'I AM' vs 'I am' between old and new testament.....significance?

[Eugene]

I disagree with that. It all has a significance. Like spelling LORD all uppercase in the OT to represent Jehovah the lord of host, the mighty one and holy one of Israel. Jesus never once referred to himself as the lord of host.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I (Jesus), am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD (Jehovah), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

John 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 8:29 And He (Our Father) that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As a man Jesus took on Him the place as servant.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth," and that will be especially manifest in Revelation 1:8 I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[jocor]

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I (Jesus), am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD (Jehovah), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

John 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 8:29 And He (Our Father) that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As a man Jesus took on Him the place as servant.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth," and that will be especially manifest in Revelation 1:8 I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I'm not going to discuss the interpretation of the NT verses you quoted unless you ask me to. However, your interpretation of Isaiah 43:11 must be addressed. You are reading "Jesus" (Yeshua) into the text. You are taking the words "beside me there is no saviour" too literally. Since you correctly believe Yeshua is our Saviour, you then make the unwarranted leap to say the saviour of verse 11 must be Yeshua. Yeshua's Father, YHWH (the LORD), is the ultimate Saviour of mankind. He achieves this work of salvation by appointing His only begotten Son Yeshua to carry out that work. He made His Son to be the Saviour of the world (Acts 5:31; 13:23).

The word “Saviour” in Isa 43:11 is the Hebrew “yasha” (Strong’s #3467).

Here is how “yasha” was used in Judges 6:14-15:

“And Yahweh looked upon him [Gideon], and said, Go in this your might, and you shall save [yasha] Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent you? And he said unto Him, Oh my Adonai, how shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.”​

These words were spoken to Gideon long before Yahweh used Isaiah to prophesy about there being no Saviour besides Him.

Here are a few more examples:

“And Yahweh gave Israel a saviour [yasha], so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.” 2 Kings 13:5​

We learn that the saviour Yahweh gave them was Joash (vs.25).

Isaiah prophesied that Yahweh would send a future saviour to Egypt to deliver them from their oppressors.

“And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto Yahweh of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto Yahweh because of the oppressors, and He shall send them a saviour [yasha], and a great one, and he shall deliver them. “ Isaiah 19:20​

Nehemiah 9:27 speaks of saviours that Yahweh sent to save Israel.

“Therefore you delivered them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto you, you heard them from heaven; and according to your manifold mercies you gave them saviours [yasha], who saved [yasha] them out of the hand of their enemies.”
​

Obadiah also prophesied about a future saviour that will be sent to Israel.

“And saviours [yasha] shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be Yahweh’s.” Obadiah 1:21

​

From the Scripture references given above, it is clear that there were other saviours besides Yahweh both before and after the words spoken by Isaiah. How are we to take those apparent contradictions?

It seems obvious to me that when Yahweh said there was no other Saviour except Him, He was declaring Himself the ONE TRUE SAVIOUR. As such, He can choose any method He wants to save people. He can choose to save by Himself or He can choose to save by raising up men to act as saviours. The men He raises up do not replace Yahweh as the ultimate Saviour from whom all salvation flows. They are vessels through whom Yahweh saves. If Yahweh can and has used men in the past to be saviours, then why can’t He use His Messiah to save people as well? If Yahweh can use men to bring about a temporal salvation to His people, why can’t He use His Messiah to bring about an eternal salvation for His people? He can and He has.

He has also placed in Torah the life of Joseph which is an uncanny parallel with the life of Yeshua. Yahweh used Joseph to save not only the children of Israel, but many others from the nation stricken by the famine. Consider the following two verses.

​

Genesis 45:7 – And Elohim sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

Genesis 50:20 - But as for you, you thought evil against me; but Elohim meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

​

The starving nations had to come to Joseph for food and to save their lives. He was a type of Messiah Yeshua to whom the world must come for spiritual food and salvation. Just as Pharaoh appointed Joseph second in command and used him to save the people, Yahweh appointed Yeshua second in command and Saviour of the world. If Yahweh could use Joseph to save people, He could use His Messiah, Yeshua, to save people as well. However, the salvation we receive through Yeshua is far more efficacious than the temporal salvation received through Joseph. For salvation through Yeshua is eternal.

