Hummm.....

[lovely]

Unred,

I appreciate you answering me. I had to step away from this forum for a minute to take a breath. I agree with some of what you have written, but I still think we disagree on a great deal.

I have to giggle at your posts sometimes because your personality comes through your writing so much. The Lord bless you today.

 

[lovely]

mutzrein,

I think on point one, we agree.


As far as the second point, we disagree. I respect that you stand on what you know, unwaveringly, though. The Lord bless you today.

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein,

I think on point one, we agree.


As far as the second point, we disagree. I respect that you stand on what you know, unwaveringly, though. The Lord bless you today.

Thanks for the response Lovely. May I ask specifically, what the disagreement is? I guess I'm asking what you see as defective in what I am saying and why? Can we both be right or . . . ?

Bless you.

 

[lovely]

Hi mutzrein,

I think that we disagree on the guilt of the unbeliever, and what becomes of them after death, unless I am mistaken about your post. I do believe that the unbeliever is guilty of sin, and that God, in accordance with his nature, and lusts, has not saved him. I believe this is true even knowing that the Holy Spirit is the only One who brings men to God.

Paul, writing to the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 1:1-12) speaks about eternal death (Hell) which I believe is the consequence of unbelief.

In Romans 2, I agree that it is written to those who know God, but Paul was specifically speaking about those who did not know God, and their thoughts either accusing, or excusing them. Romans 1, 2, and 3 all speak about what I am saying, I think. God's wrath on the unbeliever (1), and then it goes into how man is without excuse (2), and discusses how God's judgement of the unbeliever is righteous. Then, it follows in chapter (3) with God's judgement being right, and how all have sinned.


Romans 1

I believe Paul is explaining to the Roman church how God's judgement of the unrighteous is righteous. He says there are three categories.

1. Those who did not have the law, and do not know God, will perish anyway because they will still have been disobedient to God, even in their lack of knowledge.

2. Those who did have the law will be judged according to it.
(he contrasts this with for not the hearers...those he just mentioned...but the doers, meaning those who have evidence of the Spirit in them)

3.Those who did not have the law (pagan societies), but do the work of the law in their nature, while not having the law, are a law unto themselves because it has been written on their hearts. (a sense of right and wrong) The proof is that they have a conscience, and then their thought either accuse, or excuse them.

All three examples speak to how the unrighteous will be judged.
I think Paul is giving instruction on the Gospel to those in Rome's church, of which he was planning to visit, because they were not in need of correction, but instruction.

The Lord bless you today.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote: I appreciate you answering me. I had to step away from this forum for a minute to take a breath. I agree with some of what you have written, but I still think we disagree on a great deal.

Looks like you got your breath back. Did get a chance to decide what it is about my simple-(ha)-analogy you don’t agree with? I see you have the Romans rote down perfectly. :wink:

 

[lovely]

Hi unred,

I think that this Scripture is one of the two main areas in which we part ways.

John 3:18-21

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

What I conclude about these verses:

Those who are condemned, DO NOT believe in God
1. They are condemned because they love the darkness
2. They hate light because it exposes their evil deeds

Those who are not condemned are those who DO believe in God
1. They are not condemned because they love the light.
2. They come to the light so that their good deeds can be seen.

Outside of God, none do good, even when they do good (according to man's wisdom). We can draw this conclusion because to do good, one must be born again, but the good that you do will not make you born again.


Here is an example of what men think is good works done outside of God.
The rich young ruler

He claims to follow all of the commandments from his youth. Did he really follow ALL? Maybe some, but certainly he was not without mistake, but Jesus doesn't contradict him, He asks more questions to reveal his heart. Jesus is casting light on what man thinks are good works, but are not, because they are not done in God.

The parable of the rich man is an example of one who was trying to do good things to be fit for Heaven, but he could never do enough good to measure up to Christ. Christ revealed that to him when he told him to sell all he had, and he couldn't. Why? Because he lacked belief, and could not sacrifice his wealth for the sake of someone he didn't know...Christ. He never came to the light (the truth), with his "good" works (which weren't wrought in God to begin with). Jesus was sorrowful, because He does want all to come to the light. He followed up with this statement, It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into Heaven. But....what is impossible with men is possible with God.

An example of good works done in God

Then, you have the rich tax collector who believed on Christ, and who had done much evil in his life, but in his belief he gives back all of the money he took, and more, and then donates half of all he has left to the poor. God made it possible, in this case, for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, that which is impossible for man. God can do what man can not do for himself.

Because of His Spirit, man believes on Christ, and because of that belief he is not condemned, and because he is not condemned he does good that is wrought in God. Apart from having been born of the Spirit, the rich young ruler's good works are not good at all, even though he perhaps did obey the law much of the time. It is was all done in vain, because only what is done in God lasts. The rich tax collector did evil works, but it was easy for him to do good for Christ, once He knew him. Perhaps he could never obey the law as much as the rich young ruler deed for deed, but no matter, the good that he does, he does in God, and it is lasting.


