Hummm.....

[unred typo]

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
…….
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Paul is only saying we have here a written example of a case in point showing both Jews AND Gentiles not doing good. Paul is using this text to say, “How can you say Jews are better than Gentiles when we have proof that at the time of this passage’s writing, both were being evil?†If you go to the places where this is quoted from, you will see that this is the case. To turn this into an argument for total depravity of all mankind throughout history is a gross misuse of the text. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God but the people who repent and have faith that those who earnestly seek him will be rewarded, are counted righteous by God.

 

[lovely]

unred typo,

It is true that Paul was saying that both Jews and Gentiles are not doing good, nor can they in a lost state. By the same token, the Scripture does say that there is none righteous, and there is none who seek God. Both Jew and Gentile alike. I am simply saying that man does not seek God, and can not in His fallen state, and this Scripture supports that statement. I offered a simple analogy, that the sheep do not seek the Shepherd, He seeks them. I can use other Scriptures to support that statement, but this the one that came to mind when I was answering Drew.


unred typo wrote:

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God but the people who repent and have faith that those who earnestly seek him will be rewarded, are counted righteous by God.

I do not believe that this is supported by the verses since they say that we do not seek God in our fallen state. It is by God's gift of mercy, alone, that man is able to come to Him. This is God's provision through Christ. Abraham's imputed faith was counted as righteousness by God, but nothing of Arbraham was righteous. His faith was counted as righteousness because it is literally the wedding garment provided by the blood of Christ.

In Hebrews 12:2 we are taught that Jesus is the author, and finisher, of our faith. He is from where it originates, and He is the one who keeps it to the end. But, just before we read that we are told that we are being watched, and to lay aside every weight, and sin, that ensnares us, and run with endurance the race that is set before us. We can only do this, by looking to Jesus, and we know we can look to Him because He has authored our faith. The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

Lovely - I see the parable you quoted in a different light.

Those who were initially invited to the banquet were the Jews. They refused to come, rejecting the king.

His servants were sent out again, and again the people the king had chosen, refused and then turned on the king’s servants mistreating and killing them. The servants are the prophets. The kings wrath was then turned toward his subjects. It’s plain to see from scripture what happened to Israel in this respect.

So the king then sent servants out again and told them to invite anyone they could find, both good and bad. This represents salvation being made available to Jew & Gentile alike and not on the basis our worthiness.

The one who was not dressed in wedding clothes is perhaps the most telling element of this parable. This man was invited and the attendants let him in – even without wedding clothes. Kind of strange don’t you think to let someone in who wasn’t dressed in wedding clothes. Surely the attendants would have noticed. The fact that the man himself was speechless tells me he also actually thought that he was OK.

You see there are many who believe they are fit for the wedding feast. They have heard the message and so they respond. Outwardly they would appear to be like everyone else BUT they believe that righteousness is derived by what they do rather than by faith.

In truth, as the parable points out, many are called but few are chosen.

 

[lovely]

mutzrein,

I think there was a time when I would have wholeheartedly agreed with your explanation. However, I think there are a few problems with it.

First of all none, came with the first invitation. Now, we know that there are Jews who believe in Christ, and that there are gentiles who do not. So, it is hard for me to assume that this refers to the Jews. We know that there were many Jews who did love God, and have faith. Secondly, God declares those He first invites as unworthy, why would only the Jews be unworthy? That is why I believe it is a general call of the Gospel to the whole lost world, and they are not able to accept it.

The second invitation is to all on the highways and byways. This call can not be just to the gentiles, because we know that there are Jews who know Christ, and that there are many gentiles who do not. The second call, I think is effectual, because unworthy people answer it, and are brought in, and clothed in the wedding garments.

I think you are correct about the ejected man, he was trying to earn his way in by works, and refused the wedding garments. I think that the fact that the man was speechless is because he was convinced that he was worthy in his own garments, his own righteousness, and also because he was without excuse when the King asked him about it. I think this man represents those who are lukewarm. Those who will seemingly heed the call to all of us looking on, but really they do not in their spirits. They are hypocritical, and a greater slight against the King because they have the arrogance to come into His presence anyway. God says He will spew them (the lukewarm) out of His mouth, and He will be the only one who will recognize them because He sees the hearts of men. The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

My response in red - hope you don't mind me doing it this way

mutzrein,

I think there was a time when I would have wholeheartedly agreed with your explanation. However, I think there are a few problems with it.

First of all none, came with the first invitation.
Where does scripture say that? In fact our spiritual birth which scripture tells us is not achieved by human decision is not bestowed multiple times.

Now, we know that there are Jews who believe in Christ, and that there are gentiles who do not. So, it is hard for me to assume that this refers to the Jews. We know that there were many Jews who did love God, and have faith.
Yes of course we know that there are both Jews and gentiles who do and do not come to Christ. But scripture says that Jesus came to his own and his own received him not. It doesn’t mean that ALL Jews rejected him. That would be absurd. And in like manner when salvation came to the gentiles it doesn’t mean that ALL gentiles would come. ONLY those who were ‘compelled’ to come, came.

Secondly, God declares those He first invites as unworthy, why would only the Jews be unworthy?
The Jews were ‘unworthy’ as you put it, because they believed their righteousness came by what they did. They rejected the righteousness that comes by faith. They certainly don’t have this on their own but at this point of the parable it is not speaking of ALL.
It is speaking of those who were already invited.

That is why I believe it is a general call of the Gospel to the whole lost world, and they are not able to accept it.
I think I’ve covered this and just to clarify my position I don’t believe in a general call of the gospel to the whole lost world. To every nation, yes, but not to all of mankind.

The second invitation is to all on the highways and byways. This call can not be just to the gentiles, because we know that there are Jews who know Christ, and that there are many gentiles who do not.
I think I’ve covered this also. Correct me if I haven’t.

The second call, I think is effectual, because unworthy people answer it, and are brought in, and clothed in the wedding garments.
I don’t see anywhere where it suggests that these unworthy people had any ‘choice’ to make. They didn’t ‘answer’ the call as such. Scripture says that as many as were found were gathered together.
And this is another reason why I contend that this parable relates to events as I have outlined. Before Christ, God’s people (the Jews) already had relationship with God. So they already had the invitation. What they did with the invitation and to the messengers determined their outcome.
After Christ, there is no ‘invitation’. We are ‘compelled’ by virtue of the fact that our relationship to God is bestowed upon us in our unworthy state. Being born of God does not happen as the result of our ‘response’ to an invitation. When we are born of God it is without human decision and therefore we are ‘compelled’ to come to Him.
But I’m wondering now how you are interpreting these ‘calls’. There is nothing that I can see to suggest that some who were included in the first call are included in the second. Is that what you are suggesting? If you are then I would ask you to support it from scripture.

