I don't trust dreams

[Alfred Persson]

You have no evidence to prove that it was Satan except the fact that the outcome of what Samuel had said was 3 days off? So it must be from Satan? Yet the actual prophecy he spoke was fulfilled.
The word "tomorrow" used in 1 Sam. 28:19 is Machar 4279
Strong's Lexicon
machar: Tomorrow, in time to come, in the future
Original Word: מָחָר
Pronunciation: mah-khar'
Definition: Tomorrow, in time to come, in the future
Meaning: deferred, the morrow, tomorrow, hereafter

The word "tomorrow" used in this case indicates time to come rather than that very day. Your argument here is moot..

I concede the point, that "tomorrow" is ambiguous. I appeal to the entire context for support.

God forbade necromancy.

#1)When listing why a loving God would forbid the living from speaking to their departed loved ones, the most likely reason is "its impossible to speak to them but an evil spirit will pretend to be them, to deceive the living." Otherwise, a loving God would allow it.

#2) As the text repeats, God wasn't talking to Saul through His prophets it logically follows the "prophet" claiming to be "Samuel" is NOT one of God's prophets.

2a)This is confirmed by the medium identifying the apparition as an "Elohim", that is "a god." Samuel is not "a god", "Elohim." Therefore, the text rules out its Samuel speaking.

The prediction "tomorrow you will be with me" is ambiguous (as you pointed out), but the tenor of the context lends little weight to the idea this means "in the coming days" or "in the future" you will die. That interpretation seems to diminish "the prophecy." Imminency of God's judgment is the point.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Count you said and you can't . Now you want to change the subject , I understand .

I'm not changing the subject. I listed my reasons and asked you a simple question.

Can you list one time a dream is cited for doctrine in scripture?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Again, I agree scripture says God used dreams to communicate. But I also claim of the 40 authors of scripture books, only a few claimed dreams and even then they don't claim it was a daily occurrence. They recount them as a rare event.

This argument is based on conjecture. Do you believe the only miracles that occurred in Jesus' ministry or that of the apostles were all recorded in scripture, and that none other occurred than what is listed, yes or no?

None of my "supernaturally inspired dreams", and I have had these, were "of God"

Then this is a spiritual problem, Alfred. If the only things you are receiving are demonic, that should be patently obvious to you, and I mean no offense, but by your own admission what you are saying here is exceedingly worrisome. The above is only the case with people who in a very bad place spiritually.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This argument is based on conjecture. Do you believe the only miracles that occurred in Jesus' ministry or that of the apostles were all recorded in scripture, and that none other occurred than what is listed, yes or no?


Then this is a spiritual problem, Alfred. If the only things you are receiving are demonic, that should be patently obvious to you, and I mean no offense, but by your own admission what you are saying here is exceedingly worrisome. The above is only the case with people who in a very bad place spiritually.

Not "conjecture". Induction. I believe the entire Bible, therefore all the miracles throughout scripture. I never claimed the Bible lists everything God does miraculously. It contradicts scripture to claim that:

And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25 NKJ)

I agree I have a "spiritual problem". Like Paul I am under constant satanic attack, and like Paul my prayers to Jesus my Lord to free me of it, have been denied:

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2 Cor. 12:7-9 NKJ)

Unlike Paul, the satanic attack is telepathic, through spurious dreams visions and voices trying to subvert my faith in Jesus, from trusting Scripture 100% for God's truth.

Its an ever present reality, an abomination that won't cease.

The Holy Spirit says the testing is purifying me, but I hate it. The constant temptations to rebel against God are insufferable, an abomination.

All who choose them are an abomination:

Indeed you are nothing, And your work is nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination. (Isa. 41:24 NKJ)

I have prayed often, in tears for God to deliver me. He assures me, when the time is right He will. My eyes will see the glory of the LORD.

 

[Hidden In Him]

As for the Medium, you ask why she "freaked out". She expected "to see a human spirit", instead she saw an elohim. That is what angels are:

And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being (0430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym) coming up out of the earth." (1 Sam. 28:13 NAS)

THEREFORE, It wasn't Samuel's spirit, he is not a divine being. Simple logic, not "LOL" unless one is irrational, laughing out loud like some loon in an asylum.