Here is another area where we disagree.

unred wrote:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Read it again. The word ‘faith’ is connected to the word ’believe’ and the two things that we must believe in order to please God are 1. that he exists and 2. that he will reward those who earnestly seek him. What does your doctrine teach? That no one pleases him, no one seeks him and he rewards those who hate the light and do evil. What’s wrong with this picture? I’d drop that doctrine like a hot rock if I were you.

Those who seek him, ARE those who believe.

By faith, Abel offered
By faith, Enoch was taken away
By faith, Noah prepared the ark
By faith, Abraham obeyed to go out
By faith, Sarah conceived

They began with faith. How can they seek God, if they do not believe God? Those who seek Him, do so because of belief in Him. Those who do not seek Him, (the fools) do not believe Him. They are not born of the Spirit, born again, into belief. This all precedes works done in faith, as with those listed above.


This I do agree with:

The fact is that the full gospel is composed with all these elements: salvation, faith, grace, belief, works of faith, and the work of God. If we insist on analyzing these concepts, we must reconcile all of the facets of the gospel without doing damage to any of them.

I think that Scripture teaches the Gospel so that we can understand it, and reconcile it, and believe. Certainly if what I am saying is wrong, then I am somehow breaking down other elements, and I believe the Spirit of God will help me see that, by the Word of God, and the patient, and loving, truth of my brothers, and sisters, in Christ. I must understand it, analyze it, and be able to defend it, if I am going to share it with others as a witness for Him who died for me. I have to give an answer for what I believe, and I try to study for that reason.

Tell me what you think. The Lord bless you.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote: Those who are condemned, DO NOT believe in God
1. They are condemned because they love the darkness
2. They hate light because it exposes their evil deeds

Those who are not condemned are those who DO believe in God
1. They are not condemned because they love the light.
2. They come to the light so that their good deeds can be seen.

Outside of God, none do good, even when they do good (according to man's wisdom). We can draw this conclusion because to do good, one must be born again, but the good that you do will not make you born again.


You are very close to the truth, Lovely, but you miss a couple of crucial points.

I disagree with your premise that none do good. We cannot draw that conclusion from a few verses that are talking about specific people at specific times. The verse that says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags is taken out of context. The context of that verse is that these specific people were doing wicked deeds, and even sacrificing their children to idols and then going to the temple to worship God. It was an utter and complete insult and he loathed their false show of holiness. Wouldn’t you have been disgusted? Does that mean that God finds all good deeds done to please him in sincerity and love as filthy rags? Ridiculous. I could quote hundreds of verses and psalms that say otherwise.

God is good and man is not good, but man is capable of doing good. Some people do good for selfish or egotistical reasons, such as the Pharisees who gave their money to be seen of men and praised for it. Not good. Giving to the poor because you have been touched by their plight, is good. Giving your body to be burned for some doctrine or other religious cause, when you have no love in your soul, profits you nothing. Giving your body to be burned while rescuing an old bedridden woman in compassion toward her is a good deed of the greatest love man can do. Very good. But no man is perfect. Jesus was a perfect man but the rest of mankind is not capable of being perfect, except by confession and the covering of sin by blood sacrifice.

You do have here the perfect example of works of the law and works of faith. The difference between the rich young ruler and the rich tax collector was repentance and faith. The rich young man lacked compassion for the poor and loved his riches more than his fellow man, more than God, more than life. You say that the rich young ruler, “never came to the light (the truth), with his "good" works (which weren't wrought in God to begin with).†Actually, he did seek out Jesus trusting his deeds were good but as you say, couldn’t accept the truth that Jesus gave him because he lacked faith in what Jesus told him to do in order to inherit eternal life. Riches had his heart and choked out the word so that it became unfruitful.

The tax collector repented of his dishonest, greedy lifestyle and gave up earthly riches to find treasure in heaven. They both were seeking the light, one because he had done good deeds, the other because he was ready to do truth. I don’t think you can discount the good that the rich young ruler did because if he had been like the Pharisees, Jesus would have rebuked him, instead of telling how to perfect his deeds of the law with deeds done in love. The difference is the love. This is the stumbling stone. 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

You are saying the same words but because you make God responsible for the action of faith, your gospel lacks power to convict and bring men to repentance and to have faith in Jesus‘ words. In your gospel, God is always ultimately to blame for not giving faith. While God says they are without excuse, you give them the greatest one a person could have; defective workmanship by the maker himself. The lost are lost because God didn’t give their heart enough faith to believe. You can proclaim this is fair and just, but you are not right with a God of the Bible in such a scenario. If man is not capable, man is not culpable.

