Bible Study 'I give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven'

[GodsGrace]

My response: We're not on the phone and I don't know how to respond by typing out an answer to every question that occurs. Pardon me, I'm not ignoring except by necessity. Eventually we'll get to use mass media devices that will allow face-to-face like the big-boys do in their business meetings, right?

Gee,,,I don't really understand this reply!

You mean...you have some answers already typed out??

I didn't mean that you were ignoring anything or anyone...
I've just never seen this before....

It might become a problem when persons try to answer you.

 

[Sparkey]

It might become a problem when persons try to answer you.

Not a problem to me. Well, not one that I'm not prepared to handle. If an impertinent member (not you, an imaginary foe) insisted that I answer, there is always an /ignore command. Problem solved.


My preference is to speak with Grace seasoned in. It's called give and take, right? By way of explanation you may not know but I've been online since the days before the internet. We used to hook up by modem over analog signals. That's back when the words "hook up" mean the 'hook switch' upon which our old style phones were cradled. We had rotary dials. No buttons. Wild and Woolly days they were (and to an extent still are). Yahoo Christian chat (a different interface) had not been invented. There are a couple of us "old timers" that hang on still. Different experiences. It's okay to make allowances. Consider me as a member of a differing culture, if you please.

I'll try to be aware that we are guests in another persons thread. I don't wish to overburden this thread. I'm not the OP and it simply is not within my perogative. In the future, if you would like, we can open Private messages to discuss off-topic subjects like why I may like to italicize my quotes instead of letting quote marks suffice or why I might use other styling (I'm sorry if they are more 'sty-lings' to others, it's my way).

 

[GodsGrace]

Not a problem to me. Well, not one that I'm not prepared to handle. If an impertinent member (not you, an imaginary foe) insisted that I answer, there is always an /ignore command. Problem solved.


My preference is to speak with Grace seasoned in. It's called give and take, right? By way of explanation you may not know but I've been online since the days before the internet. We used to hook up by modem over analog signals. That's back when the words "hook up" mean the 'hook switch' upon which our old style phones were cradled. We had rotary dials. No buttons. Wild and Woolly days they were (and to an extent still are). Yahoo Christian chat (a different interface) had not been invented. There are a couple of us "old timers" that hang on still. Different experiences. It's okay to make allowances. Consider me as a member of a differing culture, if you please.

I came in just after that.
The phone got hooked up to the computer,,,but you could hear the phone dialing and then making that funny sound that the young'uns don't even know about.

Started out with DOS speak...little notes all over with instructions on how to do what...SLASH........

Thank you Bill Gates....!

So you remember the File Manager when we could still do what we wanted to do...
Now the computer does everything all by itself...It took some getting used to. I guess, in the end, it's better...
no more installing, executing, zipping, etc.

Yeah. We were the cowboys and indians.
Tried the first internet phone in about 1996.
Too slow....the technology just wasn't there yet.

Oh well. Memories.
And the young'uns take one look at me and think I know nothing of computers.

 

[Sparkey]

Many have differing tastes. We need to expand our thinking about our divided world. Let us remember Psalms 133 (it is only 3 verses long). It was there that the Lord commanded the blessing. Where? There, where brothers dwell in UNITY.

Some stay entirely away from the Book of Revelations and the entire subject of Eschatology. That's their choice, but I do know how it feels to open a book of arguments. This is not what the Lord intended, /bb.

One CF.net member, 1pet2_9 had noticed this and wrote in an End Times Forum thread:

5) Revelation 5:8 As he did so, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each had a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

This one has a way of turning the light bulb off in people, but it shouldn't. It says God views the prayers of God's people as sweet bowls of incense. Do not be afraid to pray: God covets your prayers. Nothing kooky about that.

He went on to quote another part of the Bible that I too love -- it about cultures and enormous crowds. It's about our reward. Every race, every tribe, every nation and every language. Gathered together. In UNITY. Waving Palm branches (reminiscent of Palm Sunday and Christ's procession into Jerusalem) but this time (does time exist there? Does it matter?) this time, it has a different ending. I hope to be there waving my branch.

Recall that this 'reveal' is/was part of the REVELATION that God gave to His son! It was given for a sign or to make known! We are joined into His ministry. The ministry of our King-Priest's service to God, our Father who adopted us for this reason. It has not even entered in to our minds what God has prepared for them who love Him. But Back to our brothers, 1pet2_9 thread-quote:

6) Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there was an enormous crowd—no one could count all the people! They were from every race, tribe, nation, and language, and they stood in front of the throne and of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.

Important verse!

Speaking of differing cultures, here's something new to me. I've never witnessed anything like it. Your Sparrow was born "white bread" in the Great Pacific Northwest.

We remember what Jesus said at the time of his last supper on earth? Luke 22:16 BibleGateway.com That was at the time of the Passover. 50 Days before the Holy Spirit was poured out on Peter and the gang of 120, gathered together in the upper room. The Last, last supper. Well, almost. We are promised another, this next time, in the KINGDOM. Okay, enough squawking from this bird.

More about 'The Shema' (Deut 6:4-9) may be learned here: The Shema

For now, it is quickly and briefly quoted as:

Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.​

 

[for_his_glory]

John 1:29-51 from vs. 29-34 John the Baptist was the first one to recognize Jesus when He came to John as he said, Behold the Lamb of God as he bore record that Jesus is the Son of God.
Vs. 37-51 the two disciples heard Jesus speak and became disciples (followers of Christ) of Jesus in who were Andrew the son of Jonas and John the son of Zebedee as after they witnessed the Holy Spirit falling on Jesus that day believed Jesus to be the Son of God. Now Andrew first found his brother Simon Peter who was the next to believe and then came Philip and then Nathaniel.

When you read Matthew 16:13-19 Simon Peter, unlike Andrew and John, did not witness Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist. Out of all the other disciples, except for Andrew and John, that were there with Jesus at Caesarea Philippi none could answer the question set before them except for Simon Peter as he was the only one who knew and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. This is the reason Jesus said "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. The rock is God and His grace by faith that the church is built upon beginning with Simon Peter who was the first one to received the keys of the kingdom of God being God's power and authority given to him/us by God's grace through faith to carry on the works of the Lord taking the Gospel message out into the world speaking with God's authority and power through the Holy Spirit that indwells us.


