How secure are we in Christ?

[smaller]

Do you know all these? Do you realize how SECURE you are in Christ?

Some believers accept the security of the believer, but the notion itself by many is just way too simplistic. A rather childish notion.

Why?

Let's look at a couple of simple examples:

Here is a factual statement of Paul's condition:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For purposes of simple observations Paul in the above described the 'evil present' with him as a 'presence' other than himself OR he would have simply stated, "I am evil." IF Paul had come outright and said "I am evil" who would listen to him? I certainly wouldn't. But he didn't say that. Paul differentiated himself from the 'evil present' with him, in his body of death.

He as Gods child, Paul, was totally saved and secure. Does that then 'excuse and authorize' the evil present with Paul?

Uh, no.

That is why 'justifying' the entirety of any believer is utterly futile. None of us can justify our evil thoughts, words or actions in the Name of God and guess what? We 'all' have evil thoughts, words and actions. Are those things authorized, under Grace, Okey Dokey? Uh no. Such things remain rightfully utterly condemned by every measure of scripture. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have a very accurate picture of themselves.

Let's try the same exercise again using another description that Paul provided about himself:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Again, there was Paul and there was the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh. Was Paul secure as a child of God? Of course. No question about it. But also and obviously that was not all that was 'in or with Paul.' IN fact it's pretty easy to connect the dot of that messenger of Satan to the 'evil present' with Paul. For all intents and purposes Paul had a DEVIL in his flesh. Not an illness, not nearsightedness, not any number of other guesswork, but a devil.

Was Paul secure? Beyond any doubt. Was the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh secure? Uh, no. Not a chance. Not even a remote chance.

That is why the notion is simplistic. Believers who make such claims only show they don't have a very accurate picture of themselves. Not much more than that.

Any believer who admits temptation is 'internal' and of the 'tempter' should see:

A. where the tempter is (between their own two ears)

and

B. they would never try to justify either that worker or his working in them

Pretty simple isn't it?

enjoy!

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[gr8grace]

The Promise of God:

There is a great promise from God that the believer has eternal security. In Jude 24-25 a doxology is used at the end of the teaching to point to the fact that God will deliver on ALL of His promises.

Jude 24-25~~Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory blameless with great joy…” “To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory now and forever. Amen.”

By His Grace, God keeps on preventing us from falling. We do not keep our selves from falling.

He has said that He will Keep us from falling. Does God Change or take back what He has given? This is eternal security with Great Joy! No He will not change, God does not take back Gifts that He renders out. James 1:17 States that God is immutable, He can never change from His absolute perfection. He can never cancel out His Grace gift of salvation for the believer. Eph 2:8-9

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The perfect integrity of God cannot be canceled by the failure or renunciation of any believer living on earth according to 2 Timothy 2:11-13. God is faithful to His Word. If we died with Him as we have as believers, then we will live with Him forever. If we endure suffering for blessing, we will rule with Him as mature believers. If we deny Him by refusing to grow spiritually, He will not be able to convey rewards and blessings that spiritual growth always brings. Even though we may be unfaithful, disbelieving, or faithless following our salvation, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13)


The doctrine of eternal security is a blessed Gift from God and we should learn it and live it. But it is not about us. This doctrine is about God and His integrity.

Eternal security is based on Gods perfect and immutable integrity.God does NOT take back what He gives, ever! He does not and will not take back what He Gives.

 

[gr8grace]

good news!

 

[Elijah674]

There is nothing wrong with the promise as it is READ CORRECTLY!

--Elijah

 

[gr8grace]

Apart from the Doctrine of eternal life, do you know that the bible offers all kinds of "rationales" to the validity of eternal security?

The Positional Rationale

The Logical Rationale

The Hand of God Rationale

The Experience Rationale

The Family of God Rationale

The Inheritance of God Rationale

The Body of Christ Rationale

The Sealing of the Holy Spirit Rationale

The Greek Tense Rationale

The Promise of God Rationale

The Eternal Life Rationale

The Love of God Rationale

The Sovereignty of God Rationale

The Imputation Rationale

The Logical rationale: Rom 8:31-32 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Romans 8:31-32)

Paul uses “a fortiori†logic to present God’s way of dealing with mankind.