Alfred, you are making bad assumptions again. The Greek has the same thing. Θεοὺς ἑόρακα ἀναβαίνοντας ἐκ τῆς γῆς, meaning angels, which is what she would have described them as "gods". But Samuel came with them, look at the next verse. "And she said to him, An upright man ascending out of the earth, and he is clothed with a mantle." And Saul knew that this was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the earth, and did obeisance to him. That is not an angel, Alfred. The texts clearly state he was not a god but a man. You read one verse correctly and then ignore the next, which leads to bad interpretation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree I have a "spiritual problem". Like Paul I am under constant satanic attack, and like Paul my prayers to Jesus my Lord to free me of it, have been denied:

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2 Cor. 12:7-9 NKJ)

Unlike Paul, the satanic attack is telepathic, through spurious dreams visions and voices trying to subvert my faith in Jesus, from trusting Scripture 100% for God's truth. Its an ever present reality, an abomination that won't cease.

The Holy Spirit says the testing is purifying me, but I hate it. The constant temptations to rebel against God are insufferable, an abomination. All who choose them are an abomination:

Alfred, if you cannot hear from God but only from Satan in this manner, that is a problem, and I mean you no offense. And by the way, I didn't mean my "LoL" to be taken so harshly. I was not mocking you. I found things a little humorous but I can do that without being disrespectful in my intent. Sometimes it gets taken in the wrong way, and if so I apologize. But the apostle Paul received visions and dreams from God, and a LOT of them. If you only receive them from Satan your analogy does not hold here, I'm sorry. He received numerous visitations, dreams and visions, and none of them listed in scripture were from Satan.

There is a problem here, and you are defending the problem rather than perceiving it as one, which is compounding it. It is likely why your interpretations here are also so inaccurate. It is one thing to rely only on scripture, and I have brethren who do this. But if you do this, you need to interpret the word accurately, because that is all you have. You are willfully closing the door on the Lord speaking to you any other way. As for this business with the demons, again I would say that is deeply problematic. I'm going to assume and hope that you are only exaggerating there, because the only people I have ever seen where this was true were people who were deeply demonically oppressed.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred, you are making bad assumptions again. The Greek has the same thing. Θεοὺς ἑόρακα ἀναβαίνοντας ἐκ τῆς γῆς, meaning angels, which is what she would have described them as "gods". But Samuel came with them, look at the next verse. "And she said to him, An upright man ascending out of the earth, and he is clothed with a mantle." And Saul knew that this was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the earth, and did obeisance to him. That is not an angel, Alfred. The texts clearly state he was not a god but a man. You read one verse correctly and then ignore the next, which leads to bad interpretation.

Irrelevant how Saul interpreted the woman's "vision" of Samuel. While "Saul knew" from the demon's disguise, She knew it wasn't a human soul. That is clear in both the Masoretic and Septuagint texts.

The woman never says its Samuel.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred, if you cannot hear from God but only from Satan in this manner, that is a problem, and I mean you no offense. And by the way, I didn't mean my "LoL" to be taken so harshly. I was not mocking you. I found things a little humorous but I can do that without being disrespectful in my intent. Sometimes it gets taken in the wrong way, and if so I apologize. But the apostle Paul received visions and dreams from God, and a LOT of them. If you only receive them from Satan your analogy does not hold here, I'm sorry. He received numerous visitations, dreams and visions, and none of them listed in scripture were from Satan.

There is a problem here, and you are defending the problem rather than perceiving it as one, which is compounding it. It is likely why your interpretations here are also so inaccurate. It is one thing to rely only on scripture, and I have brethren who do this. But if you do this, you need to interpret the word accurately, because that is all you have. You are willfully closing the door on the Lord speaking to you any other way. As for this business with the demons, again I would say that is deeply problematic. I'm going to assume and hope that you are only exaggerating there, because the only people I have ever seen where this was true were people who were deeply demonically oppressed.

I am "tempted" by false visions, dreams and voices, I don't receive or believe them.

God the Holy Spirit rests upon me, like warm oil on the face of my inner man, the new creature. 24/7. He never leaves me or forsakes me.

Although one of the Lord's anointed, I am NOT a prophet who hears God speak directly to prophesy.

Through the Scripture is how God teaches me. As I diligently study it, and consult the teachers God has place in the church, I learn the truth. I do not learn the truth of God by supernatural experiences, I learn it by reading my Bible.