 

[Eugene]

I'm not going to discuss the interpretation of the NT verses you quoted unless you ask me to. However, your interpretation of Isaiah 43:11 must be addressed. You are reading "Jesus" (Yeshua) into the text. You are taking the words "beside me there is no saviour" too literally. Since you correctly believe Yeshua is our Saviour, you then make the unwarranted leap to say the saviour of verse 11 must be Yeshua. Yeshua's Father, YHWH (the LORD), is the ultimate Saviour of mankind. He achieves this work of salvation by appointing His only begotten Son Yeshua to carry out that work. He made His Son to be the Saviour of the world (Acts 5:31; 13:23).

Dear jocor, I hardly know where to begin with your response. First of all unless I’m mistaken you seem to suggest that Jesus was created for His purpose which I inflexibly deny.

I’ll attempt to keep this short, but I would ask who it is that prepared the way of Jehovah, and was this use of the word Jehovah used of Jesus or our Father? Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

It is written in John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus is my Lord and God also.

 

[jocor]

Dear jocor, I hardly know where to begin with your response. First of all unless I’m mistaken you seem to suggest that Jesus was created for His purpose which I inflexibly deny.

I did not suggest anything about Yeshua except that he is not speaking in Isa 43:11. His Father, YHWH, is speaking.

I’ll attempt to keep this short, but I would ask who it is that prepared the way of Jehovah, and was this use of the word Jehovah used of Jesus or our Father? Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Of all the N.T. verses that quote Isaiah 40:3, Luke 3:4-6 aids our understanding because it includes Isaiah 40:4 & 5. It says, "As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of [Yahweh], make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of [Yahweh]." "Prepare ye the way of [Yahweh]" does not mean, "Move out of the way because Yahweh is coming." And so when Yeshua comes they believe he is Yahweh.

How was "the way" to be prepared? By filling valleys, leveling mountains, straightening paths, etc. This work is not to be understood literally, but spiritually through the humbling of those in exalted positions and the restoration of truth. Who was to do that work? Jn.4:34 says, "Yeshua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish his work." Almighty Yahweh appointed His Son Yeshua to finish His work. Yeshua was Yahweh's instrument in the accomplishment of His great plan. Yeshua is the "Messenger of the Covenant," "the servant of Yahweh," and "the salvation of Yahweh." Jn.14:6 calls Yeshua "the way." He is "the way of Yahweh;" the means through which Yahweh will finish His work.

It is written in John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus is my Lord and God also.

I know Thomas did not speak English, so he did not say "God". I doubt he spoke Greek to Yeshua, but if he did, he said "theos". If he spoke Hebrew, which I believe he did, he most likely said "elohim". The point is, "theos" and "elohim" were used of men and angels in Thomas' day. It is perfectly acceptable for Thomas to say "my lord and my elohim" for that is exactly what Yeshua is to all believers. I do not deny Yeshua is an "elohim". He is not "the only true Elohim (God)" as Yeshua himself declared in John 17:3. So, I declare along with Thomas that Yeshua is my lord and my elohim.

Here is what the disciples believed shortly after Yeshua's death. The two on the road to Emmaus said Yeshua, “was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God…and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:19-21). This was undoubtedly Thomas' belief as well. To suggest that "doubting" Thomas, who previously doubted Yeshua's resurrection thinking he was still dead, would suddenly acquire a knowledge that Yeshua was his God who became a man, died (even though he is immortal) and then resurrected is quite a stretch.

 

[Eugene]

I did not suggest anything about Yeshua except that he is not speaking in Isa 43:11. His Father, YHWH, is speaking.

Of all the N.T. verses that quote Isaiah 40:3, Luke 3:4-6 aids our understanding because it includes Isaiah 40:4 & 5. It says, "As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of [Yahweh], make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of [Yahweh]." "Prepare ye the way of [Yahweh]" does not mean, "Move out of the way because Yahweh is coming." And so when Yeshua comes they believe he is Yahweh.