I think you are correct about the ejected man, he was trying to earn his way in by works, and refused the wedding garments.
Actually I don’t believe he refused the wedding garments. We are not told that. Certainly if he refused, then he would not have been allowed to enter. But I would accept that he would be one such as Paul was writing to in his letter to the Galatians. “After starting with the Spirit are you now trying to achieve your goal by human effort’? Self righteousness indeed. And this is the danger that we face. Churches are rife with those who have been born of God but have turned back to their own righteousness. Appearing to be doing all the right things - not because it is their nature but because they have been hoodwinked or bewitched into believing that they can get to heaven BECAUSE of what they do. This is why we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We need always to keep our eyes on Christ – to walk by faith

I think that the fact that the man was speechless is because he was convinced that he was worthy in his own garments, his own righteousness, and also because he was without excuse when the King asked him about it. I think this man represents those who are lukewarm. Those who will seemingly heed the call to all of us looking on, but really they do not in their spirits. They are hypocritical, and a greater slight against the King because they have the arrogance to come into His presence anyway. God says He will spew them (the lukewarm) out of His mouth, and He will be the only one who will recognize them because He sees the hearts of men. The Lord bless you.
I accept the blessing from you as another in Christ but respectfully disagree on your interpretation. I have rushed this a bit but will certainly carry on discussing if you wish and I have left something not said that needs to be.
And may the Lord bless you richly also.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:

It is true that Paul was saying that both Jews and Gentiles are not doing good, nor can they in a lost state. By the same token, the Scripture does say that there is none righteous, and there is none who seek God. Both Jew and Gentile alike. I am simply saying that man does not seek God, and can not in His fallen state, and this Scripture supports that statement. I offered a simple analogy, that the sheep do not seek the Shepherd, He seeks them. I can use other Scriptures to support that statement, but this the one that came to mind when I was answering Drew.

You’re missing the point. Paul’s argument in this chapter is to say that neither the Jews nor the Gentile are better simply because they are Jews or Gentiles. As the verse he quoted says, there were none righteous at that particular time in history, so the Jews could not brag that they were seeking God and the Gentiles were not.

Yes, you can find verses that say that the ungodly do not seek God and Jesus tells us this is because their deeds are evil but he also says that those who do good in truth come to the light because their deeds are done in God, who is love .John 3:21

David said it was the fool that didn’t seek God. He certainly did not count all men as fools and he himself sought God often. He clearly differentiated between the righteous who sought to know God and the wicked who refused to. He referred to those who were ungodly as children of men, or sons of men and called those who sought God, God‘s people or children of God, or the meek. At the time of Noah, there were none among the children of men that sought him except Noah who God said that he found him righteous. Notice that God found Noah seeking God and doing justly.

What David did not say was that all men everywhere do not seek God. There would be no point to Psa 10:4 “The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts.†if no man would ever seek after God. God would not have said of David that he was a man after his own heart if David did not seek him.
.
Here is a partial list of verses that clearly show that men can and do seek God and God is pleased by their attempts to walk in his ways:

Isa 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 27:8 [When thou saidst], Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.
Psa 34:10 The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good [thing].
Pro 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all [things].
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isa 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock [whence] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [whence] ye are digged.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
Amo 5:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:
Amo 5:14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
Mal 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Deu 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Psa 40:16 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.
Psa 69:32 The humble shall see [this, and] be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
Psa 83:16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.
Psa 105:3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.
Psa 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
Psa 119:2 Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
Psa 119:155 Salvation [is] far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
2Ch 31:21 And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, and in the law, and in the commandments, to seek his God, he did [it] with all his heart, and prospered.
2Ch 34:3 For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.
Ezr 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,
Ezr 7:10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do [it], and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
Ezr 8:22 For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God [is] upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath [is] against all them that forsake him.
Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Lovely wrote:

unred typo wrote: [quote:75c26]All have sinned and come short of the glory of God but the people who repent and have faith that those who earnestly seek him will be rewarded, are counted righteous by God.

I do not believe that this is supported by the verses since they say that we do not seek God in our fallen state. It is by God's gift of mercy, alone, that man is able to come to Him. This is God's provision through Christ. Abraham's imputed faith was counted as righteousness by God, but nothing of Arbraham was righteous. His faith was counted as righteousness because it is literally the wedding garment provided by the blood of Christ. [/quote:75c26]
But, Lovely, this is exactly what it says in Hebrews 11:6. The people who repent and have faith that those who earnestly seek him will be rewarded, are counted righteous by God.
“But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.†Where does it say that we do not seek God in our fallen state? Where does it say that nothing of Abraham was righteous? You have taken man’s theories and are forcing all of God’s word to align with these unreasonable, ungodly ideas. Abraham’s righteousness was according to his faith in God’s promise that if he would walk blamelessly before God, God would reward him. Yes, this salvation was nevertheless provided by the blood in mercy because whenever Abraham committed sins he offered sacrifices which God accepted, even though he could have just said, ’no deal, you broke our contract.’ (Genesis 17:1 -2)

Lovely wrote:

In Hebrews 12:2 we are taught that Jesus is the author, and finisher, of our faith. He is from where it originates, and He is the one who keeps it to the end. But, just before we read that we are told that we are being watched, and to lay aside every weight, and sin, that ensnares us, and run with endurance the race that is set before us. We can only do this, by looking to Jesus, and we know we can look to Him because He has authored our faith. The Lord bless you.

Yes, the offer of salvation through faith in the blood came to mankind from God through Christ. That makes him the author of this faith wherein we stand. He is the finisher because it is he who keeps us clean and as we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us. This does not mean it’s not our faith. He has provided us with a way to be perfect, by confession and repentance, and how shall we escape judgment if we neglect so great salvation? We must have faith that by doing what he told us to do, we will have eternal life.

You have decided that we can’t do anything of ourselves so you have gutted all the verses that say that we must. You have reinvented words like ‘faith’, ‘foreknowledge’, ‘law’, ‘grace’, and ‘works’ to fit your biased view. When Paul said, ‘I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me’, he was showing his faith in Christ to back him up when he put to death his selfish desires of the fleshly nature and chose to walk in love and humility as he did the work he was given to do.