Lovely said:We can draw this conclusion because to do good, one must be born again, but the good that you do will not make you born again.

Paul said;

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, (he will give) eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (he will give) indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You can claim that your God doesn’t play favorites but obviously he does. If he gives this one faith and not the other one, when they are equally guilty, he is not giving indignation and wrath to every soul of man that doeth evil, is he?

You also have mistaken what is the gift of God. The gift is the blood of Christ which is perfect and complete without any works of man, not of works lest any man should boast.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Eternal life is made possible by the gift of Jesus’ blood, but life is rewarded only to those who believe Jesus’ teaching and do the works required of that belief. Love, confession and repentance, forgiveness and humility are works of faith in the words and in the blood of Christ.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

If you would just set aside your doctrines for a moment, and read through the gospels and let God speak to you without that Calvinist filter, you would see the truth. Romans and Ephesians and Paul’s writings are all good books but they have repeatedly been so manipulated that it is almost impossible to read them without attaching a lot of false doctrinal baggage them. Peter, 1 John and James are better choices. God bless our search for truth with a more perfect understanding.

 

[mutzrein]

Thankyou again for your post Lovely. It looks like you've got another lengthy one here.

There is much to comment on within your post but before I do so I would like to offer the following for your consideration. I do this with the utmost respect for you as one who loves the Lord. It is not an effort to correct you as such, but to suggest that there is a way to look at the scripture that you may not have considered.

You see, when I read scripture, I don’t read it and then try to fit it into a pre-conceived theology or doctrine. I have learned that revelation comes from God in whatever ways He chooses. It is the Spirit of God that leads us into all truth and very often God gives man understanding of things before showing him the scripture that supports it.

This is one such case, but before arriving at this point I had to understand the premise upon which the gospel is based.

Some time ago, my father - a very gracious and godly man - and I were discussing the same points that have been raised in your post, by long distance phone call & letter. We live hundreds of miles apart. He was as firmly convinced as any man I know that all men are judged – that all will be sent to either heaven or hell. We entered into very intense discussion about it – something I was not particularly keen to do with him, so I said to him, “I would like you to write to me and to state your case in writing. And I would like you to support your belief with scripture,†“And,†I added – blurting it out with no forethought of issuing such a challenge, “with the very scripture you use, I will show you that not all are judged.â€Â

Nevertheless after making the challenge I felt confident that I would indeed be able to answer him as I said, as it was not something I contrived to do. Since God had placed a premise of understanding of the gospel within my heart I was then and am now more than ever firmly convinced of it.

When his reply was received he quoted Romans 2, virtually the whole thing while underlining the passages that he wanted to emphasise which talked about judgement. Actually it is not unlike many - even on this forum who hold to a particular premise and quote it as though everyone else should have the same premise. Of course quoting scripture is one thing but taking it out of context is something else.

So, this is my response – not verbatim in its entirety. I have changed it slightly since there were some 'givens' that my father was privy to.

Now to put something in context I ask myself, who is being addressed and what is it that relates to them and what relates to others. Of course we know that (the book of) Romans was written to Roman (Gentile) believers. The former part of chapter 2 is warning them not to judge others. Paul then goes on to say, "because of your stubborn and unrepentant hearts, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Gods wrath . . ." Now clearly, this is speaking in a personal way to the church. It is to those who by virtue of their calling by God, already have a relationship with Him. And since they have this relationship, Paul goes to great lengths to explain to them that they will be judged for their actions.

He then goes on to broaden the scope to include every human being, both to those who do evil and to those who do good. And directly after this comes the key, because then Paul states emphatically what will happen to mankind.

From verse 12, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles - because they are outside of the law.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They will perish.

Going on, "and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: The Jews - Gods own people because they were entrusted with the law.
Question: And what will happen to them? Answer: They will be judged.

Going on again, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Now here Paul make an amazing transition between those who have been given the law (the Jews), and those by virtue of their faith in God are declared righteous (this includes both Jew and Gentile.) And then Paul explains this further as he focuses on the Gentiles saying, "Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles who have been born again.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They also will be judged as the next verse avows, "This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my Gospel declares."

So summing this up:

Gentiles who sin apart from the law perish apart from the law. And let’s not forget why the law was given to Gods people. If it was not given to the Gentiles then they (the Gentiles) perish outside of it. That means they are not judged by it.

Jews who sin under the law are judged by the Law.

Jews & Gentiles who obey the law, (not because they follow the written code but since the law is written on their hearts) are declared righteous. And since it is written on their hearts their consciences accuse and defend them. And who knows the heart of man but God alone - he will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ.