From 64AD - 76AD St. Linus from Tuscia, Central Tuscany was the first Pope of the Roman Catholic in Rome. theguardian.com has a list of every Pope and it list Peter as the first Pope from 30AD-64AD which is wrong as there were only Emperors, but Peter and Paul did help to establish the Christian churches in Rome as being authoritative through Christ, which is different then being authoritative to a Pope. The persecutions even to death that were brought against Christians after Peter became the first leader of the Christian church in Jerusalem was carried throughout the whole Roman Empire as what Jesus taught come against Roman paganism that still exist today.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. (Babylon here means Rome)

Peter did travel extensively with his wife, 1 Corinthians 9:5, and ministered in various Roman provinces in Asia Minor. According to tradition Peter was martyred around 64AD in Rome prior to Nero's death as being crucified upside down on a cross.

John 21:18 Jesus tells Peter how Peter is going to die by crucifixion when he is old. Peter was crucified by a martyr's death, but it is said by his request he asked the Romans (crucifixion was the form of punishment by Romans) to crucify him upside down as he humbled himself saying he was not worthy to die the same way Jesus was crucified.

Peter wrote his first letter while in Babylon (Rome) in response to the news of growing opposition to the believers in Asia Minor (Roman provinces), 1 Peter 1:6; 3:13-17; 4:12-19; 5:9, 10. Hostility and suspicion were mounting against Christians in the Roman Empire and they were being reviled and abused for their lifestyles and subversive talk about another kingdom.

Christianity had not yet received the official Roman ban, but the stage was being set for the persecution and martyrdom of the near future. The martyrdom of many Christians in the Roman Empire occurred over two centuries beginning with the great fire of Rome in 64AD under Nero who blamed the Christians for this fire. The ban continued until the Edict of Milan in 313AD when Roman Emperors Constantine and Licinius legalized the Christian religion.

Acts 2:14-41 Peter preaches in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost in 30AD
Acts 5:1-16 over the next few years after 30AD Peter is still in Jerusalem as the leader of the church.
Acts 5:17-42 Peter is the spokesman when he and another apostle were arrested in Jerusalem
Acts 8:25 Peter returns to Jerusalem from being in Samaria in 35AD
Acts 9:32-35 later in the year Peter goes to Lydda (Lod) in 35AD
Acts 9:36-43 Peter is called to the port of Joppa in 35AD
Acts 10:23-48 Peter travels to Caesarea towards the end of 35AD
Acts 11:18 Peter returns back to Jerusalem
Acts 12:1-19 jumps to 44AD where Peter is arrested in Jerusalem during the Passover festival, but miraculously freed from prison by an angel. Peter than goes to the home of John/Mark in Jerusalem and hands over the leadership of the Jerusalem church to James the half brother of Jesus and then flees elsewhere to safety.
Acts 15:1-21 around 49/50AD Peter addresses the assembly of believers in Jerusalem

Galatians 2:11-14 Peter meets Paul in Antioch in 50AD

1 Corinthians 1:12 It could be that when Peter fled from Jerusalem after the angel freed him from prison in 44AD he might have gone to Corinth and preached there from 44AD to 49AD. We see Paul writing to the Corinthians in 56AD some believer claim to follow Peter while others claim to follow Paul.

1 Peter 1:1 in 66AD Peter writes to the believers in Asia Minor while being in Rome

2 Peter 1:14, 15 in 67AD Peter writes again from Rome where he was imprisoned and is about to be executed.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 1:29-51 from vs. 29-34 John the Baptist was the first one to recognize Jesus when He came to John as he said, Behold the Lamb of God as he bore record that Jesus is the Son of God.
Vs. 37-51 the two disciples heard Jesus speak and became disciples (followers of Christ) of Jesus in who were Andrew the son of Jonas and John the son of Zebedee as after they witnessed the Holy Spirit falling on Jesus that day believed Jesus to be the Son of God. Now Andrew first found his brother Simon Peter who was the next to believe and then came Philip and then Nathaniel.

When you read Matthew 16:13-19 Simon Peter, unlike Andrew and John, did not witness Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist. Out of all the other disciples, except for Andrew and John, that were there with Jesus at Caesarea Philippi none could answer the question set before them except for Simon Peter as he was the only one who knew and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. This is the reason Jesus said "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. The rock is God and His grace by faith that the church is built upon beginning with Simon Peter who was the first one to received the keys of the kingdom of God being God's power and authority given to him/us by God's grace through faith to carry on the works of the Lord taking the Gospel message out into the world speaking with God's authority and power through the Holy Spirit that indwells us.


From 64AD - 76AD St. Linus from Tuscia, Central Tuscany was the first Pope of the Roman Catholic in Rome. theguardian.com has a list of every Pope and it list Peter as the first Pope from 30AD-64AD which is wrong as there were only Emperors, but Peter and Paul did help to establish the Christian churches in Rome as being authoritative through Christ, which is different then being authoritative to a Pope. The persecutions even to death that were brought against Christians after Peter became the first leader of the Christian church in Jerusalem was carried throughout the whole Roman Empire as what Jesus taught come against Roman paganism that still exist today.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. (Babylon here means Rome)

Peter did travel extensively with his wife, 1 Corinthians 9:5, and ministered in various Roman provinces in Asia Minor. According to tradition Peter was martyred around 64AD in Rome prior to Nero's death as being crucified upside down on a cross.

John 21:18 Jesus tells Peter how Peter is going to die by crucifixion when he is old. Peter was crucified by a martyr's death, but it is said by his request he asked the Romans (crucifixion was the form of punishment by Romans) to crucify him upside down as he humbled himself saying he was not worthy to die the same way Jesus was crucified.

Peter wrote his first letter while in Babylon (Rome) in response to the news of growing opposition to the believers in Asia Minor (Roman provinces), 1 Peter 1:6; 3:13-17; 4:12-19; 5:9, 10. Hostility and suspicion were mounting against Christians in the Roman Empire and they were being reviled and abused for their lifestyles and subversive talk about another kingdom.

Christianity had not yet received the official Roman ban, but the stage was being set for the persecution and martyrdom of the near future. The martyrdom of many Christians in the Roman Empire occurred over two centuries beginning with the great fire of Rome in 64AD under Nero who blamed the Christians for this fire. The ban continued until the Edict of Milan in 313AD when Roman Emperors Constantine and Licinius legalized the Christian religion.