 

[lovely]

mutzrein, and unred typo,

Thank you both for your responses to me. I read them over way to quickly because I have a long list of errands to run today out of my home. I will have to skip my serious computer time. I want to consider what you have written, and read my Bible to weigh it. I hope to respond tomorrow in a real way.

And, unred, please understand that just because I disagree with you does not mean that I am "gutting" Scripture, or allowing a religion to define my terms. I do not care to put anything above God's Word, or His guiding. I am not saying that I have not done that in the past, because I am guilty, but my prayer in my life, now, is that the Lord give me a teachable heart when I approach His Word. I am grateful to Him for granting it, and I have been freed by it. I truly do try and approach these discussions with an effort to learn from Scripture, and study it to find the truth, by God's grace, and not by means of my own self-righteousness. So, it is my desire to go where God leads me, and train my children to follow after me. It is obvious that you get very passionate, and I admire that, but please remember that on the other side of your computer I am a believer who loves God too. The Lord bless you today, both of you.

I should go, because I am tempted to get involved on the thread. :-D

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:

And, unred, please understand that just because I disagree with you does not mean that I am "gutting" Scripture, or allowing a religion to define my terms. I do not care to put anything above God's Word, or His guiding. I am not saying that I have not done that in the past, because I am guilty, but my prayer in my life, now, is that the Lord give me a teachable heart when I approach His Word. I am grateful to Him for granting it, and I have been freed by it. I truly do try and approach these discussions with an effort to learn from Scripture, and study it to find the truth, by God's grace, and not by means of my own self-righteousness. So, it is my desire to go where God leads me, and train my children to follow after me. It is obvious that you get very passionate, and I admire that, but please remember that on the other side of your computer I am a believer who loves God too. The Lord bless you today, both of you.

Please accept my apologies. I was out of line. I should not blame you as if you are personally responsible for what I see as ripping the heart and soul out of the words of life. I do believe that, like Saul, many are zealous to persecute this way and replace it with the stiff and lifeless laws of the false gospel that require the believing of exact terms and concepts that deny God’s mercy and choke the life blood of love that Jesus expressed in his word and walk.

Confusing terminology when paired with preconceived theories makes for increased frustration. Sometimes, I feel like these discussions are a throwback to old Abbott and Costello “who’s on first†routines. I wrote, “God chose those who would choose him.†and later read it and to my horror, found it could say just the opposite of my intended message. If you didn’t know my theology, you might read it to say that God picked certain people and caused them to choose him, instead of reading that God planned that anyone who freely decided to obey God, would be rewarded with the promises (adoption, eternal life, gifts of the Spirit, etc.) that God before ordained for the followers of Christ. Sometimes these difficulties get the better of me. :

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks lovely - no hurry. I have to step back into the real world every now and then too :wink: I look forward to your response.

 

[lovely]

mutzrein,

Thanks for waiting. As I read your response to me, though we disagree on the parable, it seems we agree on some other areas, unless I am mistaken.

Mutzrein wrote the quoted sections.

In fact our spiritual birth which scripture tells us is not achieved by human decision is not bestowed multiple times.

I agree with this statement, I just think that the Gospel call will go unaswered, unless the Holy Spirit compells one to a spiritual birth. So, I do not, in any way, believe in multiple spiritual births, but only one that is through the Spririt of God.

Yes of course we know that there are both Jews and gentiles who do and do not come to Christ. But scripture says that Jesus came to his own and his own received him not. It doesn’t mean that ALL Jews rejected him. That would be absurd. And in like manner when salvation came to the gentiles it doesn’t mean that ALL gentiles would come. ONLY those who were ‘compelled’ to come, came.

I agree with this, and the bolded area is a good point. I am going to look into this further. Of course, the first thing that strikes me is, can the parable be used to describe both? Is it about the actual people, and the individual heart?

The Jews were ‘unworthy’ as you put it, because they believed their righteousness came by what they did. They rejected the righteousness that comes by faith. They certainly don’t have this on their own but at this point of the parable it is not speaking of ALL.
It is speaking of those who were already invited.

I understand this, but isn't anyone who hears the Gospel invited? Is it not their self-rigtheousness that keeps them from repentance? I mean, when we all hear the Gospel, are we not going to reject it unless the Holy Spirit itervenes?

I don’t believe in a general call of the gospel to the whole lost world. To every nation, yes, but not to all of mankind.

Could you explain the difference to me in a more specific way so I am clear? And, would you agree that they are powerless to accept apart from the Spirit of God?

lovely wrote:
The second invitation is to all on the highways and byways. This call can not be just to the gentiles, because we know that there are Jews who know Christ, and that there are many gentiles who do not.

I think I’ve covered this also. Correct me if I haven’t.

I just want to try and clarify this. Are you saying that the first invitation was to the nation of Israel, and then the second invitation is to all nations? And if so, do you believe that the individual who believes, by means of the Holy Spirit, is not represented here?

I don’t see anywhere where it suggests that these unworthy people had any ‘choice’ to make. They didn’t ‘answer’ the call as such. Scripture says that as many as were found were gathered together.
And this is another reason why I contend that this parable relates to events as I have outlined. Before Christ, God’s people (the Jews) already had relationship with God. So they already had the invitation. What they did with the invitation and to the messengers determined their outcome.
After Christ, there is no ‘invitation’. We are ‘compelled’ by virtue of the fact that our relationship to God is bestowed upon us in our unworthy state. Being born of God does not happen as the result of our ‘response’ to an invitation. When we are born of God it is without human decision and therefore we are ‘compelled’ to come to Him.
But I’m wondering now how you are interpreting these ‘calls’. There is nothing that I can see to suggest that some who were included in the first call are included in the second. Is that what you are suggesting? If you are then I would ask you to support it from scripture.

Okay, let me clarify here. I believe that we come only by the compelling of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe we make a decision either. So, in that regard I think we agree. I think that as far as the parable goes, I am saying that the first invited guests is the Gospel to all or as you say to every Nation, a general call, but the second is the Holy Spirit compelling the believer, an effectual call...basically, the call that can not be resisted. The gathering of believers.

Actually I don’t believe he refused the wedding garments. We are not told that. Certainly if he refused, then he would not have been allowed to enter. But I would accept that he would be one such as Paul was writing to in his letter to the Galatians. “After starting with the Spirit are you now trying to achieve your goal by human effort’? Self righteousness indeed. And this is the danger that we face. Churches are rife with those who have been born of God but have turned back to their own righteousness. Appearing to be doing all the right things - not because it is their nature but because they have been hoodwinked or bewitched into believing that they can get to heaven BECAUSE of what they do. This is why we are exhorted to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We need always to keep our eyes on Christ – to walk by faith

We are told that the King asks him where his garments are, so it is made clear that he did not have them on. For some reason, he did not feel he need them. Now, I agree with the rest of what you have written, absolutely. Are you saying that this last part is speaking to the churches only, and not the individual, or both?