 

[lovely]

Unred,

unred wrote:

I disagree with your premise that none do good. We cannot draw that conclusion from a few verses that are talking about specific people at specific times. The verse that says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags is taken out of context. The context of that verse is that these specific people were doing wicked deeds, and even sacrificing their children to idols and then going to the temple to worship God. It was an utter and complete insult and he loathed their false show of holiness. Wouldn’t you have been disgusted? Does that mean that God finds all good deeds done to please him in sincerity and love as filthy rags? Ridiculous. I could quote hundreds of verses and psalms that say otherwise.

My correct premise is that none do good apart from God. David, in both of his Psalms, was not talking about specific people at specific times...in fact, Paul (Romans 3) used it to show that both Jews, and gentiles, were in the same boat because it speaks to the state of man apart from God. This is because it is the nature of man to not do good, or seek God, prior to being born again in the spirit.

I never said that God finds all good deeds done to please him in sincerity and love as filthy rags. I am saying that they are only done in sincerity and love, when someone actually loves Him. This is why the rich young ruler...who was not repentant...didn't give up all of his money and follow Christ. His deeds were as filthy rags because he was not clothed in the blood of Christ. You can not come to God through your own righteousness.

unred wrote:

You are saying the same words but because you make God responsible for the action of faith, your gospel lacks power to convict and bring men to repentance and to have faith in Jesus‘ words. In your gospel, God is always ultimately to blame for not giving faith. While God says they are without excuse, you give them the greatest one a person could have; defective workmanship by the maker himself. The lost are lost because God didn’t give their heart enough faith to believe. You can proclaim this is fair and just, but you are not right with a God of the Bible in such a scenario. If man is not capable, man is not culpable.

unred, I speak no other Gospel than that of Christ. The scripture teaches that we must be born again by the Holy Spirit, and through the blood of Jesus Christ. You reject this, but it is not me you are arguing with, it is the Word of God. You blame God for man's sin, not me. I never once stated that God is to blame for not giving faith, or that the Gospel lacks the power to convict. Faith, and repentance, both come from God to begin with, so logically the opposite is true. I never said that the lost were lost because God didn't give their heart enough faith to believe...they have no faith at all. The lost are lost because Adam was tempted by satan, and he willfully gave into temptation...sin entered the world. Now, we have a sinful nature, and we freely sin, because we are being directed by our sinful lusts. God grants us mercy as believers, and makes us sons, and we are born again by the Holy Spirit through the blood of Jesus Christ. Our will, under the direction of lust, can not seek God, or do good in Him, apart from Him. Man is capable, and culpable, and unless he is granted mercy by God, our Creator, he remain lost.

You think you understand Calvinism...of which I am not defending...and it taints the interaction we have. I am not afraid to agree with you, if you say something that aligns with Scripture, I don't care who you are. I am not under the impression that the only people who have faith are those who believe in Calvinism. On the other hand, you can not agree with me, because you don't want to appear to be in agreement with a Calvinist, even when I show you the truth in God's Word. I think it is hard for us to communicate under these conditions because you tend to be arguing against Calvinism, and putting things into my posts that aren't being stated, but are your conclusions that you have drawn from a doctrine that you despise. Maybe you should just quote me, instead of trying to read my mind, or suppose you understand my conclusions.

I draw my conclusions from the Word of God alone, and do not feel bound to a doctrine in the least bit. I do not think we have to assume someone is closed to Scripture just because they are a Calvinist, or a Baptist, or Pentecostal, or Methodist, or Catholic, or whatever. After all, a doctrine is a collection of beliefs. I haven't met anyone, or any group, yet who has the perfect collection. I think that we become God's children, love Him, and grow in His Truth, and Love, as a family of believers together by studying His Word.

I really do not know what else to say to you on this topic. We do not agree, and I can not agree with you because I do not think what you believe aligns with the Word as the Holy Spirit has taught it to me. To be more specific this is what I believe is taught by the Word, and I will change as God changes me, and only in the areas He desires.

1. I believe God's Word teaches that man is sinful because of Adam's sin, that his will is directed by his vanity, and lust. I believe that God knows, ehaustively, the future, and that He directs man's footsteps in accordance with man's will. I believe that apart from God, man's works are all evil, and he does not seek God. I believe that Christ came to die for man while he was still an enemy of God, and through the blood of Christ God grants His children mercy.

2. I believe that God grants mercy on those He grants mercy on. I do not presume to know how He comes to that choice, but I do know that ALL men deserve Hell, and God is not unjust for granting mercy on His children. Just the opposite. I think that someone who believes that God is unfair in this sense, does not truly see the filth of sin, or hate it.

3. I believe that all who believe are born of the Spririt of God, and cleansed in the blood of the Lamb, and to them was given the power to become the sons of God. If one is not a son, then they are an enemy of God, and not born of God by the Holy Spirit through the blood of Christ. Scripture compares the Holy Spirit to the wind blowing this way and that, and none know from whence it came, or where it is going.