Satan has intensified his attacks recently, its always present. I hate it, but am powerless to stop it.

I begged my Lord Jesus, Yahweh God the Eternal Son to drive them away, and the Holy Spirit in me responded this is to purify me. To strengthen and empower me.

I do concede I am getting stronger in the LORD daily because of it.

But I hate it.

It is slander to think I bring this on myself, blaming the victim instead of the perp.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The woman never says its Samuel.

The word of God does! Which was my very first point to you.

15 And Samuel said, Why hast thou troubled me, that I should come up? And Saul said, I am greatly distressed, and the Philistines war against me, and God has departed from me, and no longer hearkens to me either by the hand of the prophets or by dreams: and now I have called thee to tell me what I shall do. 16 And Samuel said, Why askest thou me, whereas the Lord has departed from thee, and taken part with thy neighbour? 17 And the Lord has done to thee, as the Lord spoke by me; and the Lord will rend thy kingdom out of thy hand, and will give it to thy neighbour David. 18 because thou didst not hearken to the voice of the Lord, and didst not execute his fierce anger upon Amalec, therefore the Lord has done this thing to thee this day. 19 And the Lord shall deliver Israel with thee into the hands of the Philistines, and to-morrow thou and thy sons with thee shall fall, and the Lord shall deliver the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines. 20 And Saul instantly fell at his full length upon the earth, and was greatly afraid because of the words of Samuel; and there was no longer any strength in him, for he had eaten no bread all that day, and all that night.

The word of God says Samuel said these words, not some demon. And it says that the words spoken to Saul were the words of Samuel. Alfred, the minute the written word contradicts your argument it becomes irrelevant. Until then it carries weight, and that is not sound interpretation. I'm sorry.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am "tempted" by false visions, dreams and voices, I don't receive or believe them.

God the Holy Spirit rests upon me, like warm oil on the face of my inner man, the new creature. 24/7. He never leaves me or forsakes me.

But I am NOT a prophet. Through the Scripture is how God talks to me, teaches me. As I diligently study it, and consult the teachers God has place in the church, I learn the truth. I do not learn the truth of God by supernatural experiences, I learn it by reading my Bible.

Satan has intensified his attacks recently, its always present. I hate it, but am powerless to stop it.

I begged my Lord Jesus, Yahweh God the Eternal Son to drive them away, and the Holy Spirit in me responded this is to purify me.

I do concede I am getting stronger in the LORD daily because of it.

But I hate it.

It is slander to think I bring this on myself, blaming the victim instead of the perp.

Well seek God about it, and I am with you not against you. But things should not be so...

I know you had bad Pentecostal experiences from previous conversations, and I certainly don't condone any of that. There are indeed Satanists and witches who can masquerade and lay hands on the saints. I have a brother who struggles because of negative spiritual influences. But you fight against these things. You do not dismiss what God intended to be a gift by simply categorizing all supernatural phenomenon of a certain type as being demonic today. That is going too far.

Blessings, and I will pray for you. And my apologies again for coming off as condescending. That was not my intent.

In Christ,
Hidden

 

[Alfred Persson]

Well seek God about it, and I am with you not against you. But things should not be so...

I know you had bad Pentecostal experiences from previous conversations, and I certainly don't condone any of that. There are indeed Satanists and witches who can masquerade and lay hands on the saints. I have a brother who struggles because of negative spiritual influences. But you fight against these things. You do not dismiss what God intended to be a gift by simply categorizing all supernatural phenomenon of a certain type as being demonic today. That is going too far.

Blessings, and I will pray for you. And my apologies again for coming off as condescending. That was not my intent.

In Christ,
Hidden

Apologies accepted and thank you from my heart, for your prayers.

Some of the most effective Christians laboring for Christ are "Pentecostals", so I am not "anti-Pentecostal" at all. God will sort everything out, in His time.

I am for the Bible, the Word of God. It should be above our experiences. If we experience something that contradicts the Bible, its the Bible that is true. We can infer that from this:

Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."
(Rom. 3:4 NKJ)

 

[hawkman]

I'm not changing the subject. I listed my reasons and asked you a simple question.

Can you list one time a dream is cited for doctrine in scripture?