I think that we agree more than I thought we did. I am unclear on a few things, though. I don't know if this is a matter of defining terms, or if it is disagreement. I certainly see more to that parable than as it refers to the Jew and Gentiles alone, though, and I know that on that point we do disagree. Thanks for your response to me once again, and the Lord bless you today.

 

[lovely]

Unred typo,

Thank you for your reply to me, it was very gracious of you to apologize. I completely understand your post, and have felt that frustration too at times. The Lord bless you.


Back to the topic

Unred typo wrote:

You’re missing the point. Paul’s argument in this chapter is to say that neither the Jews nor the Gentile are better simply because they are Jews or Gentiles. As the verse he quoted says, there were none righteous at that particular time in history, so the Jews could not brag that they were seeking God and the Gentiles were not.

I understand the context in Romans 3 in which Paul was applying these Scriptures, but I do not think that this is the only application of them. Lets look at them.

Psalm 14:1-3 1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 53:1-3

1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.

3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.


The fool is the Godless (we all begin this way) The first three verses speak to the need for salvation, and the last four, that Paul did not quote, speak to God bringing His people out of that bondage in both chapters. I think that this can be applied today, and everyday, until God returns.

Unred typo wrote:

Yes, you can find verses that say that the ungodly do not seek God and Jesus tells us this is because their deeds are evil but he also says that those who do good in truth come to the light because their deeds are done in God, who is love .John 3:21

John 3 This is the chapter where Nicodemus comes to Christ, and ends up asking how a man can be born again.

John 3:5-10
Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless a man is born of the water, and of the Spirit, he can not enter the Kingdom of God. This is the spiritual cleansing that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word, at the point of salvation, making a soul fit for the Kingdom of God.

Then, Jesus goes on to compare this working of the Holy Spirit to the wind. It blows where it wishes, but it can not be understood, but the effects are those who are born again. Jesus says to Nicodemus that given his position, he should have already understood these things, but Nicodemus was in need of the Spirit of God to understand, and believe.

He explains, then, that He is able to talk of Heavenly things, because He was there, and than he refers to the serpent that Moses lifted up to heal the poeple, and so He would be lifted up upon the cross to heal those who believe. But, we must refer back on how those people will believe, by the Spirit through the Word. Jesus understood this because He was God. His purpose was to die for the lost sinner that belived through the Spirit, and grant them eternal life. God sent Him to do this because of His great love.

John 3:18-21

This section talks about those who are no longer condemned, those who believe. How did they believe? By the Spirit through the Word. But, he who does not believe is condemned. Why? Because He does not believe on the Son of God. Then, he goes on to explain what that condemnation is. This shows us why man is guilty. Light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil. Why? They did not want their deeds exposed. But He who does the truth comes to the light. Who are these that do the truth. Those who are not condemned. Who are those who are not condemned? Those who believe. Who are those who believe? Those who are born again by the Spirit through the Word. These come to the light. Why? Because what they do in truth, is done in God by way of their belief by the working of the Holy Spirit through Christ, the Word.

Unred typo wrote:

David said it was the fool that didn’t seek God. He certainly did not count all men as fools and he himself sought God often. He clearly differentiated between the righteous who sought to know God and the wicked who refused to. He referred to those who were ungodly as children of men, or sons of men and called those who sought God, God‘s people or children of God, or the meek. At the time of Noah, there were none among the children of men that sought him except Noah who God said that he found him righteous. Notice that God found Noah seeking God and doing justly

. The fools are those who do not believe, and therefore do not seek God. David sought God in faith, which is the only way we can seek God. Noah's belief was counted for righteousness, and we know that He came to belief through the Spirit, as David did, and his seeking of God, and doing of good works followed that belief. The good that they did, they did in God, as those who were not condemned. Hebrews 11 shows us that all of this was by faith, or belief, by the Holy Spirit through the Word, Christ.

Unred typo wrote:

What David did not say was that all men everywhere do not seek God. There would be no point to Psa 10:4 “The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts.†if no man would ever seek after God. God would not have said of David that he was a man after his own heart if David did not seek him.

David did say that in no one seeks God in Psalm 14, and Psalm 53. These are the fools, but there are those who are not wicked, those who are clothed in righteousness because of belief through the Holy Spirit by the Word. Yes, in light of his belief, David did seek God, as well as many others. They sought His face, His precepts, His Mercy, His Help, His forgiveness, and so on, because of their belief. We know that the fool does not, because of his own pride, and unbelief.

The Sciptures that you quoted, I believe, should all be viewed in the light that those who believe, are those who seek. I want to address Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. I think this verse actually shows that those who have faith, and belief, seek Him. They obtained faith, and belief, by the Holy Spirit through the Word, as I discussed earlier in this post. Then, were they able to seek Him dilligently. We must believe that God is the God of Scripture, and that He will reward those who believe in Him. Outside of that it is impossible to please Him, and only in the framework of our belief are we able to do good works for God. Belief is the effect of the Holy Spirit, and works done for God are the effects of belief. (including seeking Him dilligently)

I tried to respond in a thorough manner. I must end here due to time constraints. The Lord bless you, today.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:

The fool is the Godless (we all begin this way) The first three verses speak to the need for salvation, and the last four, that Paul did not quote, speak to God bringing His people out of that bondage in both chapters. I think that this can be applied today, and everyday, until God returns.

Actually, I didn’t start out saying God doesn’t exist. My first words were “waaaaaaahhhhâ€Â, being interpreted, “ there art poo within my pants†or “I’m starving here, feed me forthwith else I dieâ€Â, (it is difficult to translate into English.) The scripture says that Jesus lights every man: John 1:9. Since he died for all, that would mean that all have been set free from sin’s original curse, wouldn’t it? (I’m just exploring that concept. It needs work.)

Lovely wrote:

Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless a man is born of the water, and of the Spirit, he can not enter the Kingdom of God. This is the spiritual cleansing that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word, at the point of salvation, making a soul fit for the Kingdom of God.
Then, Jesus goes on to compare this working of the Holy Spirit to the wind. It blows where it wishes, but it can not be understood, but the effects are those who are born again. Jesus says to Nicodemus that given his position, he should have already understood these things, but Nicodemus was in need of the Spirit of God to understand, and believe.