Acts 2:14-41 Peter preaches in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost in 30AD
Acts 5:1-16 over the next few years after 30AD Peter is still in Jerusalem as the leader of the church.
Acts 5:17-42 Peter is the spokesman when he and another apostle were arrested in Jerusalem
Acts 8:25 Peter returns to Jerusalem from being in Samaria in 35AD
Acts 9:32-35 later in the year Peter goes to Lydda (Lod) in 35AD
Acts 9:36-43 Peter is called to the port of Joppa in 35AD
Acts 10:23-48 Peter travels to Caesarea towards the end of 35AD
Acts 11:18 Peter returns back to Jerusalem
Acts 12:1-19 jumps to 44AD where Peter is arrested in Jerusalem during the Passover festival, but miraculously freed from prison by an angel. Peter than goes to the home of John/Mark in Jerusalem and hands over the leadership of the Jerusalem church to James the half brother of Jesus and then flees elsewhere to safety.
Acts 15:1-21 around 49/50AD Peter addresses the assembly of believers in Jerusalem

Galatians 2:11-14 Peter meets Paul in Antioch in 50AD

1 Corinthians 1:12 It could be that when Peter fled from Jerusalem after the angel freed him from prison in 44AD he might have gone to Corinth and preached there from 44AD to 49AD. We see Paul writing to the Corinthians in 56AD some believer claim to follow Peter while others claim to follow Paul.

1 Peter 1:1 in 66AD Peter writes to the believers in Asia Minor while being in Rome

2 Peter 1:14, 15 in 67AD Peter writes again from Rome where he was imprisoned and is about to be executed.

Hi FHG
The above is great and is a great post.

Just want to make two comments:

1. WHY would Jesus say to Peter:
YOU ARE ROCK
AND ON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH?

The ONLY reason the word "rock" changes is because Peter is male. If he had been female, the word for rock would have been the same. (rock is feminine).

And IMMEDIATELY after, Jesus gives him the keys to the Kingdom and says nothing will prevail against it....and Jesus also give Peter the authority to loose and bind.

I used to believe as you do....but after much reading and thinking on this word "rock" I've come to this conclusion. Jesus wanted to set up a church and He knew He was going to leave here...so He left it up to the Apostles, with Peter as the head.

No need to further discuss this.

2. The CC can make up all the lists it is happy to as to the succession of the Pope going all the way back to Peter.

This is historically wrong. Peter was the Bishop of Rome....the Pope did not come into being, as it is known today, till about the year 600AD or so.

Because the Pope is the Bishop of Rome,,,they like to call every Bishop of Rome Pope,,,but it's not right since that is not what he was.

 

[for_his_glory]

I came in just after that.
The phone got hooked up to the computer,,,but you could hear the phone dialing and then making that funny sound that the young'uns don't even know about.

Started out with DOS speak...little notes all over with instructions on how to do what...SLASH........

Thank you Bill Gates....!

So you remember the File Manager when we could still do what we wanted to do...
Now the computer does everything all by itself...It took some getting used to. I guess, in the end, it's better...
no more installing, executing, zipping, etc.

Yeah. We were the cowboys and indians.
Tried the first internet phone in about 1996.
Too slow....the technology just wasn't there yet.

Oh well. Memories.
And the young'uns take one look at me and think I know nothing of computers.

Where I live I'm still in the stone age of dial-up. The price you pay for living in the country on a private lane and old phone lines that the phone company will not replace. I'm not paying $100 a month for satellite connection so slow computer is my life, Oy Vey.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where I live I'm still in the stone age of dial-up. The price you pay for living in the country on a private lane and old phone lines that the phone company will not replace. I'm not paying $100 a month for satellite connection so slow computer is my life, Oy Vey.

$100 a month!!!
I live in Italy...that would be a fortune over here for 90% of the population!

Well, hey....we must pay for what we have....
silence, nature, private lane...etc etc.
It's better, IMO.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG
The above is great and is a great post.

Just want to make two comments:

1. WHY would Jesus say to Peter:
YOU ARE ROCK
AND ON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH?

The ONLY reason the word "rock" changes is because Peter is male. If he had been female, the word for rock would have been the same. (rock is feminine).

And IMMEDIATELY after, Jesus gives him the keys to the Kingdom and says nothing will prevail against it....and Jesus also give Peter the authority to loose and bind.

I used to believe as you do....but after much reading and thinking on this word "rock" I've come to this conclusion. Jesus wanted to set up a church and He knew He was going to leave here...so He left it up to the Apostles, with Peter as the head.

No need to further discuss this.

2. The CC can make up all the lists it is happy to as to the succession of the Pope going all the way back to Peter.

This is historically wrong. Peter was the Bishop of Rome....the Pope did not come into being, as it is known today, till about the year 600AD or so.

Because the Pope is the Bishop of Rome,,,they like to call every Bishop of Rome Pope,,,but it's not right since that is not what he was.

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus never said, Peter you are a rock, He said upon this rock, meaning upon the truth that was revealed only to Peter by God that he would be the one to establish the first church of Christ in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost after being empowered by the Holy Spirit, Acts Chapter 2. Jesus has always been the rock/foundation/head of His true church being the body of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth and those baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 8:14 shows that Peter was married and according to the Catholic belief a Pope can not be married so Peter could have never been the first Pope or ever had a procession of Popes after him. Peter never went to Rome to establish the Roman Catholic Church, but wrote his letters to those who were scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1 Peter 1:1.

Peter wrote his letters from Babylon, also known as Rome as Peter spent the last years of his life in Rome as Rome at that time was described as a center of adultery. Peter wrote his letters to the Church (body of Christ and not a building made by hands) possibly around 64AD right before the full outbreak of Christian persecution by the hand of Rome's Nero.

Paul's letters were also addressed to all who are beloved of God in Rome. Not the Roman Catholic Church, but those who were beloved of God established by that rock which is Christ Jesus and not Peter. The last chapter of the book of Romans Paul sends greetings to 27 members of the church (the body of Christ), but never mentions Peter. According to the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church of Rome, Peter was there from 42 to 67 AD. Paul wrote the book of Romans around 58 AD. Now if Peter was in Rome from 42 to 67 AD that means by 58 AD that Peter should have been there for about 16 years. Not only that, but the Roman Catholic Church tradition tells us that he was the first Pope. Why didn't Paul acknowledge Peter in His writings as being the head of the Catholic Church (Pope) since he was addressing those who were beloved of God that lived there. The reason Paul didn’t mention Peter is because Peter wasn’t there. Peter was crucified by Nero prior to Nero's death in 68AD. Why would Catholic Rome crucify their own Pope.

