I don't trust dreams

[Hidden In Him]

then the bible isn't closed ,it's always subject to change and yet the bible as. book hasn't been added to by any vision

No one argues that the Bible is somehow now open just because visions and dreams are still being used by God, Jason. That's a straw man. The same argument could be used to say "The Holy Spirit no longer speaks to anyone today or the Bible isn't closed." Neither are good things to teach people.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What Do We Do with Dreams and Visions? |
probably isn't too far off .

Makes a number of misleading statements and false assumptions.

1. When looking at Joel 2:28, I noted these observations, “When reflecting on this particular verse in Acts, it is interesting to note that there is little mention of the occurrence of dreams in the early church coinciding with this verse. Other than the account in Acts 16:9 of Paul’s night vision of the Macedonian man urging Paul to come and help them, there are no other New Testament passages (in Acts) mentioning the occurrence of dreams. Therefore, it would appear that this reference to visions and dreams found in Acts 2:17 and Joel 2:28 is referencing a time to come coinciding with the Day of the Lord.”

The writer here isolates the Book of Acts from the rest of the entire New Testament to make his case; a case he/ she can't prove otherwise. He also isolates out dreams alone in this statement, even though the article is clearly about dreams and visions. Again this is done to sell a statement that would otherwise not hold the least amount of water if he were being consistent with the subject matter he is addressing, which is included in the title.

2. Even the dreams found in Scripture pointed back to the sovereignty and glory of God in every situation.

- How did God warning Abimilek that he had taken a married woman point back to Christ?
3 But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman.” (Genesis 20:3)

- How did the cup bearer and butler's dreams point back to Christ?
5 Then the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, who were confined in the prison, had a dream, both of them, each man's dream in one night and each man's dream with its own interpretation. 6 And Joseph came in to them in the morning and looked at them, and saw that they were sad. 7 So he asked Pharaoh's officers who were with him in the custody of his lord's house, saying, "Why do you look so sad today?" 8 And they said to him, "We each have had a dream, and there is no interpreter of it." So Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell them to me, please." 9 Then the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, "Behold, in my dream a vine was before me, 10 and in the vine were three branches; it was as though it budded, its blossoms shot forth, and its clusters brought forth ripe grapes. 11 Then Pharaoh's cup was in my hand; and I took the grapes and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and placed the cup in Pharaoh's hand." (Genesis 40:5-11)

- How did Pharaoh's dream point back to Christ?
1 Then it came to pass, at the end of two full years, that Pharaoh had a dream; and behold, he stood by the river. 2 Suddenly there came up out of the river seven cows, fine looking and fat; and they fed in the meadow. 3 Then behold, seven other cows came up after them out of the river, ugly and gaunt, and stood by the other cows on the bank of the river. 4 And the ugly and gaunt cows ate up the seven fine looking and fat cows. So Pharaoh awoke. 5 He slept and dreamed a second time; and suddenly seven heads of grain came up on one stalk, plump and good. 6 Then behold, seven thin heads, blighted by the east wind, sprang up after them. 7 And the seven thin heads devoured the seven plump and full heads. So Pharaoh awoke, and indeed, it was a dream. (Genesis 41:1-7)

Virtually every statement made in this piece is either blatantly false or a straw man, such as the following, which is classic Cessationist speak.

"Although dreams were given on occasion to particular individuals, the descriptions of those accounts do not equate to being prescriptive in our lives as believers in Christ. We are not instructed to seek such experiences in order to be a follower of Jesus Christ."

This is a blatant straw man argument. I have never heard any Pentecostal in my entire life argue that a believer must receive dreams or visions in order to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Ever. It's not sound exegesis, nor is it a fair representation of Pentecostal beliefs. And that was just at a glance. I could take the entire article apart if I had to.

 

[Hidden In Him]

that is where doctrine,so then that what is new doctrine and yes the new apostolic reformation does teach that .

I know they do .my pastor is well versed in that false hood

you said in response if we can't base doctrine on visions and used johns vision
John saw things Isiah ,Daniel ,and Ezekiel ,and Moses on what was in heaven .it wasn't out of the blue.it was expanded upon but see the four living creatures in Isiah and Ezekiel .