There are a lot of terms here that could be defined in different ways. There is the ‘kingdom of God,’ there is being ‘born of the spirit’ and ‘born of water’…none of which Jesus clearly defines for us in these passages. Jesus called these concepts, ‘earthy things,’ and alluded to ‘heavenly things’, which mystifies me somewhat. Jesus doesn’t tell Nicodemus that he needs the Holy Spirit in order to understand these things, but states that he should surely already know them. Except a man be born again, he cannot see ( behold, lay eyes on, look at ) the kingdom of God and except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, but to know what it takes to enter into the kingdom should be elementary for those who study and teach the scriptures, according to Jesus.

Lovely wrote:

He explains, then, that He is able to talk of Heavenly things, because He was there, and than he refers to the serpent that Moses lifted up to heal the poeple, and so He would be lifted up upon the cross to heal those who believe. But, we must refer back on how those people will believe, by the Spirit through the Word. Jesus understood this because He was God. His purpose was to die for the lost sinner that belived through the Spirit, and grant them eternal life. God sent Him to do this because of His great love.

Why must we “refer back on how those people will believe, by the Spirit through the Word†? Jesus didn’t say that Nic couldn’t believe until the Spirit caused him to understand it. It makes a nice neat little box for your god but it’s not explained like that here if you ask me.

Lovely wrote:

This section talks about those who are no longer condemned, those who believe. How did they believe? By the Spirit through the Word. But, he who does not believe is condemned. Why? Because He does not believe on the Son of God. Then, he goes on to explain what that condemnation is. This shows us why man is guilty. Light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil. Why? They did not want their deeds exposed. But He who does the truth comes to the light. Who are these that do the truth. Those who are not condemned. Who are those who are not condemned? Those who believe. Who are those who believe? Those who are born again by the Spirit through the Word. These come to the light. Why? Because what they do in truth, is done in God by way of their belief by the working of the Holy Spirit through Christ, the Word.

Well, it says that “every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved,†but “he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.†Notice it doesn’t say, “all men hate the light until they are reborn of the Spirit.†Notice that it doesn’t say “those that have never sinned come to the light.†Notice it doesn’t say, “Those who are born again by the Spirit through the Word come to the light.†It simply says that “those who do truth come to the light.†Jesus said if he be lifted up, he would draw all men unto himself. Though it is his will that none should perish, as he lamented over Jerusalem, they will not all come to him that they might have life.

Lovely wrote:

The fools are those who do not believe, and therefore do not seek God. David sought God in faith, which is the only way we can seek God. Noah's belief was counted for righteousness, and we know that He came to belief through the Spirit, as David did, and his seeking of God, and doing of good works followed that belief. The good that they did, they did in God, as those who were not condemned. Hebrews 11 shows us that all of this was by faith, or belief, by the Holy Spirit through the Word, Christ.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Read it again. The word ‘faith’ is connected to the word ’believe’ and the two things that we must believe in order to please God are 1. that he exists and 2. that he will reward those who earnestly seek him. What does your doctrine teach? That no one pleases him, no one seeks him and he rewards those who hate the light and do evil. What’s wrong with this picture? I’d drop that doctrine like a hot rock if I were you.

Lovely wrote:

The Sciptures that you quoted, I believe, should all be viewed in the light that those who believe, are those who seek.

I also believe that the scriptures should be viewed in the light that those who believe are those who seek, because if you truly believe that God exists and you believe that he is not unreachable or unreasonable, and that he will reward those who seek him, you will seek him if you are not some kind of fool. If you believe that God rewards those who hate him and do evil by making them born of the Spirit for no apparent reason and through no good that they do, you could just go on doing as much evil as you want until God calls you (if he’s going to.) Jesus said you would know false teachers by the fruit of their doctrines. This fruit looks like a wicked evil crop to me. Why don’t you plant a new tree?

 

[lovely]

Unred typo,

I simply do not believe that I achieve any good outside of God, and the good that I do is because of Him, and it is counted as righteousness because of the faith He has granted me. I do not see any way that one can earn their salvation, and I do not find any evidence of that in Scripture anywhere...in fact, Scripture teaches otherwise. If someone does not have the Holy Spirit in his/her soul, and has not been washed in the blood of the Lamb, then they are not a believer. I can say that because Scripture teaches it when read in context, and all other Scriptures relate to that truth. I believe the Gospel, as Paul taught it, and reject any who tell me to depart from it.

I am not an Open Theist. I do not reject the attributes of God as He has clearly lined out in Scripture. I do not reject His Word, or pick what I think supports my beliefs, and twist it to look nothing like the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I do not minimize the meaningfulness of prayer as it relates to my own helplessness, and God's sheer mercy in my life through Sovereign design. I am not sure if you are one, but some of your posts sound as if you are, and that doctrine, though appealing to man, humanizes God in such a way that it distorts who He says He is in His Word. You must read Scripture in context, and the Old Testament in light of the New. Open Theists fail to do this, and perhaps it is because they deny the work of the Holy Spirit, and it's drawing in the life of a believer. And for others who may read this, I am not speaking of Arminians who I know adhere to a Classical Theism.

I am not sure if you are, or not, but the idea of deserving something other than Hell, or earning salvation though some human merit, is not Biblical. These are things that Open Theists tend to support, directly, or indirectly. Even if they do not openly say it, it is the consequence of their philosophy. I say philosophy because it is their intellect that has conjured up their religion, rather than Scripture. I am not usually so strong, but you have asked me to deny God's truth, and have written it off as false doctrine, and Paul specifically says to be careful of this, and reject it outright.

I do not intend to hurt you, but I can not pretend to agree, or tolerate, something that I know is man-centered. If I am wrong about your doctrine, I apologize, but this is the impression I have by the way that you have represented yourself here, and in other posts I have read in this forum. I pray the Lord's blessings upon you today.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:

I simply do not believe that I achieve any good outside of God, and the good that I do is because of Him, and it is counted as righteousness because of the faith He has granted me. I do not see any way that one can earn their salvation, and I do not find any evidence of that in Scripture anywhere...in fact, Scripture teaches otherwise. If someone does not have the Holy Spirit in his/her soul, and has not been washed in the blood of the Lamb, then they are not a believer. I can say that because Scripture teaches it when read in context, and all other Scriptures relate to that truth. I believe the Gospel, as Paul taught it, and reject any who tell me to depart from it.