You make claims with nothing to back it up , see post #18 , you did not answer my questions .
Answer my questions and we can proceed , up to you .

 

[Angelina]

God forbade necromancy.

#1)When listing why a loving God would forbid the living from speaking to their departed loved ones, the most likely reason is "its impossible to speak to them but an evil spirit will pretend to be them, to deceive the living." Otherwise, a loving God would allow it.

#2) As the text repeats, God wasn't talking to Saul through His prophets it logically follows the "prophet" claiming to be "Samuel" is NOT one of God's prophets.

2a)This is confirmed by the medium identifying the apparition as an "Elohim", that is "a god." Samuel is not "a god", "Elohim." Therefore, the text rules out its Samuel speaking.

Yes, he did forbid these things. Not because Satan can use them against believers but because they are an abomination in his sight because he is holy and they are a source that is not coming from the Holy Spirit.
Your premise in point no. 2 does not make any logical sense; otherwise, the text would read that another spirit rose up claiming to be Samuel...said "blah blah " because the Lord would not want any of his people to misinterpret scripture. Samuel was still God's prophet even when he was in his grave.

2a, The use of Elohim here may be because she was a witch and saw Samuel as a God. Other biblical texts say that she saw a spirit.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Well seek God about it, and I am with you not against you. But things should not be so...

I know you had bad Pentecostal experiences from previous conversations, and I certainly don't condone any of that. There are indeed Satanists and witches who can masquerade and lay hands on the saints. I have a brother who struggles because of negative spiritual influences. But you fight against these things. You do not dismiss what God intended to be a gift by simply categorizing all supernatural phenomenon of a certain type as being demonic today. That is going too far.

Blessings, and I will pray for you. And my apologies again for coming off as condescending. That was not my intent.

In Christ,
Hidden

Before leaving this, I will explain something some miss until its spiritually revealed, but scripture states it plainly. In the New Heavens and Earth the redeemed will be in God, and God in them, in perfect love. We will enjoy eternity, with God in us, experiencing everything in loving communion with Him.

I first realized this when I read this and realized we will be worshipping God in this Temple:
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Rev. 21:22 NKJ)

Our LORD Jesus stated this plainly:
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (Jn. 17:20-23 NKJ)

This is why the "apostle of love" John says this:

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us. (1 Jn. 4:18-19 NKJ)

Perfect love is "unselfish love". We are being transformed by the Holy Spirit into "perfect lovers" of God, who already "perfectly loves" us.

That is what Satan attacks through his temptations, and lies. Satan constantly tempts us to be like the Pharisees, have only "selfish transactional love" for God, always looking for a reward for what they did.

Satan has deluged me with attempts at ruining my love for God, so I become "disapproved" somehow. But through it all God has used this too purify, and strengthen my perfect love for God. I want nothing from God but that He live in me, and I in Him as His child, enjoying His Creation in Him.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Here's examples of Dreams I would trust:

Again, I repeat my limited Cessationist position, that in the very End Time God's Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, and dreams prophecy etc. will be abundant. The early Christian experience was just a preview of will be during Christ's parousia:

17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
(Acts 2:17-21 NKJ)


This could be happening now.

 

[Johann!@#]

I concede the point, that "tomorrow" is ambiguous. I appeal to the entire context for support.

God forbade necromancy.

#1)When listing why a loving God would forbid the living from speaking to their departed loved ones, the most likely reason is "its impossible to speak to them but an evil spirit will pretend to be them, to deceive the living." Otherwise, a loving God would allow it.

#2) As the text repeats, God wasn't talking to Saul through His prophets it logically follows the "prophet" claiming to be "Samuel" is NOT one of God's prophets.

2a)This is confirmed by the medium identifying the apparition as an "Elohim", that is "a god." Samuel is not "a god", "Elohim." Therefore, the text rules out its Samuel speaking.

The prediction "tomorrow you will be with me" is ambiguous (as you pointed out), but the tenor of the context lends little weight to the idea this means "in the coming days" or "in the future" you will die. That interpretation seems to diminish "the prophecy." Imminency of God's judgment is the point.

You're not alone in this--same here, brother. Everything must be tested by the Word of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 says, “But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.”
1 John 4:1 reminds us, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

Have you ever heard of Justin Peters? He’s done extensive work exposing false signs and wonders, especially in the modern Charismatic and Word of Faith movements. His insights are grounded in Scripture and very helpful for discernment.