Paul says in Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established. Peter spent 16 years there and the church is still not established. Paul nor Peter ever taught the Church the Spiritual things it needed to know, nor did any of the other 12 Apostles. Paul always dreamed of going to Rome, but came in a way he did not perceive as he came as a prisoner of the Roman Government. After being imprisoned in Palestine by the Roman Government for four years he then came to Rome and again was imprisoned for two more years from 61-63AD.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Father which is in heaven revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was saying that Peter knew more about Jesus than the others did since God Father revealed it to him.
This is precisely why the church (small c) was built on Peter.
He carried forward after Jesus' death...

[QUOTE]Jesus never said, Peter you are a rock, He said upon this rock, meaning upon the truth that was revealed only to Peter by God that he would be the one to establish the first church of Christ in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost after being empowered by the Holy Spirit, Acts Chapter 2. Jesus has always been the rock/foundation/head of His true church being the body of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth and those baptized in the Holy Spirit.[/QUOTE]
Jesus DID say to Peter...YOU ARE ROCK,,,Peter, Pietro means ROCK.

But now y ou're saying that the church was built upon the truth that was revealed to Peter...yes, of course...if we don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God we are not Christian. But this belief alone would not allow the church to spread....it needed humans to spread the word of God,,,as Jesus told the Apostles in Matthew 28:20 to go into all the world and teach what He had taught them.

Jesus is referred to as rock, as foundation, as the head.
Jesus is the head of His church..._But He would not be able to be visible from heaven and preach as He did when He was here.

Also, to be considered is the fact that Jesus Himself changed Peter's name from Simon to Cephas...which means rock in Aramaic.

I still hold to the idea that Jesus would not have said
YOU ARE ROCK
AND ON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH

meaning Himself as the rock.
Again,,,why would Jesus start off by saying YOU ARE ROCK...
and then...
BUT AH HA,,,ON THIS ROCK (Jesus) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.

It's almost scornful.

Matthew 8:14 shows that Peter was married and according to the Catholic belief a Pope can not be married so Peter could have never been the first Pope or ever had a procession of Popes after him. Peter never went to Rome to establish the Roman Catholic Church, but wrote his letters to those who were scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1 Peter 1:1.

Peter wrote his letters from Babylon, also known as Rome as Peter spent the last years of his life in Rome as Rome at that time was described as a center of adultery. Peter wrote his letters to the Church (body of Christ and not a building made by hands) possibly around 64AD right before the full outbreak of Christian persecution by the hand of Rome's Nero.

I've said repeatedly that Peter was NOT the first Pope.
But about Peter writing to the Body of Christ...
are you saying that a bldg known as a church is not necessary for the growth of a religion?
Please remember that even Peter's home in Capernum was used as a church.

Paul's letters were also addressed to all who are beloved of God in Rome. Not the Roman Catholic Church, but those who were beloved of God established by that rock which is Christ Jesus and not Peter. The last chapter of the book of Romans Paul sends greetings to 27 members of the church (the body of Christ), but never mentions Peter. According to the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church of Rome, Peter was there from 42 to 67 AD. Paul wrote the book of Romans around 58 AD. Now if Peter was in Rome from 42 to 67 AD that means by 58 AD that Peter should have been there for about 16 years. Not only that, but the Roman Catholic Church tradition tells us that he was the first Pope. Why didn't Paul acknowledge Peter in His writings as being the head of the Catholic Church (Pope) since he was addressing those who were beloved of God that lived there. The reason Paul didn’t mention Peter is because Peter wasn’t there. Peter was crucified by Nero prior to Nero's death in 68AD. Why would Catholic Rome crucify their own Pope.

Huh?
Of course Paul wrote to the Roman Christians.
There was no Roman Catholic Church at that time.
And why are you discussing with me the fact that Peter was not the first Pope?
I acknowledged this from the beginning.

[/QUOTE]Paul says in Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established. Peter spent 16 years there and the church is still not established. Paul nor Peter ever taught the Church the Spiritual things it needed to know, nor did any of the other 12 Apostles. Paul always dreamed of going to Rome, but came in a way he did not perceive as he came as a prisoner of the Roman Government. After being imprisoned in Palestine by the Roman Government for four years he then came to Rome and again was imprisoned for two more years from 61-63AD.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know what you mean by the above highlighted.
The church began to be built immediately after the Resurrection.
3,000 were saved in one day...that is the church being build, and the Church.
Acts 2:41

 

[JLB]

Hi Oz,,,
I missed the above...

As you must surely know,,,the keys are a symbol of authority.
Isaiah 22:20-23
20“Then it will come about in that day,
That I will summon My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah,

21And I will clothe him with your tunic
And tie your sash securely about him.
I will entrust him with your authority,
And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

22“Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.

I agree that keys are given to those who are entrusted with authority.


To grant access to someone signifies trust, that a person has earned.


I’m not disagreeing with Oz, but only adding to what he is saying.


I hope this does not distract from the discussion.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree that keys are given to those who are entrusted with authority.


To grant access to someone signifies trust, that a person has earned.


I’m not disagreeing with Oz, but only adding to what he is saying.


I hope this does not distract from the discussion.




JLB

No!!

It ADDS to the discussion.

I dislike being in the position of protecting the CC, which I left a really long time ago.... almost 40 years.

However, truth is truth and I cannot let any disagreement with that church's doctrine to cloud my understanding of scripture.

Any input is welcomed and to be considered.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I just see parallels with the pope and Peter. Peter got it wrong a bunch of times. Jesus even rebuked the words coming out of his mouth, and said those were the words from the devil.

Matthew 16:23

The pope does have authority on earth to make things happen. (spiritually) Do I agree with the church itself? No, we are supposed to live by the Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Father which is in heaven revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was saying that Peter knew more about Jesus than the others did since God Father revealed it to him.
This is precisely why the church (small c) was built on Peter.
He carried forward after Jesus' death...