Daniel sees things similar as well .
that said those aren't doctrines that were changed .

if I see a need to go preach there ,that isn't a doctrine but a calling to go there .


doctrine are the Trinity ,salvation ,sacraments ,eschatology fits but it is not defined as only that one view only that Jesus returns to judge the world and the end of sin

unless you want to claim that a vision of a millennial reign is then doctrine .I wouldn't. I have been amil ,pre mil and back again . not a place to make such a stance .

you once claimed a vision of America flags being trampled and implied that the flag implies that the govt was a Christian one

the first amendment is where in the kingdom of God ?

I have a right to deny God in heaven ,to serve and encourage sin ?

yet the first amendment allows that .

doesn't mean God was using the nation .just well that's another thread .

If you wish me to refute Cessationist arguments, send me another article like the one above and I will do so. They are nearly all poorly reasoned, but at least they are clearly written. No offense, Jason, but I can't comment on statements that appear to be just a jumble of words. It will slow up the thread if I have to ask you between 7-8 questions just to clarify the statements in your post. Nothing personal, and I would like to respond, but you need to make your points more legible than the above.

Blessings,
- H

 

[Johann!@#]

So we agree much isn't of God, but I think its possible "some is", mirroring what we see in the New Testament during the First Parousia of our LORD Jesus.

Alfred.

Deuteronomy 13:1–3
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

→ Even true signs can accompany false messages to test fidelity to God's Word.

Isaiah 8:19–20
"When they say to you, ‘Consult the mediums and the spiritists...’ should not a people consult their God? ...If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn."
→ The people sought supernatural insight, but rejected the Word of God.

Ezekiel 14:9–10
"If the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I the LORD have deceived that prophet... they will bear the punishment of their iniquity."
→ God gives people over to deception when their hearts are already estranged from Him.

New Testament – Seeking Signs and Falling into Deception

Matthew 12:38–39
"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.’ But He answered and said to them, ‘An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet.’"

→
A craving for signs is equated with spiritual adultery and unbelief.

John
6:26
"Jesus answered them and said, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.’"

→ They sought signs not to know Christ, but to satisfy earthly desires.

2 Thessalonians 2:9–12
"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception... because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false..."

→ False signs deceive those who do not love the truth.

Revelation 13:13–14
"He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs..."

→ The Beast deceives the world through dramatic signs, mimicking divine acts.

Matthew 24:24
"For false christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."

→ Miraculous signs are no guarantee of truth—they can be used to mislead.

Acts 8:9–11
“Now a man named Simon had formerly been practicing magic... and he was astonishing the people of Samaria... and they all paid attention to him because he had for a long time astonished them with his magic arts.”

→ People were captivated by miraculous acts and deceived by sorcery.

1 Corinthians 1:22–23
"For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block..."

→ The gospel is not built on sign-seeking, but on Christ crucified.

J.

 

[hawkman]

Deuteronomy 13:1–3
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

I would ask you Johann!@# what are you hoping to accomplish by editing this scripture ? Do you think that is a good idea ?

1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

 

[Johann!@#]

I would ask you Johann!@# what are you hoping to accomplish by editing this scripture ? Do you think that is a good idea ?

1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

There are no more prophets running around hawkman and the "mantle" is not passed on.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Thanks.

J.

 

[hawkman]

There are no more prophets running around hawkman and the "mantle" is not passed on.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Thanks.

J.

You edited the scripture Johann!@# . Do you understand you are NOT to do that !

 

[Johann!@#]

You edited the scripture Johann!@# . Do you understand you are NOT to do that !

By doing this?!

Deuteronomy 13:1–3
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Show me where is this "editing?!"

J.

 

[Free]

By doing this?!

Deuteronomy 13:1–3
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Show me where is this "editing?!"

J.

You left out a very important piece of the verse, which forms the context for not listening to the prophet or dreamer:

Deu 13:2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ (ESV)

 

[hawkman]

By doing this?!

Deuteronomy 13:1–3
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Show me where is this "editing?!"

J.

You left out this passage from the verses .

whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;”

 

[Free]

The preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles was preceded by a vision, Paul's trip to 3rd Heaven formed the basis of a great deal of the revelation he received, and the entire Book of Revelation IS a vision.

If no doctrines should be formed as a result of dreams and visions, Jason, then we need to throw everything out except the gospels.

The issue is that what Paul wrote was descriptive of something that happened to him, as an Apostle, for a specific purpose, and he wrote about it under the inspiration of the Spirit. What it is not is prescriptive or normative for the Christian experience. It is something that happened to him and it would be error to make a doctrine of his experience, that it is something all or any Christian can have. Since Scripture is closed, there can be no new doctrine.