Here’s a good place to start:
Justin Peters – “Clouds Without Water” (Full Seminar)

Highly recommend giving it a watch. It sheds a lot of light on what’s happening in the name of the Spirit that simply doesn’t line up with Scripture.

Johann.

 

[jasonc]

did someone imply making doctrine based on dreams ?

I wouldn't .

 

[Hidden In Him]

did someone imply making doctrine based on dreams ?

I wouldn't .

The preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles was preceded by a vision, Paul's trip to 3rd Heaven formed the basis of a great deal of the revelation he received, and the entire Book of Revelation IS a vision.

If no doctrines should be formed as a result of dreams and visions, Jason, then we need to throw everything out except the gospels.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You're not alone in this--same here, brother. Everything must be tested by the Word of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 says, “But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.”
1 John 4:1 reminds us, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

Have you ever heard of Justin Peters? He’s done extensive work exposing false signs and wonders, especially in the modern Charismatic and Word of Faith movements. His insights are grounded in Scripture and very helpful for discernment.

Here’s a good place to start:
Justin Peters – “Clouds Without Water” (Full Seminar)

Highly recommend giving it a watch. It sheds a lot of light on what’s happening in the name of the Spirit that simply doesn’t line up with Scripture.

Johann.

Peter's investigations are those of a layman, not a scientist. Not everything can be ruled out:

I described my position as being "limited Cessationism" because scripture clearly links these supernatural signs with Christ's coming, and we now know there are two advents. Therefore, two major manifestations of these things.

But its impossible to rule out God using these things, whenever He chooses...like healing:

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
(Jas. 5:14-15 NKJ)

I would claim God always heals, whether in this life or in the resurrection. Healing may be separate from supernatural revelation, the latter could cease (now that we have Scripture revelation) and divine healing still occur.


From the OT its evident God's supernatural acts vary in occurrences, sometimes seeming to have ceased only to latter explode, as in the 400 years before Christ, and then explode in the 1st century.

I'm not an arbiter of religious experience. Scripture is silent on what one "feels", but definitely states "good fruit" is the result of the Presence of the Holy Spirit. That's obedience to the Word of God, and acts done in love for God and our fellow human beings. That never ceases, never ebbs or flows.

So we agree much isn't of God, but I think its possible "some is", mirroring what we see in the New Testament during the First Parousia of our LORD Jesus.

And I do expect it to "explode" in the last week of 7 years in the end time, just as prophecy says will happen:

17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
(Acts 2:17-21 NKJ)

I think the arrival of God's two witnesses heralds the beginning of this last "week of 7 years" revealed in the book of Revelation. The "two olive trees and two lampstands" is where the oil for the lamps of God flows, symbolizing the release of the Holy Spirit to illuminate the earth with God's truth, through dreams prophecy and supernatural knowledge.

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. (Rev. 11:3-4 NKJ)

 

[jasonc]

The preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles was preceded by a vision, Paul's trip to 3rd Heaven formed the basis of a great deal of the revelation he received, and the entire Book of Revelation IS a vision.

If no doctrines should be formed as a result of dreams and visions, Jason, then we need to throw everything out except the gospels.

then the bible isn't closed ,it's always subject to change and yet the bible as. book hasn't been added to by any vision ,

how does one drop as though dead in a dream .I often die in my dreams . war ,of those unusual horror ones I get . I will look upon myself ,see myself dead .

know I'm not .John saw Jesus fell as if dead.thats more then a dream .

I would be wary of trusting the myriad of charismatic churches that build a block from each other to be unison on a new vision of a doctrine .


look there is much you don't know that I have seen or done in charismatic things ..

overseas I saw visions of my wife sinning.shr never cheated on me but it did involved drugs .things her daughter and later she admitted to doing . I saw her as If I was in heaven .I had word of knowledge of men with me that I didn't fully understand until after wards what was sent to me about them not dying and no one dying overseas in my unit from the enemy or by accident since it was told .we lost one before due to an accident .

not once did the wife of the man of God at my church of the time as he was long dead .he started the church teach to base doctrine on a vision .

especially with eschatology.

this sounds like the n a r line of thought .

What Do We Do with Dreams and Visions? |

probably isn't too far off .