Why do you seemingly reject the gospels of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Why do you seem to single Paul out as teaching another gospel or a superior gospel?

It is absolutely true that without the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, no one could ever be saved. If you think for a moment that I believe that by good works or holy living I could say I deserved eternal life, you are mistaken. There is no reason that God has to save me or anyone else. He created us and none of us are perfect in obedience to him, so all have sinned and for that, deserve hell. It is only that he loved me and gave himself for me that I have any chance of redemption. He has graciously extended the invitation to follow his narrow path to eternal life, which I endeavor to do.

Lovely wrote:

I am not an Open Theist. I do not reject the attributes of God as He has clearly lined out in Scripture. I do not reject His Word, or pick what I think supports my beliefs, and twist it to look nothing like the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I do not minimize the meaningfulness of prayer as it relates to my own helplessness, and God's sheer mercy in my life through Sovereign design. I am not sure if you are one, but some of your posts sound as if you are, and that doctrine, though appealing to man, humanizes God in such a way that it distorts who He says He is in His Word. You must read Scripture in context, and the Old Testament in light of the New. Open Theists fail to do this, and perhaps it is because they deny the work of the Holy Spirit, and it's drawing in the life of a believer. And for others who may read this, I am not speaking of Arminians who I know adhere to a Classical Theism.

I do not reject the attributes of God as they are clearly lined out in scripture either. I believe the omniscient God knows all there is that can possibly be known, including the number of hairs on every head and every thought and every intent of every heart. I believe he knows every event of the past and every thought ever thought (say that 5 times fast) :-D in any conscious mind in any part of his creation.
I don’t believe there exists a place or phenomenon called the ‘future.’ I believe there is nothing to know except things that God has planned to happen, and they only exist as his plans or prophesies until their implementation in real time. I think he can deduce from his own design and past experiences what will most likely occur, even though a free will action can not be foretold with certainty. I believe he can affect our wills to do his bidding and nothing can thwart his plans unless he allows it. I believe that his wisdom and power are so superior to ours that there is nothing impossible for him to do that is logically possible to do, including some things that we can not logically fathom.
I believe God is love, life, spirit, one, holy, sovereign, all wise, all powerful and knows absolute truth. I believe that God is a consuming fire, and light and truth, whether that is literal or figurative, God only knows. If I left out anything biblical, let me know. :wink:

Lovely wrote:

I am not sure if you are, or not, but the idea of deserving something other than Hell, or earning salvation though some human merit, is not Biblical. These are things that Open Theists tend to support, directly, or indirectly. Even if they do not openly say it, it is the consequence of their philosophy. I say philosophy because it is their intellect that has conjured up their religion, rather than Scripture. I am not usually so strong, but you have asked me to deny God's truth, and have written it off as false doctrine, and Paul specifically says to be careful of this, and reject it outright. I do not intend to hurt you, but I can not pretend to agree, or tolerate, something that I know is man-centered. If I am wrong about your doctrine, I apologize, but this is the impression I have by the way that you have represented yourself here, and in other posts I have read in this forum. I pray the Lord's blessings upon you today.

I guess you don’t want to discuss what truth of God’s word I have asked you to deny. Or what doctrine that I hold to that Paul has forbidden you to hear. :o
I don’t take offence that you have accused me of such a wretched, dastardly deed, since I believe you to be sincerely trying to follow God’s word and truly believe I have expressed some horrific, heretical ideas, which according to official dogma, I most surely have but only so far as they have departed from the truth and so far as I have not perfectly understood all mysteries. Thank you for your blessing. May God grant you more understanding into his truth.

 

[lovely]

Unred wrote:

Why do you seemingly reject the gospels of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Why do you seem to single Paul out as teaching another gospel or a superior gospel?

It is absolutely true that without the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, no one could ever be saved. If you think for a moment that I believe that by good works or holy living I could say I deserved eternal life, you are mistaken. There is no reason that God has to save me or anyone else. He created us and none of us are perfect in obedience to him, so all have sinned and for that, deserve hell. It is only that he loved me and gave himself for me that I have any chance of redemption. He has graciously extended the invitation to follow his narrow path to eternal life, which I endeavor to do.

Scripture is Scripture, I do not reject any of it, and have only stated that I believe ALL Scripture.

I am happy to know that you do not feel you can earn your salvation, but I admit your last post seemed to indicate otherwise. I understood you to say that those who do good works come to the light in the sense that you believe that we come to the light because of our good works, and not our faith. Is this what you are saying, or do you agree that we do good works only through our faith? (Nevermind on how we obtain faith, which I know we do not agree on.) If you are saying this, then that is a works based salvation, and it is false. If you are not, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. We are only righteous by faith, and the good that we do, we do in God alone. That is what the passage says.

Unred wrote:

I do not reject the attributes of God as they are clearly lined out in scripture either. I believe the omniscient God knows all there is that can possibly be known, including the number of hairs on every head and every thought and every intent of every heart. I believe he knows every event of the past and every thought ever thought (say that 5 times fast) in any conscious mind in any part of his creation.
I don’t believe there exists a place or phenomenon called the ‘future.’ I believe there is nothing to know except things that God has planned to happen, and they only exist as his plans or prophesies until their implementation in real time. I think he can deduce from his own design and past experiences what will most likely occur, even though a free will action can not be foretold with certainty. I believe he can affect our wills to do his bidding and nothing can thwart his plans unless he allows it. I believe that his wisdom and power are so superior to ours that there is nothing impossible for him to do that is logically possible to do, including some things that we can not logically fathom.
I believe God is love, life, spirit, one, holy, sovereign, all wise, all powerful and knows absolute truth. I believe that God is a consuming fire, and light and truth, whether that is literal or figurative, God only knows. If I left out anything biblical, let me know.

I am not sure I agree with all of this in terms of wording, but I will take it at face value. I believe that God is all-knowing, and that future exists only in our understanding, but that God is outside of time. I am assuming that you deny being an open theist.

Unred, if you are Arminian, then I do not agree, but I do not hold this up as a doctrine that denys the truth of Scripture. I see how Arminian's support their doctrine of man having free will, and at the same time God having an All-Knowing ability. I also understand why they believe one can loose their salvation, and yet not earn their way to Heaven. I do not agree with these arguments, but I understand them in light of Scripture. However, open theism is a direct result of denying the Word of God, and humanizing God by stripping Him of all the attributes He says He has Himself.