Anyway, just a summary of our disagreement. Nothing that you have written, that I didn't already agree with, seems to have the ring of Truth for me. I do admit that some of what you have written seems vague to me, and perhaps I misunderstand you in some areas, but overall I do not think we can agree. I pray the Lord blesses you today.

 

[lovely]

Mutzrein,

I want to study this more, because I see what you are saying concerning Romans. Please allow me some more time to study this in light of your post, and thank you for sharing it with me. I think I understand you, and I want to pray about it, and to look at it all again if you don't mind. The Lord bless you.

 

[Vic C.]

Going on again, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Now here Paul make an amazing transition between those who have been given the law (the Jews), and those by virtue of their faith in God are declared righteous (this includes both Jew and Gentile.) And then Paul explains this further as he focuses on the Gentiles saying, "Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles who have been born again.

Since you brought it up, how do you come to the conclusion that this speaks about BornAgain Gentiles?

The judgement upon those truely born again is not a judgement of salvation or condemnation; it is a judgement of rewards in Heaven.

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Those in the judgement you pointed out weren't given the Law and have no idea of any Gospel message. That encompasses a good percentage of all who have ever lived throughout history. They will be judged based on how they responded to their consciences; the Law written on the heart.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote: 1. I believe God's Word teaches that man is sinful because of Adam's sin, that his will is directed by his vanity, and lust. I believe that God knows, ehaustively, the future, and that He directs man's footsteps in accordance with man's will. I believe that apart from God, man's works are all evil, and he does not seek God. I believe that Christ came to die for man while he was still an enemy of God, and through the blood of Christ God grants His children mercy.

We inherited a physical body bent on self preservation and an ego bent on self glorification from Adam. These are by nature, sinful, because our ego wants to have God’s place in our hearts and our bodies only desire is for their own good, not for the good of others. These are called the flesh nature. When we operate and direct our actions from the our greedy, self obsessed flesh, we are not pleasing to God. I think we can at least pretend to agree up to this point. :wink:

As far as the future goes, we do disagree. I believe if the future were something that could be known, God would know it exhaustively. It doesn’t exist, so there is nothing to know, or not know. So we don’t have to panic that God doesn’t know it. We can tell the difference between the past and the future because the past is passed and that’s why they call it the past, and the future hasn’t happened and that’s why they call it the future.

The only certainties of the future are things that God says will happen. We can trust him to bring those things to pass, because he‘s God and he knows what he can do and what he can‘t do. God can’t cause an uncaused action. That would be as impossible as God creating the rock too heavy for him to lift. But if God says someone will do something, they will do it. These are not necessarily free will actions and those who do them are not necessarily going to be rewarded or punished. That would be God’s call as to how much they willed to be part of the event, whether good or bad. One certainty is that God will punish the wicked, not reward them with new natures, new bodies and eternal life. Why? Because he says so. He says he will reward those who seek him and do his will but punish ALL those who refuse to do his will.

When you say that apart from God, man’s works are all evil, are you saying that when a father risks his life to save a child, this is evil? Or do you mean that when a person does something in love they are acting in God who is good? I would agree that everything that is done in love has been done in God, whether this person is a believer or not. Things done in pure and true love, in sincerity are done in God. Is that what you mean? Otherwise you will have to explain how a mother’s love for their children can be evil and not of God. I know of some good, humble and kind folk who claim to not believe in God who actually have the love of God in them but they have been told evil things about God that make them reject him.

Lovely wrote: 2. I believe that God grants mercy on those He grants mercy on. I do not presume to know how He comes to that choice, but I do know that ALL men deserve Hell, and God is not unjust for granting mercy on His children. Just the opposite. I think that someone who believes that God is unfair in this sense, does not truly see the filth of sin, or hate it.

Dear Lovely, we would have died in the loins of Adam some 6000 years ago if God were not merciful. So all who think God owes us eternal life are not being realistic. Your verse that tells you that God grants mercy on some and not others is out of context. He’s not talking about eternal life, but you apparently need that for your doctrines. He wants to extend mercy to ALL, but he cannot allow sin to go unpunished. Unless you rid your life of sin, by confessing and forsaking it, you are not saved. Period. The blood is free and available for all but the sin is going to have to go. You can’t have sin and eternal life. It’s either / or. Call it works, call it grace, but believe it.

Lovely wrote: 3. I believe that all who believe are born of the Spririt of God, and cleansed in the blood of the Lamb, and to them was given the power to become the sons of God. If one is not a son, then they are an enemy of God, and not born of God by the Holy Spirit through the blood of Christ. Scripture compares the Holy Spirit to the wind blowing this way and that, and none know from whence it came, or where it is going.