How was "the way" to be prepared? By filling valleys, leveling mountains, straightening paths, etc. This work is not to be understood literally, but spiritually through the humbling of those in exalted positions and the restoration of truth. Who was to do that work? Jn.4:34 says, "Yeshua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish his work." Almighty Yahweh appointed His Son Yeshua to finish His work. Yeshua was Yahweh's instrument in the accomplishment of His great plan. Yeshua is the "Messenger of the Covenant," "the servant of Yahweh," and "the salvation of Yahweh." Jn.14:6 calls Yeshua "the way." He is "the way of Yahweh;" the means through which Yahweh will finish His work.

I know Thomas did not speak English, so he did not say "God". I doubt he spoke Greek to Yeshua, but if he did, he said "theos". If he spoke Hebrew, which I believe he did, he most likely said "elohim". The point is, "theos" and "elohim" were used of men and angels in Thomas' day. It is perfectly acceptable for Thomas to say "my lord and my elohim" for that is exactly what Yeshua is to all believers. I do not deny Yeshua is an "elohim". He is not "the only true Elohim (God)" as Yeshua himself declared in John 17:3. So, I declare along with Thomas that Yeshua is my lord and my elohim.

Here is what the disciples believed shortly after Yeshua's death. The two on the road to Emmaus said Yeshua, “was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God…and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:19-21). This was undoubtedly Thomas' belief as well. To suggest that "doubting" Thomas, who previously doubted Yeshua's resurrection thinking he was still dead, would suddenly acquire a knowledge that Yeshua was his God who became a man, died (even though he is immortal) and then resurrected is quite a stretch.

I'm sorry to have to say that supposition endears itself to accommodate your doctrine.
Is Jesus God? Give me scripture where Jesus says He is not God, never has been God, or ever will be God.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 

[jocor]

I'm sorry to have to say that supposition endears itself to accommodate your doctrine.
Is Jesus God?

No. Not in the sense that you want him to be God. He is an elohim and a theos, but not God in the sense that his Father YHWH is God. There is only one God, Yeshua's God, Yahweh, his Father.

Give me scripture where Jesus says He is not God, never has been God, or ever will be God.

He referred to his Father as "my God" (Mt 27:46; John 20:17; Rev 3:12). Therefore, his Father is the greater God or greater Elohim and Yeshua would be a lesser elohim. When the Jews accused him of making himself out to be God (John 10:33), he first showed them from Scripture that even the mighty men of Israel were called "gods" (elohim). Then he corrected the Jews by saying he said he was the "Son of God", not God Himself. In John 17:3, Yeshua told us exactly who the only true God is, his Father.

Can you show me where Yeshua said he was God and will always be God in the same sense his Father is God?

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

The name "Emmanuel" is to be understood in the light of Acts 10:38; "How God anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.." Not that Yeshua was El, but that El was with and in Yeshua. If you choose to use that logic, then consider the name Jehu. In Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, Yahweh?

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

As I see it, as a child, Yeshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him" (Luke 2:40). Even at that time Yeshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Luke 2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form of God." It does not say he "Who, being God." Yet, Yeshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV, ASV, ESV, NASB and other versions correctly translate Philippians 2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Yeshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

 

[Eugene]

No. Not in the sense that you want him to be God. He is an elohim and a theos, but not God in the sense that his Father YHWH is God. There is only one God, Yeshua's God, Yahweh, his Father.

He referred to his Father as "my God" (Mt 27:46; John 20:17; Rev 3:12). Therefore, his Father is the greater God or greater Elohim and Yeshua would be a lesser elohim. When the Jews accused him of making himself out to be God (John 10:33), he first showed them from Scripture that even the mighty men of Israel were called "gods" (elohim). Then he corrected the Jews by saying he said he was the "Son of God", not God Himself. In John 17:3, Yeshua told us exactly who the only true God is, his Father.