[QUOTE]Jesus never said, Peter you are a rock, He said upon this rock, meaning upon the truth that was revealed only to Peter by God that he would be the one to establish the first church of Christ in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost after being empowered by the Holy Spirit, Acts Chapter 2. Jesus has always been the rock/foundation/head of His true church being the body of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth and those baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus DID say to Peter...YOU ARE ROCK,,,Peter, Pietro means ROCK.

But now y ou're saying that the church was built upon the truth that was revealed to Peter...yes, of course...if we don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God we are not Christian. But this belief alone would not allow the church to spread....it needed humans to spread the word of God,,,as Jesus told the Apostles in Matthew 28:20 to go into all the world and teach what He had taught them.

Jesus is referred to as rock, as foundation, as the head.
Jesus is the head of His church..._But He would not be able to be visible from heaven and preach as He did when He was here.

Also, to be considered is the fact that Jesus Himself changed Peter's name from Simon to Cephas...which means rock in Aramaic.

I still hold to the idea that Jesus would not have said
YOU ARE ROCK
AND ON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH

meaning Himself as the rock.
Again,,,why would Jesus start off by saying YOU ARE ROCK...
and then...
BUT AH HA,,,ON THIS ROCK (Jesus) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.

It's almost scornful.



I've said repeatedly that Peter was NOT the first Pope.
But about Peter writing to the Body of Christ...
are you saying that a bldg known as a church is not necessary for the growth of a religion?
Please remember that even Peter's home in Capernum was used as a church.


Huh?
Of course Paul wrote to the Roman Christians.
There was no Roman Catholic Church at that time.
And why are you discussing with me the fact that Peter was not the first Pope?
I acknowledged this from the beginning.

[/QUOTE]Paul says in Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established. Peter spent 16 years there and the church is still not established. Paul nor Peter ever taught the Church the Spiritual things it needed to know, nor did any of the other 12 Apostles. Paul always dreamed of going to Rome, but came in a way he did not perceive as he came as a prisoner of the Roman Government. After being imprisoned in Palestine by the Roman Government for four years he then came to Rome and again was imprisoned for two more years from 61-63AD.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know what you mean by the above highlighted.
The church began to be built immediately after the Resurrection.
3,000 were saved in one day...that is the church being build, and the Church.
Acts 2:41
[/QUOTE]

I can only go by what has already been written in Matthew 16:18 That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. As I already said it was God that revealed only to Peter on that day in Caesarea Philippi that Jesus is the Son of God. Peter receiving this revelation from God was chosen above all the other disciples to be the leader of the Christian church that began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost where around 3000 were added by God to the church, Acts 2.

My name means a Bee, but I'm not a Bee just like Peter's name might mean rock, but the rock being spoken of in that verse means, upon God revealing this to you Peter and you believe I will build my church by working through you as it's leader starting here in Jerusalem. From that day forth the disciples were commissioned by Jesus as He said, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen, Matthew 28:19, 20.

I never said you believed Peter was the first Pope, but that many Catholic say he was. Yes, I am saying that a building is not necessary for the growth of Christ's church for if it was then why didn't the first Christian church on the day of Pentecost meet in a building. A building is all well and good to protect us from the elements outside, but that is the only purpose for a building. We read in Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. It truly does not matter where we assemble, but that we do assemble. Even in forums we are assembled even if we are not all here at the same time as it's all about unity, exhortation and teaching the doctrines of Christ for what He has already taught us.

The only reason why I mention the Roman Catholic Church in my post #29 is that many associate the church in Rome as the Roman Catholic Church and believe Peter was the first Pope. It was not directed at you.

Whether Peter ever went to Rome is not found in scripture, but only comes by Catholic tradtional teachings that state he was in Rome from 42AD to 67AD and died there. 1 Peter 1:1 Peter wrote his letters to those who were scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia that were controlled by the Roman Empire as each one was governed by a Roman who was appointed as governor. Paul also wrote letters to the church in Rome.

Now if the 12 Apostles, that include Peter and Paul, never literally taught in the church in Rome of Spiritual things then how was it established? It was established by those Jews whose names were never mentioned in Acts 1:15 as being part of the 120 that were gathered in the upper room on the day of Pentecost and the 3000 from every nation that also received Gods power and then the filling of the Holy Spirit who repented and were baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. Each Jew returned back to the nation they came from and the Jews from Rome started establishing the church (body of Christ) there as they met in homes or wherever they could in secret to be hid from the persecutions from Roman Government. They won many converts as God added to the church daily, but yet they had no Apostle to teach them, but only that of what Peter taught them in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost and the letters Peter and Paul wrote to them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus DID say to Peter...YOU ARE ROCK,,,Peter, Pietro means ROCK.

But now y ou're saying that the church was built upon the truth that was revealed to Peter...yes, of course...if we don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God we are not Christian. But this belief alone would not allow the church to spread....it needed humans to spread the word of God,,,as Jesus told the Apostles in Matthew 28:20 to go into all the world and teach what He had taught them.

Jesus is referred to as rock, as foundation, as the head.
Jesus is the head of His church..._But He would not be able to be visible from heaven and preach as He did when He was here.

Also, to be considered is the fact that Jesus Himself changed Peter's name from Simon to Cephas...which means rock in Aramaic.

I still hold to the idea that Jesus would not have said
YOU ARE ROCK
AND ON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH

meaning Himself as the rock.
Again,,,why would Jesus start off by saying YOU ARE ROCK...
and then...
BUT AH HA,,,ON THIS ROCK (Jesus) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.

It's almost scornful.



I've said repeatedly that Peter was NOT the first Pope.
But about Peter writing to the Body of Christ...
are you saying that a bldg known as a church is not necessary for the growth of a religion?
Please remember that even Peter's home in Capernum was used as a church.


Huh?
Of course Paul wrote to the Roman Christians.
There was no Roman Catholic Church at that time.
And why are you discussing with me the fact that Peter was not the first Pope?
I acknowledged this from the beginning.

There was something wrong with the quotes thingy...
My statement ends here, above....