I agree with all this, because it is those who believe what Jesus said, who do what it takes to be born again and become the sons of God. We just disagree on what that is. I believe that one must follow Jesus teachings and let that word of life grow in your soul, making you more like Christ every day. The Spirit abides in those who abide in love. The word of Christ has power to give life because you follow his instructions and love and forgive one another. When we walk in the light of his words, the blood cleanses us from all our sin. If the spirit that raised up Jesus abides in you, he will raise you up as well. Exactly what did I say that the Bible doesn’t teach?


Lovely wrote: Anyway, just a summary of our disagreement. Nothing that you have written, that I didn't already agree with, seems to have the ring of Truth for me. I do admit that some of what you have written seems vague to me, and perhaps I misunderstand you in some areas, but overall I do not think we can agree. I pray the Lord blesses you today.

It seems that you enter these discussions just to check the cement of your ideas. I used to believe almost verbatim what you expound here but it never would fit with the words of Jesus. Now I understand how I missed it and what it really means to believe in Christ. God grant you that your eyes could see the snare that Satan has devised to deceive the very elect. Let’s hope it’s still not possible. I can’t think of another thing I could say to make you understand my view. I feel as if I am tripping over the words to find the words so I'll give up this discussion. God bless your search for truth.

 

[mutzrein]

Going on again, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Now here Paul make an amazing transition between those who have been given the law (the Jews), and those by virtue of their faith in God are declared righteous (this includes both Jew and Gentile.) And then Paul explains this further as he focuses on the Gentiles saying, "Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles who have been born again.

Since you brought it up, how do you come to the conclusion that this speaks about BornAgain Gentiles?

Well of course both Jew and Gentile alike are born again but this specific passage speaks of Gentiles (who do not have the law) with the requirements of the law being written on their hearts.

Hebrews plainly states that since God found fault with the old covenant and the people who were given it, then He says He will make a new covenant with Israel and Judah. And what was, or is, this new covenant? “I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.â€Â

So Vic, are you questioning whether this new covenant (being born of the Spirit of God) is the writing of the law on our hearts or whether the new covenant extends to Gentiles.

 

[lovely]

mutzrein,

I have some questions that pop up when I try to think of that passage as you explained it.

1. Do you believe that these, referred to in Romans 2, as having the law written in their hearts, will be judged according to that law? Do you believe that when we are born of the Spirit that we have passed from death into life, and do not stand in judgement?

2. And, if they have God's law written in their hearts, why are their thoughts accusing them, or excusing them? I ask this in light of Paul, in verse 1, speaking of how man has no excuse, and also because we know there is no condemnation for a believer in Christ.

3. Doesn't seem out of the flow of Pauls' thoughts to bring up only the gentile believers when he was clearly speaking of God's judgement on unbelievers in the previous two examples? And, he doesn't mention a category of jewish believers also having the law written on their hearts at all. It seems he would do that in contrast.

Anyway, still thinking on it. The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein,

I have some questions that pop up when I try to think of that passage as you explained it.

1. Do you believe that these, referred to in Romans 2, as having the law written in their hearts, will be judged according to that law? Do you believe that when we are born of the Spirit that we have passed from death into life, and do not stand in judgement?

2. And, if they have God's law written in their hearts, why are their thoughts accusing them, or excusing them? I ask this in light of Paul, in verse 1, speaking of how man has no excuse, and also because we know there is no condemnation for a believer in Christ.

3. Doesn't seem out of the flow of Pauls' thoughts to bring up only the gentile believers when he was clearly speaking of God's judgement on unbelievers in the previous two examples? And, he doesn't mention a category of jewish believers also having the law written on their hearts at all. It seems he would do that in contrast.

Anyway, still thinking on it. The Lord bless you.

Good questions Lovely. I like the reasoned approach – very much along my own lines.

1. Part 1. No. No-one is made righteous by the law and therefore those who are born of the Spirit will be judged by Christ according to what they have done with the gift of life given them through the Holy Spirit. Those who have received the Spirit, walk by faith and are made righteous by their faith. The law has no relevance to them whatsoever.
Part 2. Yes, when we are born of the Spirit we pass from death to life. Previously we were dead (in trespasses and sins) and now we have received the gift of life which is the Holy Spirit. But the latter part of this question I eluded to above. Those who have been born again are judged. As it says in Romans 2. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

2. As it says elsewhere, regarding the new covenant, the law is written on the hearts and minds. Since we are led by the Spirit, which has written the law within us, we don’t need a written law to remind us of how to love the Lord or our neighbours or to refrain from fleshly desires. Our (mind) thoughts (guided by a conscience attuned by the Spirit) will tell us when we have walked outside of what the Spirit allows us.
And it is for this very reason that ‘there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life (which is written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts) has set us free from the law of sin and death.’