Can you show me where Yeshua said he was God and will always be God in the same sense his Father is God?

The name "Emmanuel" is to be understood in the light of Acts 10:38; "How God anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.." Not that Yeshua was El, but that El was with and in Yeshua. If you choose to use that logic, then consider the name Jehu. In Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, Yahweh?

As I see it, as a child, Yeshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of Yahweh was upon him" (Luke 2:40). Even at that time Yeshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Luke 2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form of God." It does not say he "Who, being God." Yet, Yeshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV, ASV, ESV, NASB and other versions correctly translate Philippians 2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Yeshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

Is your thinking of Jesus restricted to after Jesus made Him of no reputation after telling us in
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God?

 

[jocor]

Is your thinking of Jesus restricted to after Jesus made Him of no reputation after telling us in
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God?

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I'll answer according to what I think your asking.

Verse 5 reads as follows; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yeshua:" Does that mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth or both? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as "Messiah Yeshua" . If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yeshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38). So my thinking is that Paul is telling us to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua after his birth. That is a mind that would not consider equality with Yahweh something to be grasped; a mind that humbles itself to become of no reputation; a mind that serves others; and a mind that obeys Yahweh in all things.

 

[turnorburn]

How could you possibly know anything about Jesus if you don't know him?

tob

 

[jocor]

How could you possibly know anything about Jesus if you don't know him?

tob

Why are you saying I don't know him? Because I disagree with your doctrine?

 

[turnorburn]

Because your signature says so..

tob

 

[jocor]

Because your signature says so..

tob

Just because I am not a Christian does not mean I am not a believer in Messiah Yeshua. I received him as my Lord and Savior 29 years ago. Christianity kicked me out when I started keeping the 7th day Sabbath. They say I am fallen from grace. They say I am not a member of the Body of Messiah because I believe he is the Son of God rather than God Himself. Thankfully they will not be my judge.

 

[Eugene]

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I'll answer according to what I think your asking.

Verse 5 reads as follows; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yeshua:" Does that mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth or both? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as "Messiah Yeshua" . If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yeshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38). So my thinking is that Paul is telling us to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua after his birth. That is a mind that would not consider equality with Yahweh something to be grasped; a mind that humbles itself to become of no reputation; a mind that serves others; and a mind that obeys Yahweh in all things.

To me the context of us being like Jesus in Php 2:5 is for us to become servants to others as He did. As to us being in the form of God we were made so according to Gen 1:26. God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Who is the image of God?

You said, “If Yeshua pre-existed . .” I have no idea where you’re coming from now. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Free]

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I'll answer according to what I think your asking.

Verse 5 reads as follows; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yeshua:" Does that mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth or both? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as "Messiah Yeshua" . If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yeshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38). So my thinking is that Paul is telling us to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua after his birth. That is a mind that would not consider equality with Yahweh something to be grasped; a mind that humbles itself to become of no reputation; a mind that serves others; and a mind that obeys Yahweh in all things.

But this ignores the immediate context:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

It was while "he was in the form of God" that he "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." The passage is about being humble:

Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

There simply is no greater humility than that of the pre-incarnate, eternally pre-existing Son of God, who, though he was God in nature, "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing." That is Paul's point.

If Jesus is not God, there is no salvation.

 

[jocor]

To me the context of us being like Jesus in Php 2:5 is for us to become servants to others as He did. As to us being in the form of God we were made so according to Gen 1:26. God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Who is the image of God?

I agree. So, "the form of God" does not mean he was in heaven existing as God, but that he was on earth existing as a man in God's image. However, it goes beyond that to him existing with the same character as the only true God.

You said, “If Yeshua pre-existed . .” I have no idea where you’re coming from now. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I believe John 17:5 is being misunderstood. There is no doubt that Yeshua existed before his birth, but was that a literal existence as a heavenly being or a figurative existence in Yahweh's plan of salvation? I believe it is figurative.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Messiah Yeshua before the world began,
​

Were we literally pre-existing when we were given this grace before the world began?

Eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

Were we literally pre-existing when we were chosen before the world began?