Unred typo wrote:

I guess you don’t want to discuss what truth of God’s word I have asked you to deny. Or what doctrine that I hold to that Paul has forbidden you to hear.
I don’t take offence that you have accused me of such a wretched, dastardly deed, since I believe you to be sincerely trying to follow God’s word and truly believe I have expressed some horrific, heretical ideas, which according to official dogma, I most surely have but only so far as they have departed from the truth and so far as I have not perfectly understood all mysteries. Thank you for your blessing. May God grant you more understanding into his truth.

The truth that I thought you were asking me to deny is that we are saved by faith and not works. If you were not asking me to deny that, then I apologize for misunderstanding you once again, but I gathered that by the post before this one. Understanding the mysteries of God is not for us, and I would never hold that against anyone. I hope that God does grant me more of His truth everyday. The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

Lovely - I will have to address these one by one. Sorry, I'm lacking in time to address the whole post so hope you don't mind this approach.

In fact our spiritual birth which scripture tells us is not achieved by human decision is not bestowed multiple times.

I agree with this statement, I just think that the Gospel call will go unaswered, unless the Holy Spirit compells one to a spiritual birth. So, I do not, in any way, believe in multiple spiritual births, but only one that is through the Spririt of God.

Yes I absolutely agree that one cannot be born again without the ‘compelling’ of the Holy Spirit. But I am saying more than that. I am saying that the ‘compelling’ (for want of a better word) is without human decision at all.

What I mean by this is this. When we were born of the flesh, it was our parents who decided to give life to us. We had absolutely no choice in the matter. And so it is with our spiritual birth. We, having been predestined to be given life, were merely waiting for the spirit to be imparted. The seed was sown and after gestation (at the right time) we were born. This is ALL God’s doing.

Now, some believe that it is our choice to accept the gift of life after hearing the gospel and therefore those who reject it (and who die in this state) will go to hell because of that rejection. Now there are two issues I contend with here. 1, that we reject the gospel and 2, that those who reject it, go to hell.

I don’t accept either of these because 1, Since we know that being born of the spirit has nothing to do with human decision we can neither accept nor reject the Spirit. and 2, since the gospel is not rejected, we remain in a state of sin (without life) so we are not punished eternally. We perish, as scripture states.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Speaking of birthright - Jacob I love, Esau I hate! Why? Because, he didn't consider God's birthright, Laws, The Spirit of It to be worth anything!?! That was his decision? And Even though Jacob the Supplanter cohersted his brother out of it, he valued it, for what it was! Maybe thats it!?!

 

[lovely]

Mutzrein:

Yes I absolutely agree that one cannot be born again without the ‘compelling’ of the Holy Spirit. But I am saying more than that. I am saying that the ‘compelling’ (for want of a better word) is without human decision at all.

I agree with this.

Mutzrein:

I don’t accept either of these because 1, Since we know that being born of the spirit has nothing to do with human decision we can neither accept nor reject the Spirit. and 2, since the gospel is not rejected, we remain in a state of sin (without life) so we are not punished eternally. We perish, as scripture states.

I see where you stand on this. I'm not sure if we agree on 1 or not. I do believe that we can not accept the Gospel in a fallen state, because of our fallen nature. We can not choose to be raised from the dead by God. I also believe that we DO reject it because of our fallen nature, and our willingness to sin freely. The reason I say reject, is because we know that man is without excuse, and that he loves sin, and despises God while in an unrepentant state. Romans 2 speaks about the law of God being written on the hearts of men, and that their conscience bears witness of this unwritten law, and their thoughts either excuse, or accuse, according to their state. I will say, though, that they MUST reject it, and that they desire to reject it, but in the sense that they MUST, there is no choice. I am sorry if that sounds confusing, but I do not want to appear to excuse man's sin, and love of sin, in his fallen nature.

As far as being punished eternally, It also says in Romans that man stores up wrath, and will be punished according to his works. I don't know how that gels with a final end. There seems to be levels of punishment, according to deeds, in the day of judgement. Then, in Revelation we know that the antichrist, the beast, will both be cast into a lake of Fire, and that those whose names are not in the Book of Life will follow. Rev. 20 and 21 How do you see the Great White Throne of Judgement? And, what do you make of the, according to their deeds, part? Does this not suggest levels of punishment? The Lord bless you.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote:

Scripture is Scripture, I do not reject any of it, and have only stated that I believe ALL Scripture.

I’m glad to hear that. Maybe this post will test the validity of your claim…or not.

Lovely wrote:

I am happy to know that you do not feel you can earn your salvation, but I admit your last post seemed to indicate otherwise. I understood you to say that those who do good works come to the light in the sense that you believe that we come to the light because of our good works, and not our faith. Is this what you are saying, or do you agree that we do good works only through our faith? (Nevermind on how we obtain faith, which I know we do not agree on.) If you are saying this, then that is a works based salvation, and it is false. If you are not, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. We are only righteous by faith, and the good that we do, we do in God alone. That is what the passage says.

John 3:20 ‘For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.’ I understand this verse, but I’m not sure what you mean. Please explain with an example of a good work done in faith and one done without faith.

Lovely wrote:

I am not sure I agree with all of this in terms of wording, but I will take it at face value. I believe that God is all-knowing, and that future exists only in our understanding, but that God is outside of time. I am assuming that you deny being an open theist.

I don’t know what I would be labeled officially, if anything. I just read the Bible and literally just believe it. If I find a conflict, I pray about it and then I reconcile it the best way I know how. I don’t want to subscribe to one group or another because I don’t think it’s necessary to be ‘of Apollo’ or ’of Peter’ or ’of Paul,’ but only ‘of Christ Jesus.’

Lovely wrote:

Unred, if you are Arminian, then I do not agree, but I do not hold this up as a doctrine that denys the truth of Scripture. I see how Arminian's support their doctrine of man having free will, and at the same time God having an All-Knowing ability. I also understand why they believe one can loose their salvation, and yet not earn their way to Heaven. I do not agree with these arguments, but I understand them in light of Scripture. However, open theism is a direct result of denying the Word of God, and humanizing God by stripping Him of all the attributes He says He has Himself.

I would not want to take anything away from God, or add anything to him beyond what he says of himself. I don’t like labels because the Armenians believe this, this, this and this, and I believe this, this, this and that. The Calvinists believe this, this, this and this, and it has to be that way and I believe all that but it has to be this way. Why confuse things with another label? Why teach things that cause dissention? Is our salvation dependant on knowing some facts? Do we have faith in Christ or in facts about him?