3 No, I don’t see it out of the flow at all. You talk about the previous two examples of God’s judgement on unbelievers. And what examples are they? The first are those who sin apart from the law. It doesn’t say they are judged. It says they perish. What’s the point of a judgment for the dead? Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees about the state of things after the resurrection. And Jesus said – you are badly mistaken. God is not the God of the dead but the living. If they have not been made sons & daughters of God, they perish. Finito. For these, there is no judgement and therefore no heaven and no hell. This is the result of Adam’s sin and the extent of God’s wrath on these – death.
This the dealings of a righteous God – not to punish for eternity those who have had no chance to know Him, but to let them die no different to anyone else, except they are not resurrected.

Not a very savoury thought to promote within Christendom but yet why cannot it accept that when the scripture says perish, it actually means it.

And the second example of course is those who have sinned under the law. They will be judged by it. I believe that there is much we have yet to understand about God’s dealing with his ‘chosen’ people, the Jews. In one part of scripture it talks about all Israel being saved. Now if this means (and I’m not adamantly saying it does) that all of those who are the children of Israel will be given life because of their relationship with God, what is that to us? What I do know is that those who have lived by the law will be judged by it. Remember too, that the law was around a long time before Jesus and many delighted in God’s law (as well as those who sinned) so they are not all unbelievers.

But as regards Jewish believers - another memory jogger perhaps. Context. Who is Paul writing to? Gentiles. He is telling them that even though they do not have the law, the law will be written on their hearts. Of course in the letter to the Hebrews it speaks of this law being written on their hearts also. This is the new covenant of course, and the reason that the Gentiles are included.

Lovely – I’ve not given this as much time as I would like to have so if anything is misquoted or you need more accurate explanation, please let me know.

The Lord bless You

 

[lovely]

Dear Mutzrein,

Thanks for the answers to my questions. I have pondered this passage so much that I nearly have it memorized now! Before I go into what I want to say, though, I just want to tell you how thankful I am that you have been very gracious, and patient, in your responses. They have been loving, and clear, a real blessing to me. The Holy Spirit has used you teach me. Thank you.

mutzrein wrote:

1. Part 1. No. No-one is made righteous by the law and therefore those who are born of the Spirit will be judged by Christ according to what they have done with the gift of life given them through the Holy Spirit. Those who have received the Spirit, walk by faith and are made righteous by their faith. The law has no relevance to them whatsoever.
Part 2. Yes, when we are born of the Spirit we pass from death to life. Previously we were dead (in trespasses and sins) and now we have received the gift of life which is the Holy Spirit. But the latter part of this question I eluded to above. Those who have been born again are judged. As it says in Romans 2. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I agree with your answers here completely.

mutzrein wrote:

2. As it says elsewhere, regarding the new covenant, the law is written on the hearts and minds. Since we are led by the Spirit, which has written the law within us, we don’t need a written law to remind us of how to love the Lord or our neighbours or to refrain from fleshly desires. Our (mind) thoughts (guided by a conscience attuned by the Spirit) will tell us when we have walked outside of what the Spirit allows us.
And it is for this very reason that ‘there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life (which is written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts) has set us free from the law of sin and death.’

I also completely agree with this.

Mutzrein wrote

3 No, I don’t see it out of the flow at all. You talk about the previous two examples of God’s judgement on unbelievers. And what examples are they? The first are those who sin apart from the law. It doesn’t say they are judged. It says they perish. What’s the point of a judgment for the dead? Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees about the state of things after the resurrection. And Jesus said – you are badly mistaken. God is not the God of the dead but the living. If they have not been made sons & daughters of God, they perish. Finito. For these, there is no judgement and therefore no heaven and no hell. This is the result of Adam’s sin and the extent of God’s wrath on these – death.
This the dealings of a righteous God – not to punish for eternity those who have had no chance to know Him, but to let them die no different to anyone else, except they are not resurrected.

Not a very savoury thought to promote within Christendom but yet why cannot it accept that when the scripture says perish, it actually means it.

Okay, this I agree with in part, and I am unsure in the other part. I need to pray, and study, the part about "they perish" more. There are Scriptures that speak of God's wrath, and I do not understand how both can be true. It seems that you may think that the wrath is not for unbelieving Gentiles, but perhaps some other category of people. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but ultimately I think you do not know either. Is this correct?

mutzrein wrote:

And the second example of course is those who have sinned under the law. They will be judged by it. I believe that there is much we have yet to understand about God’s dealing with his ‘chosen’ people, the Jews. In one part of scripture it talks about all Israel being saved. Now if this means (and I’m not adamantly saying it does) that all of those who are the children of Israel will be given life because of their relationship with God, what is that to us? What I do know is that those who have lived by the law will be judged by it. Remember too, that the law was around a long time before Jesus and many delighted in God’s law (as well as those who sinned) so they are not all unbelievers.