Yeshua was in the Father's plan of salvation before creation. He was glorified in that plan as the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8) In John 17:5 he is praying to his Father (the only true God), to bring that plan to fruition by literally glorifying him with that the glory he had in that plan that existed before the world was.

 

[jocor]

But this ignores the immediate context:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

It was while "he was in the form of God" that he "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped." The passage is about being humble:

I agree that he was "in the form of God" when he "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" and humbled himself.

Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

There simply is no greater humility than that of the pre-incarnate, eternally pre-existing Son of God, who, though he was God in nature, "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing." That is Paul's point.

I think you are assuming three things; 1) That the passage must be about "no greater humility" and 2) That Yeshua was "God in nature" and 3) That he pre-existed as a literal being in heaven.

If he was "God in nature," then he could not die, for immortality is part of God's nature.

If Jesus is not God, there is no salvation.

I disagree. What was required for salvation was an unblemished blood sacrifice, ie; a sinless man. Nothing in Scripture says God had to die.

 

[Eugene]

I agree. So, "the form of God" does not mean he was in heaven existing as God, but that he was on earth existing as a man in God's image. However, it goes beyond that to him existing with the same character as the only true God.



I believe John 17:5 is being misunderstood. There is no doubt that Yeshua existed before his birth, but was that a literal existence as a heavenly being or a figurative existence in Yahweh's plan of salvation? I believe it is figurative.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Messiah Yeshua before the world began,
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Were we literally pre-existing when we were given this grace before the world began?

Eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
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Were we literally pre-existing when we were chosen before the world began?

Yeshua was in the Father's plan of salvation before creation. He was glorified in that plan as the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8) In John 17:5 he is praying to his Father (the only true God), to bring that plan to fruition by literally glorifying him with that the glory he had in that plan that existed before the world was.

I have no idea of your church background, but I disagree completely with your thinking concerning Christ being no more than us in the forethought of God. Do you know of some church that beleives as you do? Jesus has always been God, and will always be.

 

[jocor]

I have no idea of your church background, but I disagree completely with your thinking concerning Christ being no more than us in the forethought of God. Do you know of some church that beleives as you do?

I started out Roman Catholic, then born again Christian. As I study the Word and embrace certain doctrines that I see in Scripture, it separates me more and more from mainline Christianity. My beliefs even separate me from Messianic groups. There are other groups that believe like me theologically, but they don't keep Yahweh's commandments, so I never felt led to join them. When I am confronted by a teaching that is new to me, I compare it against the Word and either reject it or embrace it. What I believe now is what I see to be the stronger Scriptural positions.

I did not say Yeshua is "no more than a forethought of God". He is far more than that. He is Yahweh's spoken words and thoughts made flesh. He came from within the Father and down from heaven. We are mere earthlings.

Jesus has always been God, and will always be.

I would say, "Yeshua has always been an elohim, and will always be." When you study how the words elohim and theos were used throughout Scripture, you need to then decide how that applies to Yeshua. Since I believe Yeshua's words that his Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3), I have no choice but to understand that the Son is not "God" in the same sense that his Father is. He is "god" in the sense that the mighty men of Israel were "gods" (elohim) (Psalm 82:6).

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hello all,

I am hoping this question isn't too simplistic in nature. I am interested to know if there is any significance to the words 'I AM' spoken by God and written in upper case letters in the old testament. However, in the new testament when Jesus says 'I am' this is no longer written in upper case. I am interested as this may prove a strong foundation for me to grasp the Trinity.

I have been struggling to find an answer to this question for a while now.

Thanks heaps in advance

Pat

The God of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ "The Lord thy God" When Genesis speaks of God walking in the Garden of Eden, it was Jesus that was walking in the Garden. In the creation of the world, it was Jesus and the Holy Ghost (Spirit of God) that created the Earth.
now concerning the trinity, i have written an article on that click on my website below, scroll through all the article and click on the article that says Trinity

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

email: DiscipleDave@discipledave.com
website: http://DiscipleDave.com/Index.html