Paul says in Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established. Peter spent 16 years there and the church is still not established. Paul nor Peter ever taught the Church the Spiritual things it needed to know, nor did any of the other 12 Apostles. Paul always dreamed of going to Rome, but came in a way he did not perceive as he came as a prisoner of the Roman Government. After being imprisoned in Palestine by the Roman Government for four years he then came to Rome and again was imprisoned for two more years from 61-63AD.

I'm not sure what you man by the above.
Paul and Peter went on missionary journeys.
I doubt you're saying that they did not impart spiritual truths and propagate this new religion.

Are you saying Peter spent 16 years in Rome and it was to no avail? Are you sure he spent 16 years in Rome? I do know that Peter was the Bishop of Rome....however it's believed by some that he might not have spent all his time in Rome,,,but could have travelled AND headed the church in Rome...I don't believe there is any historical proof to either of our beliefs.

Irenaus, a student of Polycarp, a student of John...stated that both Peter and Paul preached in Rome.

Peter was imprisoned in Rome and there were house churches there.
Romans 16:3-4

I can only go by what has already been written in Matthew 16:18 That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. As I already said it was God that revealed only to Peter on that day in Caesarea Philippi that Jesus is the Son of God. Peter receiving this revelation from God was chosen above all the other disciples to be the leader of the Christian church that began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost where around 3000 were added by God to the church, Acts 2.

Agreed.

My name means a Bee, but I'm not a Bee just like Peter's name might mean rock, but the rock being spoken of in that verse means, upon God revealing this to you Peter and you believe I will build my church by working through you as it's leader starting here in Jerusalem. From that day forth the disciples were commissioned by Jesus as He said, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen, Matthew 28:19, 20.

Yes,,, I do understand WHY you believe Jesus said that the rock means God revealed Himself to Peter in a special way. And, indeed, Peter was a leader in the church, and basically, this is all I'm saying.

I never said you believed Peter was the first Pope, but that many Catholic say he was. Yes, I am saying that a building is not necessary for the growth of Christ's church for if it was then why didn't the first Christian church on the day of Pentecost meet in a building. A building is all well and good to protect us from the elements outside, but that is the only purpose for a building. We read in Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. It truly does not matter where we assemble, but that we do assemble.

The first Christians, on the day of Pentecost, DID meet in a bldg...
Acts 2:1-2
The Day of Pentecost

1When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

A bldg is surely necessary to facilitate the growth of ANY activity.
It might be a church bldg or it might be a house where the early Christians gathered, or it might have been a synogogue....but they did meet in bldgs.

Even in forums we are assembled even if we are not all here at the same time as it's all about unity, exhortation and teaching the doctrines of Christ for what He has already taught us.

The only reason why I mention the Roman Catholic Church in my post #29 is that many associate the church in Rome as the Roman Catholic Church and believe Peter was the first Pope. It was not directed at you.

Agreed.

Whether Peter ever went to Rome is not found in scripture, but only comes by Catholic tradtional teachings that state he was in Rome from 42AD to 67AD and died there. 1 Peter 1:1 Peter wrote his letters to those who were scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia that were controlled by the Roman Empire as each one was governed by a Roman who was appointed as governor. Paul also wrote letters to the church in Rome.

As I posted to another member here,,,not all history is in the bible.
John himself states that not everything is written in the scriptures.
After all, it's not meant to be a history book. John 12:25

Now if the 12 Apostles, that include Peter and Paul, never literally taught in the church in Rome of Spiritual things then how was it established? It was established by those Jews whose names were never mentioned in Acts 1:15 as being part of the 120 that were gathered in the upper room on the day of Pentecost and the 3000 from every nation that also received Gods power and then the filling of the Holy Spirit who repented and were baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. Each Jew returned back to the nation they came from and the Jews from Rome started establishing the church (body of Christ) there as they met in homes or wherever they could in secret to be hid from the persecutions from Roman Government. They won many converts as God added to the church daily, but yet they had no Apostle to teach them, but only that of what Peter taught them in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost and the letters Peter and Paul wrote to them.

Agreed about how the Jews returned to Rome and thus spread the gospel.

When in Rome and visiting St. Peter's Basilica, the information if that he is buried under the church. There is also a church where the chains are that held him as prisoner in the prison near the Coliseum.

There is so much there about Peter that it seems unlikely that he had never visited Rome.

I'm not sure this is worth debating....
He definitely was the bishop of Rome....
Why he would be if he had never even been there would b e a mystery to me.

 

[for_his_glory]

There was something wrong with the quotes thingy...
My statement ends here, above....



I'm not sure what you man by the above.
Paul and Peter went on missionary journeys.
I doubt you're saying that they did not impart spiritual truths and propagate this new religion.

Are you saying Peter spent 16 years in Rome and it was to no avail? Are you sure he spent 16 years in Rome? I do know that Peter was the Bishop of Rome....however it's believed by some that he might not have spent all his time in Rome,,,but could have travelled AND headed the church in Rome...I don't believe there is any historical proof to either of our beliefs.

Irenaus, a student of Polycarp, a student of John...stated that both Peter and Paul preached in Rome.

Peter was imprisoned in Rome and there were house churches there.
Romans 16:3-4




Agreed.


Yes,,, I do understand WHY you believe Jesus said that the rock means God revealed Himself to Peter in a special way. And, indeed, Peter was a leader in the church, and basically, this is all I'm saying.


The first Christians, on the day of Pentecost, DID meet in a bldg...
Acts 2:1-2
The Day of Pentecost

1When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

A bldg is surely necessary to facilitate the growth of ANY activity.
It might be a church bldg or it might be a house where the early Christians gathered, or it might have been a synogogue....but they did meet in bldgs.


Agreed.


As I posted to another member here,,,not all history is in the bible.
John himself states that not everything is written in the scriptures.
After all, it's not meant to be a history book. John 12:25


Agreed about how the Jews returned to Rome and thus spread the gospel.

When in Rome and visiting St. Peter's Basilica, the information if that he is buried under the church. There is also a church where the chains are that held him as prisoner in the prison near the Coliseum.

There is so much there about Peter that it seems unlikely that he had never visited Rome.

I'm not sure this is worth debating....
He definitely was the bishop of Rome....
Why he would be if he had never even been there would b e a mystery to me.

I don't see it as debating, but only discussion as I don't like debating in order to prove ones point.

Yes, I noticed the reply/quote didn't work properly when I replied back to you and I agree not everything is written in scripture as we have to also study the history and culture of that era.