 

[Johann!@#]

You left out a very important piece of the verse, which forms the context for not listening to the prophet or dreamer:

Deu 13:2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ (ESV)

That was my post, and I trust that everyone here has access to a Bible. Free

Matthew 12:38–39
"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.’ But He answered and said to them, ‘An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet.’"
→ A craving for signs is equated with spiritual adultery and unbelief.

John 6:26
"Jesus answered them and said, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.’"
→ They sought signs not to know Christ, but to satisfy earthly desires.

2 Thessalonians 2:9–12
"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception... because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false..."
→ False signs deceive those who do not love the truth.

Revelation 13:13–14
"He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs..."
→ The Beast deceives the world through dramatic signs, mimicking divine acts.

Matthew 24:24
"For false christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."
→ Miraculous signs are no guarantee of truth—they can be used to mislead.

Acts 8:9–11
“Now a man named Simon had formerly been practicing magic... and he was astonishing the people of Samaria... and they all paid attention to him because he had for a long time astonished them with his magic arts.”
→ People were captivated by miraculous acts and deceived by sorcery.

1 Corinthians 1:22–23
"For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block..."
→ The gospel is not built on sign-seeking, but on Christ crucified.

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

The issue is that what Paul wrote was descriptive of something that happened to him, as an Apostle, for a specific purpose, and he wrote about it under the inspiration of the Spirit. What it is not is prescriptive or normative for the Christian experience. It is something that happened to him and it would be error to make a doctrine of his experience, that it is something all or any Christian can have. Since Scripture is closed, there can be no new doctrine.

--or new revelation, but illumination by the Holy Spirit.

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

You left out this passage from the verses .

whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;”

hawkman, I kindly ask you to consider the context of my post.

It’s genuinely troubling when Charismatics impose their personal experiences on young or immature believers, making them feel less spiritual--or even unwelcome--if they haven’t had the same so-called “supernatural” encounters.

I realize saying this may not sit well with some, and it might get me into hot water, but it needs to be said: this is the truth, and it’s harming the body.

Just my 2 cents.

J.

 

[hawkman]

That was my post, and I trust that everyone here has access to a Bible.

Yes , your post left out words that should be there ! WHY did you do that Johann!@# ?

Deuteronomy 13:1–3
"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true... you shall not listen to the words of that prophet... for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

It is certainly a good thing we all have a bible but that does not give you license to edit and post your own version of scripture . Three little dots ... is not the thing to do .
whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;”

 

[hawkman]

hawkman, I kindly ask you to consider the context of my post.

It’s genuinely troubling when Charismatics impose their personal experiences on young or immature believers, making them feel less spiritual--or even unwelcome--if they haven’t had the same so-called “supernatural” encounters.

I realize saying this may not sit well with some, and it might get me into hot water, but it needs to be said: this is the truth, and it’s harming the body.

Just my 2 cents.

J.

That is not it . You left out words that were in the verse which altered the thoughts conveyed to us !

 

[Johann!@#]

Yes , your post left out words that should be there ! WHY did you do that Johann!@# ?



It is certainly a good thing we all have a bible but that does not give you license to edit and post your own version of scripture . Three little dots ... is not the thing to do .
whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;”

You are making a big deal out of nothing, neglecting the context of my post.

J.

 

[hawkman]

You are making a big deal out of nothing, neglecting the context of my post.

J.

Do you have any respect for the scriptures as written in the bible ?

 

[Johann!@#]

That is not it . You left out words that were in the verse which altered the thoughts conveyed to us !

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a navi, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee an ot (sign) or a mofet (wonder),
Deu 13:2 (13:3) And the ot (sign) or the mofet (wonder) come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee, saying, Let us go after elohim acherim, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 (13:4) Thou shalt not give heed unto the devarim of that navi, or that dreamer of dreams; for Hashem Eloheichem is testing you, to know whether ye love Hashem Eloheichem with all your lev and with all your nefesh.
Deu 13:4 (13:5) Ye shall walk after Hashem Eloheichem, and fear Him, and be shomer over His mitzvot, and obey His voice, and ye shall serve Him, and have deveykus unto Him.
Deu 13:5 (13:6) And that navi, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from Hashem Eloheichem, which brought you out of Eretz Mitzrayim, and redeemed you out of the bais avadim, to entice thee from HaDerech which Hashem Eloheicha commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put harah away from the midst of thee.
OJB

Feeling better?

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Do you have any respect for the scriptures as written in the bible ?

I beg your pardon!

J.