but those who are called and then only the Elect stick with Jesus through thick and thin ("Perseverance of the Saints"). False conversions--conversions made for any number of reasons, such as external pressure and psychological reasons--won't "stick" over the long haul. The Elect still struggle with sin, but at the end of their lives they will die as God's friends, not His enemies, not because they're "special," but simply because God chose to save them from damnation, which is the default spiritual position for all of mankind.

I understand if you disagree with Calvinism, but please don't try to reduce it to some psychological need on the part of Calvinists to feel "special." Catholics even believe in predestination, although they reject Calvinism.

 

[Eventide]

Calvinism isn't about saying that Christ only died for "us;" its basically an understanding that none come to Christ but those who are called and then only the Elect stick with Jesus through thick and thin ("Perseverance of the Saints"). False conversions--conversions made for any number of reasons, such as external pressure and psychological reasons--won't "stick" over the long haul. The Elect still struggle with sin, but at the end of their lives they will die as God's friends, not His enemies, not because they're "special," but simply because God chose to save them from damnation, which is the default spiritual position for all of mankind.

I understand if you disagree with Calvinism, but please don't try to reduce it to some psychological need on the part of Calvinists to feel "special." Catholics even believe in predestination, although they reject Calvinism.

If you can't see how God choosing you for no reason and letting all others go... is SPECIAL... then so be it.. imo it doesn't get any more SPECIAL than that..

Not to mention denying the simple truth of scripture just presented in Rom 5:18..

 

[Eventide]

Predestination

IMO Predestination is a simple biblical term which again glorifies Christ and Christ alone.. Because the scriptures teach us that Predestination is to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.. And we're all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

That was decided by God before the foundation of the world.

 

[cyberjosh]

Lazarus was a visagoth?

Now THAT'S divine revelation!

 

[cyberjosh]

May God bless you for taking the time to correct my ignorance.

It takes great insight to understand the theological significance of 'stinkiness'.... but, alas, I cannot attain to it. ;)

I wonder how much better (smelling) the world would be if Numbers 6:24-26 said:

May the Lord bless you and keep you:
May the Lord make His face shine upon you,
and be gracious unto you:
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you deodorant.

At the least I don't think Mondar would be complaining about stinky visagoths (calvinist or non).

 

[Sinthesis]

It takes great insight to understand the theological significance of 'stinkiness'.... but, alas, I cannot attain to it. ;)

I wonder how much better (smelling) the world would be if Numbers 6:24-26 said:

May the Lord bless you and keep you:
May the Lord make His face shine upon you,
and be gracious unto you:
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you deodorant.

At the least I don't think Mondar would be complaining about stinky visagoths (calvinist or non).

I stink, therefore I am!:halo

 

[HisSheep]

I think you make a good point which is in line with cyberjosh. "For those whom He foreknew". I would point out that God being outside of time and us in time, brings up the possibility that to God, all this happens at once or has already happened and we are simply arguing semantics.

Yes! God says thing like this: Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps. 2Kings 19:25

I know this verse is not with respect to salvation, but it speaks loudly to the "I have done it" component that you mention. There are many verses like this. He simply says the word, and it sure enough happens.

There is some truth to the notion that God can look across time like we look across distance, but we must be careful not to assume that He then "chooses" those who "choose" Him. This makes US sovereign and NOT Him. The bible is clear that God has elected some and not others, for His good pleasure and purpose. Other constructs assume that God wants to save all people, yet is powerless to actually do it. This clashes with WAY too much scripture.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:26-29)

We know that people disbelieve because they are not sheep.
We know Jesus knows the sheep.
We know the sheep follow.
We know God gave the sheep to Jesus.
We know the sheep can't be "all men".
We know that Jesus will loose none of the sheep

How to reconcile this?

If it's really just a system of, "anyone who wants it can come and get it." then why do we read SO MUCH about God "seeking out His sheep who are scattered among the heathen"? Jesus is exactly the fulfillment of those very chapters in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah in which we are told of a Shepherd who will gather the lost sheep.

Never once do we read about "determining who the sheep are"...

-HisSheep