If God is willing to Give mankind His Highest and Best(His Son) it stands to reason that he would not withhold the lesser(eternal life, deliverance from the lake of fire.....)

The Greek tense Rationale: And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.†(Acts 16:31)


The Greek word for “believe†in Acts 16:31 is pisteuo and is in the constantive aeroist tense which means to believe in a point of time which is perpetuated throughout eternity – and you shall be saved forever. This is referring to an instant of faith, and it means once and forever you are saved.

Do you know all these? Do you realize how SECURE you are in Christ?

I'm convinced. Funny how we have 15 threads on conditional security and not a one of those adherents have made a BIBLICAL attempt to refute this on this thread.

Im Just going to say "hi" on this thread to keep the truth popping up in the popular false threads that are dominating this site.

 

[gr8grace]

Just bringing it back to the top. Where are all the conditional security people?

 

[smaller]

Just bringing it back to the top. Where are all the conditional security people?

It is easy to see why and how some believers land on insecurity or technically, the UNKNOWN salvation.

Such say they 'might be saved' IF they do X...X being 'continue in faith' or 'be legally obedient' or 'witness' or 'don't sin' or 'sin and confess' or any other number of what I might see as 'games' to keep themselves temporarily secure.

In the end all such sights are legitimate to the extent that no christian in their right mind should be providing any excuses for sin and evil. And that is precisely where the Grace camps go astray. They fail to provide adequate judgments for that matter and instead fall into OPENLY EXCUSING sin and evil.

Ultimately if the questions of sin and evil are addressed both parties would come to agreements.

And they would all be OSAS...;)

and technically every believer is OSAS, at least for 'themselves.' And in this way they too somehow [via whatever formulas] also excuse their own factual sin and evil.

So it can be a vicious little circle.

It is however resolvable by HONESTY in the scriptures. It is a bit of an unpleasant journey, but it CAN be done.

s

 

[gr8grace]

Just bringing it back to the top. Where are all the conditional security people?

It is easy to see why and how some believers land on insecurity or technically, the UNKNOWN salvation.

Such say they 'might be saved' IF they do X...X being 'continue in faith' or 'be legally obedient' or 'witness' or 'don't sin' or 'sin and confess' or any other number of what I might see as 'games' to keep themselves temporarily secure.

In the end all such sights are legitimate to the extent that no christian in their right mind should be providing any excuses for sin and evil. And that is precisely where the Grace camps go astray. They fail to provide adequate judgments for that matter and instead fall into OPENLY EXCUSING sin and evil.

Ultimately if the questions of sin and evil are addressed both parties would come to agreements.

And they would all be OSAS...;)

and technically every believer is OSAS, at least for 'themselves.' And in this way they too somehow [via whatever formulas] also excuse their own factual sin and evil.

So it can be a vicious little circle.

It is however resolvable by HONESTY in the scriptures. It is a bit of an unpleasant journey, but it CAN be done.

s

I hear you and know what you are saying.

I would say that if the question of Grace was Addressed and fully understood by Christians not a one of us would question OSAS.

Jesus took care of Sin and evil on the Cross it is finished, PERIOD. Our Churches Have done a tremendous,spectacular,superb,astounding job at teaching us about our sin. When sin and evil is not the issue!

Christ and His Grace is the issue, most do not understand it though.

Most Christians could give us a 3 day dissertation on Sin and evil. However most can not describe or explain what biblical Grace is.

Grace: Is all that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor,kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God alone,not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.

I will Get accused of teaching," Sin all you want then." Its not even worth my breath to try to defend that I do not. The thing is though, a Christian CAN live like Hell and still be saved. THAT IS GRACE.

The Christian who lives like hell, will have the worst moment of His life at the Judgement seat of Christ. He will feel the SHAME of not living in the Plan that God had for his life. And He will be a happy servant to the believer who lived in Gods plan for his life.

Its amazing though, teach biblical grace and one sees people change. Grace changes people. Peoples striving to be good, usually fails.