Lovely wrote:

The truth that I thought you were asking me to deny is that we are saved by faith and not works. If you were not asking me to deny that, then I apologize for misunderstanding you once again, but I gathered that by the post before this one. Understanding the mysteries of God is not for us, and I would never hold that against anyone. I hope that God does grant me more of His truth everyday. The Lord bless you.

OK. We hate these. They never work but we just keep trying them anyway. Here’s a simple (ha!) analogy of how faith and works and grace are so connected that they can not be separated:

If you are trapped in a burning building, and I know the only way out is through a trap door passageway so I call you on your cell phone and give you the directions to find it, which you follow step by step and are saved, did I save you or did the cell phone save you or did the directions I gave you save you or did your obedience in following the directions save you or did your faith in my directions save you or did your actual walking and opening the trapdoor and stepping in save you or did the man who graciously provided for your future emergency and built the exit trapdoor save you? Was it faith in believing what I told you, or was it the works of walking it out or was it the fact that the salvation exit was available at all? If you didn’t believe me, you wouldn’t have followed my directions. If you didn't actually use the directions to get out, they wouldn't save you. If there were no trapdoor at all, you would have burnt up and nothing could save you.

I think the whole grace versus faith versus works is a useless discussion that brings dissention and causes us to focus on things that don’t matter and confuse the real issue. Yes, we’re saved by faith in Christ whose death made it possible for those who believe in his name to be born again and to inherit eternal life, but all those words are not just typed words to be read and discussed. What do those words mean? Are we saved by Christ, by grace, by faith, by following him, by believing in him, by believing in his name, by obeying the gospel or exactly what? You can’t separate the meaning of the words from the words themselves and keep the gospel message intact because the words are all interconnected to complete the message.

Christ is the exit door in the floor built by his Father. The cell phone, the call, the directions are all those who get the gospel message to you. The walk of faith, the opening the door and walking in obedience down it, are your works. If you want to add the works of the law to this story, it would be the locked door that would take you outside but it’s surrounded in fire and because of the frailty of your flesh, won’t work for you.

Now I know some idiot who doesn’t have a clue as to how to use an analogy is going to try to subvert the whole thing and give you a super hero with a chainsaw to carry your lifeless body out through a newly sawn window but that is just because they don’t have the understanding of a gnat in using illustrations. Finding the point at which an analogy breaks down and using it to destroy the thing, shows ignorance.( I would accept input to hone the story to fit the Bible but not unnecessary parts of it.)

The fact is that the full gospel is composed with all these elements: salvation, faith, grace, belief, works of faith, and the work of God. If we insist on analyzing these concepts, we must reconcile all of the facets of the gospel without doing damage to any of them.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutzrein:

Yes I absolutely agree that one cannot be born again without the ‘compelling’ of the Holy Spirit. But I am saying more than that. I am saying that the ‘compelling’ (for want of a better word) is without human decision at all.

I agree with this.

Mutzrein:
[quote:337eb]I don’t accept either of these because 1, Since we know that being born of the spirit has nothing to do with human decision we can neither accept nor reject the Spirit. and 2, since the gospel is not rejected, we remain in a state of sin (without life) so we are not punished eternally. We perish, as scripture states.

I see where you stand on this. I'm not sure if we agree on 1 or not. I do believe that we can not accept the Gospel in a fallen state, because of our fallen nature. We can not choose to be raised from the dead by God. I also believe that we DO reject it because of our fallen nature, and our willingness to sin freely. The reason I say reject, is because we know that man is without excuse, and that he loves sin, and despises God while in an unrepentant state. Romans 2 speaks about the law of God being written on the hearts of men, and that their conscience bears witness of this unwritten law, and their thoughts either excuse, or accuse, according to their state. I will say, though, that they MUST reject it, and that they desire to reject it, but in the sense that they MUST, there is no choice. I am sorry if that sounds confusing, but I do not want to appear to excuse man's sin, and love of sin, in his fallen nature.

Alright, lets put it this way.
Q. What is our state before being born of the Spirit. I say we are dead (in trespasses and sin).
Q. What is it then, that gives us life? I say, the Spirit of God.
Now if we are dead, how can we accept the Spirit of God? And likewise if we are dead, how can we reject the Spirit of God. On both counts we can’t . . . because we are dead.

Of course, we are dwelling in the flesh and by virtue of the intellect we have, we say we have the ability to accept or reject things. But this is not the same. We are talking about two different things. One is the flesh (the intellect) and one is the Spirit.
The intellect cannot comprehend the things of the Spirit – it is foolishness to him.
And that which he cannot comprehend of course he cannot accept. So remember, this decision (which is a forgone conclusion) is only an intellectual decision. Man may THINK he rejects or accepts things of the Spirit, but in reality, without the Spirit he will never be able to accept it.

So you see, he cannot even repent without first being given the Spirit of God. If he hasn’t received the Spirit what is he going to repent from? And unto what? Repentance is granted to those who are God’s children.

And I’m pleased that you have brought up Romans 2, because this is another key to man’s relationship with God. Unfortunately many interpret it wrongly as applying to ‘all men’. In fact it doesn’t. It only applies to those who are born the Spirit of God – who have the law written on their hearts.

As far as being punished eternally, It also says in Romans that man stores up wrath, and will be punished according to his works. I don't know how that gels with a final end. There seems to be levels of punishment, according to deeds, in the day of judgement. Then, in Revelation we know that the antichrist, the beast, will both be cast into a lake of Fire, and that those whose names are not in the Book of Life will follow. Rev. 20 and 21 How do you see the Great White Throne of Judgement? And, what do you make of the, according to their deeds, part? Does this not suggest levels of punishment? The Lord bless you.

What I believe is this – and again you are quoting Romans and Paul of course is addressing those who have received the Spirit of God – not all men. Those to whom much has been given, much will be required. So, those to whom the gift of life has been given – that is they have been born into God’s family – they are accountable for the gift. Some to eternal reward and some to eternal damnation.

So again I contend, those who have not been given the gift of life, perish. And this demonstrates God’s righteousness in that he does not condemn anyone to eternal punishment for not having ‘received’ something that only He can enable receipt of.

Now I’m not wanting to get into Revelations because I see many people speaking about it as a matter of fact when I believe that there is yet much to be revealed as to its meaning. And I’m not talking about revelation derived from an intellectual study. I’m talking about revelation by the Spirit of God. Of course there are some things that I have views about but all I KNOW is, what God has revealed to me and I stand on it unwaveringly.

The Lord bless you

[/quote:337eb]