I didn't say Peter spent 16 years in Rome or was a Bishop there, but that this is a traditional teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

I agree the first Christians being 120, including the disciples, altogether were in the upper room, but the 3000 that were added by God that day were out in the street when they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a building was not necessary, but only the assembling together no matter where they gather. Some met in homes, caves or even in the mountains back then as they feared the Hebraic Jews (high Priest and the Sadducees) that would have had them arrested like they did Peter, John 20:19; Acts 12:3-19.

Peter and Paul went on many missionary journeys, but only to speak encouragement and unify the churches that were already established after the day of Pentecost by those devout Jews from every nation that were gathered in Jerusalem and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Those nations are listed in Acts 2:8-11 that also includes the churches in Rome. Peter was only a leader of the church in Jerusalem until he gave that leadership over to James, the brother of Jesus before he began to travel. Paul was never a leader of any church.

Below are the missionary journey of Paul and Peter who received the keys to the kingdom of God.

Paul's missionary journey
Acts 18-28 is all about Paul's third missionary journey and his two trips to Rome, but as a prisoner. Paul's first visit to Rome was when he was arrested at the Temple in Jerusalem around 58AD and taken to Caesarea for two years and finally brought to Rome as a prisoner in 61AD to wait trial under Emperor Nero as Paul was a Roman citizen , but yet granted a a place to live under house arrest for the next two years whee he wrote four letters to the Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians and Philemon. Paul is set free in 63AD and immediately travels to the island of Crete then to Nicopolis and Spain, Romans 15:24-28. Paul's second trip to Rome finds himself coming there as a prisoner in 68 AD and dies a martyr's death in 68AD.

Peter's missionary journey
Acts 2-5 Peter is preaching in Jerusalem and he and another disciple were arrested by the high priest as he angered the Sadducees by that of what authority he preached. The angel of the Lord by night brought Peter and the other disciple out and told them to go preach in the Temple. Peter and John start their journey by traveling to Sebaste in Samaria in 35AD and prayed for the new Samaritan believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Peter and John returned back to Jerusalem and latter that year visits the believers in Lydda. Peter is then called to the port of Joppa where Tabitha (Dorcas) has died. Peter prays for her and she is brought back to life. While in Joppa after the vision he had on the roof top Cornelius's two Gentile servants and his attendant arrive in Joppa and Peter invited them into his house. In 35AD Peter travels to Caesarea and shares with Cornelius's Gentile family and the Holy Spirit falls on all who were present. After staying there for several days Peter reports back to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem, but the more conservative Hebraic Jewish believers criticize Peter for eating with uncircumcised Gentiles, but most of the disciples agree to accept the new Gentile converts into the fellowship of believers.

Around 44AD Peter is in Jerusalem where he is arrested under the order of King Herod Agrippa 1 who beheaded the apostle James, the brother of John as now Peter is regarded as a radical Jew mixing with Gentiles. Peter is released from prison during the night by an angel and rejoins the believes who are meeting together in the house of John Mark in Jerusalem and hands the leadership of the church in Jerusalem to James, the brother of Jesus and then flees for his safety. In 49-50AD Peter addresses the assembly of believers in Jerusalem.

Galatians 2:11-14 In 50AD Peter meets Paul in Antioch where Paul accuses Peter of changing his mind drawing back from eating with Gentiles. It's believed that Peter escaped to Corinth between 44 and 49AD as when Paul writes to the Corinthian believers in 56AD some of the believers claimed to have follow Peter.

1 Peter 1:1; 2 Peter 1:14, 15 Peter is possibly writing from Rome to the Jewish believers in the Roman provinces of Asia Minor in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia. Between 64 and 66AD Peter, during the time of his martyrdom, writes again from Rome where he has been imprisoned and is about to be executed because he speaks out against the heresies found in the church that were being taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see it as debating, but only discussion as I don't like debating in order to prove ones point.

I understand debate to mean the same as discussion---
Some understand it to mean arguing or speaking to win in the end...If I used the word "debate" I meant it to mean discussion.

Yes, I noticed the reply/quote didn't work properly when I replied back to you and I agree not everything is written in scripture as we have to also study the history and culture of that era.

Agreed.

I didn't say Peter spent 16 years in Rome or was a Bishop there, but that this is a traditional teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm not really too interested in what the CC teaches....I go by history and not the history as the CC presents it. Some of it is prejudiced I'd say...although a lot of it is historic.

I agree the first Christians being 120, including the disciples, altogether were in the upper room, but the 3000 that were added by God that day were out in the street when they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a building was not necessary, but only the assembling together no matter where they gather. Some met in homes, caves or even in the mountains back then as they feared the Hebraic Jews (high Priest and the Sadducees) that would have had them arrested like they did Peter, John 20:19; Acts 12:3-19.

Right....the 3,000 were not in the upper room. Sorry if that's what I understood. Paul also did a lot of preaching out in the open in the center of cities,,,near markets and other gathering places. The Agora' for instance in Athens.

Peter and Paul went on many missionary journeys, but only to speak encouragement and unify the churches that were already established after the day of Pentecost by those devout Jews from every nation that were gathered in Jerusalem and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Those nations are listed in Acts 2:8-11 that also includes the churches in Rome. Peter was only a leader of the church in Jerusalem until he gave that leadership over to James, the brother of Jesus before he began to travel. Paul was never a leader of any church.

Agreed on the above.
When I use the word "leader" I mean that Paul and/or Peter were looked up as leaders. Not necessarily that they established any church. Peter is known as a leader in Rome...in that way.

Below are the missionary journey of Paul and Peter who received the keys to the kingdom of God.

Paul's missionary journey
Acts 18-28 is all about Paul's third missionary journey and his two trips to Rome, but as a prisoner. Paul's first visit to Rome was when he was arrested at the Temple in Jerusalem around 58AD and taken to Caesarea for two years and finally brought to Rome as a prisoner in 61AD to wait trial under Emperor Nero as Paul was a Roman citizen , but yet granted a a place to live under house arrest for the next two years whee he wrote four letters to the Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians and Philemon. Paul is set free in 63AD and immediately travels to the island of Crete then to Nicopolis and Spain, Romans 15:24-28. Paul's second trip to Rome finds himself coming there as a prisoner in 68 AD and dies a martyr's death in 68AD.