 

[smaller]

I hear you and know what you are saying.

I would say that if the question of Grace was Addressed and fully understood by Christians not a one of us would question OSAS.

Jesus took care of Sin and evil on the Cross it is finished, PERIOD. Our Churches Have done a tremendous,spectacular,superb,astounding job at teaching us about our sin. When sin and evil is not the issue!

It is from the non-OSAS camps.

and I can't say that I am not sympathetic to their sights of being against sin and evil as I am also against same. That is beyond question to me and should be for every believer.

Christ and His Grace is the issue, most do not understand it though.

Most Christians could give us a 3 day dissertation on Sin and evil. However most can not describe or explain what biblical Grace is.

Well, you are then approaching the weakness of the Grace camps views.

I can not 'excuse' sin and evil on the basis of 'grace' nor can any of us. Excusing sin and evil merely AUTHORIZES same.

Grace: Is all that God is free to do for mankind without compromising His divine essence. Grace means favor,kindness and mercy. Grace is free, unmerited love and favor from God alone,not from human works or because we are attractive to God. Grace is that in God which acts freely to save and bless mankind because all demands of holiness have been satisfied in Christ.

I am quite an expert on Grace. It has not led me to conclude that sin and evil are off the hook.

I will Get accused of teaching," Sin all you want then." Its not even worth my breath to try to defend that I do not. The thing is though, a Christian CAN live like Hell and still be saved. THAT IS GRACE.

And I'm sure you'll see that many would disagree with that basis.

and for the record, I would agree with your statement, just not how you get there.

To me believers who seek to condemn other believers to burn alive forever are committing just as bad of a sin as the believer they are seeking to condemn.

So mark up another dilemma.

The Christian who lives like hell, will have the worst moment of His life at the Judgement seat of Christ. He will feel the SHAME of not living in the Plan that God had for his life. And He will be a happy servant to the believer who lived in Gods plan for his life.

Not quite sure where you pulled that rabbit from....

Its amazing though, teach biblical grace and one sees people change. Grace changes people. Peoples striving to be good, usually fails.

It's interesting territory to say the least.

s

 

[gr8grace]

It is from the non-OSAS camps.

and I can't say that I am not sympathetic to their sights of being against sin and evil as I am also against same. That is beyond question to me and should be for every believer.



Well, you are then approaching the weakness of the Grace camps views.

I can not 'excuse' sin and evil on the basis of 'grace' nor can any of us. Excusing sin and evil merely AUTHORIZES same.



I am quite an expert on Grace. It has not led me to conclude that sin and evil are off the hook.

I will Get accused of teaching," Sin all you want then." Its not even worth my breath to try to defend that I do not. The thing is though, a Christian CAN live like Hell and still be saved. THAT IS GRACE.

And I'm sure you'll see that many would disagree with that basis.

and for the record, I would agree with your statement, just not how you get there.

To me believers who seek to condemn other believers to burn alive forever are committing just as bad of a sin as the believer they are seeking to condemn.

So mark up another dilemma.

The Christian who lives like hell, will have the worst moment of His life at the Judgement seat of Christ. He will feel the SHAME of not living in the Plan that God had for his life. And He will be a happy servant to the believer who lived in Gods plan for his life.

Not quite sure where you pulled that rabbit from....

Its amazing though, teach biblical grace and one sees people change. Grace changes people. Peoples striving to be good, usually fails.

It's interesting territory to say the least.

s

Interesting. Grace is hard for us to focus on, we are sinful creatures and sin focused. Learning Grace deals with the Sin issue.

The Rabbit you mentioned is the Fact that heaven is not equal, there are loser believers and winner believers. The King of kings and Lord of lords has kings and lords in His Kingdom. The lords are going to serve the kings in His kingdom. But its a system in which creatures have no sin nature and are happy to serve.

The majority of Christians will be loser believers, they wont believe the elementary principles of Christ.....2 key doctrines that most believers reject are faith alone in Christ and eternal security. If one does not even believe these "milk" doctrines, one has no chance to grow spiritually.

I believe that most people on this site are saved people but most have reverted back to religion,self righteousness,works and have made a CHOICE not to listen to true teaching.