Okay, I understand what you are saying here, and again I am not sure on parts of it. I do agree that Paul is saying that they will be judged by the law, and then he seems to say that those who are justified are those who not only hear it, but do it. Do you agree with this? Perhaps there are four categories here, Gentiles who do not believe, Jews who have the law (hearers), but do not believe. Then, Jews that are both hearers, and doers, that do believe. Then, Gentiles (believers) that have the law written on their hearts, by God, and follow it according to their thoughts by the witness of their own consciences. I have to study this more too.

mutzrein wrote:

But as regards Jewish believers - another memory jogger perhaps. Context. Who is Paul writing to? Gentiles. He is telling them that even though they do not have the law, the law will be written on their hearts. Of course in the letter to the Hebrews it speaks of this law being written on their hearts also. This is the new covenant of course, and the reason that the Gentiles are included.

Now, I do completely agree that this is what Paul is saying concerning the Gentiles, you are correct. Thank you for pointing it out to me. I thank God that He used your post, and a His Word, to show me this.

So, I want to summarize what I think the Scripture says again, and acknowledge that I was wrong in my earlier post.

Man's judgement is not righteous, and God's is. God will render to each according to his deeds...eternal life to those in faith, and wrath to those who obey unrighteousness. To the Jew first, and then to the Gentile.

examples:
1. Gentiles that have sinned without the law, will also perish without law
2. Jews that have sinned in the law will be judged by the law...for not the hearers of the law are just (unbelievers?) in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. (believers who both hear, and do?) Then, he continues this point by explaining that the Gentiles (believers) that do not have the law, but by nature do the law...these are a law unto themselves. WHY? Because the law has been written on their hearts. ONLY the God can do that. (The Law that John tells us to obey...loving God first, and our neighbor as ourselves, and indeed denying our flesh.) Their own conscience will bear witness of the law, and their thoughts will accuse, or excuse them accordingly in the day when Christ Judges the secrets of men.

I haven't stopped pondering this, but I wanted to let you know where I am at with it. Pray for me concerning this, and thanks very much. The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

Lovely - thankyou for your kind and thoughtful comments. I am happy to know that we are each vessels in the Lord's service. I know that as we abide in Him and He in us, we cannot help but produce good fruit in keeping with the vine.

You have been a blessing to me as I have read your responses.

Please feel free to ask me if there is anything else I can comment on, on this or other topics / issues. I don't pretend to know it all - but there is one over-riding passion that the Lord has planted within me - and that is to know the truth.

May He continue to bless & prosper you.

 

[unred typo]

Vic wrote: The judgement upon those truely born again is not a judgement of salvation or condemnation; it is a judgement of rewards in Heaven.

1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Vic, this is one of the ideas that renders the word of God of no effect. The works here are the work of the ministry that God gave to some. Just as the Pharisees built on the OT law, the apostles built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. Just as those who teach here have their own ideas about what the gospel is, and build onto the gospel, there were different ideas then. Some built errors onto the gospel foundation that Jesus taught.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 3 is not speaking of works of faith and love that a believer must maintain in order to remain in Christ. Please read it again and notice the verses I pulled out that show Paul is talking about doctrines taught, some in sincerity believed to be true and some that Paul later in his epistles said were just in vanity to gain a following.

1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Cr 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's.

By saying that this building is all the works done by believers, you are perpetuating the idea that to be saved the only thing a person must do is believe certain doctrines. If they have faith that Jesus will save them by believing these few things, they think Jesus makes them born again, regardless of whether they do anything that Jesus taught. They believe that beyond just believing, anything they do evil will not count against them since they are already saved by doing nothing but believe doctrines are true. But this is not true. Jesus taught that we must do what he commanded in order to be saved, and these works of faith, love and obedience are not to be confused with doing works of the OT law (I.e. circumcision, animal sacrifice offerings, holy days and washing of hands, etc.)

Make no mistake. God will judge everyone, according to their deeds.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

Those who teach error may still be saved because of their confession of sins, works of love and faith in Christ, but Jesus said they would be least in the kingdom of heaven. Imagine your dismay if those you love are not saved because they thought just believing a few facts about the gospel would save them without any works of faith in what Jesus himself taught. How many have you heard say that they don’t care about rewards, that being in heaven will be enough for them? They think all they must do to be saved is ‘believe’ and not ‘do,’ but this belief is empty of meaning and this workless faith will not save. :o

A question, Vic. What determines who is born again or rather, what makes a person born again? That’s still confusing. These words are so over loaded with false doctrines, It’s hard to get meanings across. How does the Spirit choose those who are to become born again?