No argument from me!!

Peter's missionary journey
Acts 2-5 Peter is preaching in Jerusalem and he and another disciple were arrested by the high priest as he angered the Sadducees by that of what authority he preached. The angel of the Lord by night brought Peter and the other disciple out and told them to go preach in the Temple. Peter and John start their journey by traveling to Sebaste in Samaria in 35AD and prayed for the new Samaritan believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Peter and John returned back to Jerusalem and latter that year visits the believers in Lydda. Peter is then called to the port of Joppa where Tabitha (Dorcas) has died. Peter prays for her and she is brought back to life. While in Joppa after the vision he had on the roof top Cornelius's two Gentile servants and his attendant arrive in Joppa and Peter invited them into his house. In 35AD Peter travels to Caesarea and shares with Cornelius's Gentile family and the Holy Spirit falls on all who were present. After staying there for several days Peter reports back to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem, but the more conservative Hebraic Jewish believers criticize Peter for eating with uncircumcised Gentiles, but most of the disciples agree to accept the new Gentile converts into the fellowship of believers.

Agreed. I think we touched on this disagreement between them (maybe not).

Around 44AD Peter is in Jerusalem where he is arrested under the order of King Herod Agrippa 1 who beheaded the apostle James, the brother of John as now Peter is regarded as a radical Jew mixing with Gentiles. Peter is released from prison during the night by an angel and rejoins the believes who are meeting together in the house of John Mark in Jerusalem and hands the leadership of the church in Jerusalem to James, the brother of Jesus and then flees for his safety. In 49-50AD Peter addresses the assembly of believers in Jerusalem.

I agree with all of the above. The sentence I highlighted I am not familiar with...but I'll trust you.

Galatians 2:11-14 In 50AD Peter meets Paul in Antioch where Paul accuses Peter of changing his mind drawing back from eating with Gentiles. It's believed that Peter escaped to Corinth between 44 and 49AD as when Paul writes to the Corinthian believers in 56AD some of the believers claimed to have follow Peter.

1 Peter 1:1; 2 Peter 1:14, 15 Peter is possibly writing from Rome to the Jewish believers in the Roman provinces of Asia Minor in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia. Between 64 and 66AD Peter, during the time of his martyrdom, writes again from Rome where he has been imprisoned and is about to be executed because he speaks out against the heresies found in the church that were being taught.

Agreed !

 

[for_his_glory]

wondering I think we're good now and thank you for the challenging questions as they do make me dig a little deeper

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering I think we're good now and thank you for the challenging questions as they do make me dig a little deeper

Ditto !

 

[Sparkey]

Let me compose a reply by asking another question, "What are we supposed to do if and when we see our brother sinning?"

​

Open_Bible Topics == Correcting a Brother << -- Click to open
You'll know within 10 seconds if you like this... Scripture is summarized and presented in 'snippet' overview.

From the above selection, (if you clicked) there may be selected 2 (or more) responses. Perhaps the central thought regarding our actions, if we were to catch our brother or brethren in trespass, would be to recall and adhere to the following two admonitions and teachings:

Galatians 6:1 (ESV) cf. Galatians 6:1 (NIV)
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Matthew 18:15-17 (ESV) cf. Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

________________________________
Now, and only for a moment, let us consider what we Christians of modern times may be inclined to do or actually do.

<Warning: This type of wording signifies a 'change of voice'.
Let me introduce, 'The Voice of the Flesh':

I'm lost. I've got all these voices in my head. So says the Voice of the Lost. It continues, "Tell me the story I need to hear. Tell me about the Son who is about to rise again." Our voice may have been listening to a Christian singer and may be able to emulate for a short time, the voice of Andrew Peterson, as he ministers to the Body of Christ at large...

But then? We depart from this 'voice' for the moment and return back to a life that is much more real although much less ideal. You know, I'm talking about just regular old day-to-day life. The life where if we have not personally transgressed in the following fashion, certainly it is familiar, if not deemed common place and the ordinary way of this. Yeah, it's just the way things go and it sounds more like a grumbling than a good:

What if your bro sins? What to do?

We could invert the facts. This is sometimes called 'turning the tables' and it may involve blabbing to all their friends about the behavior. If our brother oversteps and offends us? We are gonna throw rocks to get him back to the boundary area where he belongs.

Brother_Offender: "Yes, I know that I'm over-stepping and that my foot has been caught on your side of the fence but let's just concentrate on what you just did, for a second, shall weeee??"

Brother_Offended: "Really?
Brother_Offended:<to self> "That really hurt. I guess he didn't set out to do that but I'm more than annoyed at that [INSERT NAME CALLING HERE]...

No, what are we to actually do if we see our brother sin? You already know. The answer provided by Jesus, the Teacher/Rabbi, was found in the Gospel of Matthew


Matthew 18:15-17 ESV
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

We are to ask the Holy Spirit to intercede for us with confidence. I've heard this process described in another, perhaps more relocatable, manner, "we are to run to the throne of Mercy as children who leap up onto the lap of their loving father." It almost sounds like we are to expect to be treated as members of His family. Indeed.

Galatians 6:1 ESV
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

You see? I've tried to make it so simple that even a fool would be able to understand. Here it is again. Chewed up and digested for ya. We are not supposed to cast stones when we catch our brothers sinning. That was the purpose of the old law. The foundation rock, sure, in a manner of speaking, but that was then. The law was given as a guardian designed to be set aside after it had served its purpose. The law, which has prompted the death by stoning of others has been changed. Now, I agree and quote Paul when I say that the "setting aside of the law does not and should not be used as permission or license to sin or to continue to sin, to willfully trespass or overstep and offend against God. Heaven forbid. But rather, it is used to lead us to Jesus, and thereby lead us to His willingness to forgive as seen by the shed blood of the Lamb of God.

Our voices are properly joined to a song that was begun ages ago. We are hearing the starting notes of a song entitled, "The Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb." Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away our sin.

We are to put down our rocks and no longer use them to stone each other. This is the gospel, the Good News. Our stones become little rocks, pebbles used to build each other up on our Most Holy Faith. The Son of God is here. We have invited Him through His word. It has been transplanted into our hearts and is able to change us inwardly. We are to diligently consider each other as we chase after our shepherd, our newly created hearts in hand.

~amen and amen.