We have rewards and benefits waiting for us in this life and in the future. Things that we cant even imagine. to stay in a lifestyle of Sin and miss out on those rewards, That is going to be the worst moment of a believers life.

 

[smaller]

Interesting. Grace is hard for us to focus on, we are sinful creatures and sin focused. Learning Grace deals with the Sin issue.

The Rabbit you mentioned is the Fact that heaven is not equal, there are loser believers and winner believers.

Losers in heaven would probably not be my favorite form of theology. I doubt very much that other believers are going to be my servant.

If anything the reverse is true, that I would be their servant. And that would not be an issue.

s

 

[gr8grace]

bump

 

[gr8grace]

Bump this one again, Eternal security is biblical fact folks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Bump this one again, Eternal security is biblical fact folks.

Yes.

Having faith, and continuing in our faith is how we are eternally secure. Faith is how we access eternal security.

Salvation is both eternal, and secure, because God's Word is sure. We access the sure promise of salvation by believing (trusting) in the blood of Christ to make us righteous before God. Stop trusting in the blood and you no longer have that blood ministering on your behalf in heaven to forgive your sins and make you righteous before God.

 

[gr8grace]

Bump this one again, Eternal security is biblical fact folks.

Yes.

Having faith, and continuing in our faith is how we are eternally secure. Faith is how we access eternal security.

Salvation is both eternal, and secure, because God's Word is sure. We access the sure promise of salvation by believing (trusting) in the blood of Christ to make us righteous before God. Stop trusting in the blood and you no longer have that blood ministering on your behalf in heaven to forgive your sins and make you righteous before God.

Post #23:

The Promise of God:

There is a great promise from God that the believer has eternal security. In Jude 24-25 a doxology is used at the end of the teaching to point to the fact that God will deliver on ALL of His promises.

Jude 24-25~~Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory blameless with great joy…” “To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory now and forever. Amen.”

By His Grace, God keeps on preventing us from falling. We do not keep our selves from falling.

He has said that He will Keep us from falling. Does God Change or take back what He has given? This is eternal security with Great Joy! No He will not change, God does not take back Gifts that He renders out. James 1:17 States that God is immutable, He can never change from His absolute perfection. He can never cancel out His Grace gift of salvation for the believer. Eph 2:8-9

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The perfect integrity of God cannot be canceled by the failure or renunciation of any believer living on earth according to 2 Timothy 2:11-13. God is faithful to His Word. If we died with Him as we have as believers, then we will live with Him forever. If we endure suffering for blessing, we will rule with Him as mature believers. If we deny Him by refusing to grow spiritually, He will not be able to convey rewards and blessings that spiritual growth always brings. Even though we may be unfaithful, disbelieving, or faithless following our salvation, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13)


The doctrine of eternal security is a blessed Gift from God and we should learn it and live it. But it is not about us. This doctrine is about God and His integrity.

Eternal security is based on Gods perfect and immutable integrity.God does NOT take back what He gives, ever! He does not and will not take back what He Gives.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All the scriptures you share are to the one who continues to trust in God. Faith is the power of God to keep us. Faith is our shield. No faith--no shield. No shield, no protection for the day of salvation.

"...an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1: NASB)

But you say we can lose the 'through faith' part and still be protected by God's power.



Show me the scripture that says a believer can never not continue to believe in Christ. That's the crux of the argument for me. I will show you several that warn believers not to stop believing in Christ, as if they can.

I don't get how you can look at plain words, "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12), and continue to think God will NOT deny the one who denies him. When you deny Christ you do not belong to him anymore that 'he can not deny himself' applies to you. Think about it.

 

[Elijah674]

All the scriptures you share are to the one who continues to trust in God. Faith is the power of God to keep us. Faith is our shield. No faith--no shield. No shield, no protection for the day of salvation.

"...an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1: NASB)

But you say we can lose the 'through faith' part and still be protected by God's power.



Show me the scripture that says a believer can never not continue to believe in Christ. That's the crux of the argument for me. I will show you several that warn believers not to stop believing in Christ, as if they can.

I don't get how you can look at plain words, "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12), and continue to think God will NOT deny the one who denies him. When you deny Christ you do not belong to him anymore that 'he can not deny himself' applies to you. Think about it.

That would sound like John in 1 John 2:6-7 did not know what he was talking about, huh?

--Elijah

 

[reba]

In the 50s I saw folks get saved about every week

I knew a man of God ,Johnny, who on his death bed was so scared because of the lack of teaching of grace... Over and over mom and dad told him, He (Jesus) paid the price We are covered by His blood.... the old what if I didnt' confess this or that plagued him so.... Johnny is in the arms of our Lord...and now at peace ... I wish he had the peace while here also..

We are more secure in the Lord then I grew up thinking/believing. Not knowing just how to phrase things I will try with this...

Seems to me if we do not seek to keep the faith or to walk in His path... Learning ever learning, growing ... reaching for the whole of the Word of God... we miss the high calling we must finish the race... As with our own kids we do not expect the same of each of them .... some excel at this some at that God knows us and He gives His kids better gifts....

Do we need to keep the faith yes are we covered by His Blood yes.... The older I become the more middle ground I see in the Lord..

 

[gr8grace]

All the scriptures you share are to the one who continues to trust in God. Faith is the power of God to keep us. Faith is our shield. No faith--no shield. No shield, no protection for the day of salvation.

"...an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1: NASB)

But you say we can lose the 'through faith' part and still be protected by God's power.



Show me the scripture that says a believer can never not continue to believe in Christ. That's the crux of the argument for me. I will show you several that warn believers not to stop believing in Christ, as if they can.

I don't get how you can look at plain words, "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12), and continue to think God will NOT deny the one who denies him. When you deny Christ you do not belong to him anymore that 'he can not deny himself' applies to you. Think about it.

You base salvation on faith right? So do I. So what part of the verse talks about faith?

If we deny Him by refusing to grow spiritually, He will not be able to convey rewards and blessings that spiritual growth always brings. Even though we may be unfaithful, disbelieving, or faithless following our salvation, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13) If we are faithless. Then what does He remain FAITHFUL to?

Think about it? I understand COMPLETELY what you want me to think about. Yes, you look at that verse as YOU removing yourself from Him. I understand that. I do not agree, because of verse 11.

verse 11 is a first class conditional clause. and IF we have died with Him. It is not an IF as we understand it in the English. It is a statement of surety, "if we have died with Him(AND WE HAVE.)" there is no changing that. We are a part of Him and it specifically refers to union with Him concerning His death on the Cross.

Why the Greek Jethro?

this is English.....I have quite a few and you have quite a lot. How can a few and a lot have the same meaning?

few~~ A small number of

A lot~~ to a very great degree or extent

I don't get how you can look at plain words, "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12), and continue to think God will NOT deny the one who denies him. When you deny Christ you do not belong to him anymore that 'he can not deny himself' applies to you. Think about it.

God will deny us rewards and rank. Specifically our REIGN with Him. It is a reward for the spiritually mature believer to REIGN with Christ.

11~~FAITHFUL . . . {IS} THE WORD/DOCTRINE.
"For you see . . .
if we have died with Him {Christ} - and we have -
at the same time also, we shall also live with Him, 12~~

if we endure suffering -and we do {in the spiritually mature Life}-
we shall also rule with Him {a spiritual maturity reward in
Eternity Future},

if we repudiate/deny/refuse Him -and we {some of us} do
{reversionism - rejecting bible teaching} - that same One
{Jesus} also will refuse/deny us {rewards in eternity
future, refer back to verse 12,"rule,reign)}, 13~~

if we {believers in carnality} are unfaithful/believe not {to/in
bible doctrine} - and we {some of us} do - He abides/
remains faithful"

For you see, He {Jesus} can not deny Himself
{we are in Union with Christ and are part of Him, refer back to verse 11( we HAVE died with Him)}.

 

[iLOVE]

I am so confident that I am God's beloved! He loves me just like He loves Jesus! God's love and victory for me go hand in hand. I triumph in God's LOVE!

Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me." Matthew 11:6 NIV