I Need Help

[Drew]

I would say that we are under a new covenant...

I certainly agree - there is a new covenant. And since the Law of Moses was the central charter of the old covenant, we have every reason to expect that it (the Law of Moses) was "retired" along with the other elements of the old covenant.

 

[farouk]

It sounds like both your friends have something in common, deflecting personal responsibility for their actions. If friend #1 is using scripture to justify criminal activity then I would question his salvation. He is being willfully ignorant to the truth because he found a few verses that justifies his actions. Be careful with your interactions with him, bad company corrupts good character.

Friend #2 is using his disability to avoid the truth. Adult illiteracy can be debilitating, but if he wanted to get into the word he would. Sounds like he is creatively blowing you off.

Continue to pray for them both and focus on convicting them with your life and lifestyle. There's probably not a single scripture that will suddenly change them. You've planted the seed, let God work.

Edward:

Yes, this is good advice.

You're not responsible for the actions of the people you know.

If you give faithful testimony, then it's for God to work in them if He pleases.

 

[stovebolts]

I certainly agree - there is a new covenant. And since the Law of Moses was the central charter of the old covenant, we have every reason to expect that it (the Law of Moses) was "retired" along with the other elements of the old covenant.

How about slave trading? It that permissible under the new law?

 

[Drew]

How about slave trading? It that permissible under the new law?

Absolutely not. I am curious - why do ask?

 

[Sparkey]

Jesus taught the parable of the good soil giving many examples. We see that the "seed" is the Word of God.

For friend #2 this Word may come to him through the Bible and the suggestion that he use free resources (audio versions of the Bible) seems reasonable. Yet, this is not the only source. You, yourself, as well as other Christians are living epistles, known and read of men, if you have heard the word and have acted on it. The fruit of the Spirit can be seen in you and the Word of God is in your heart.


The truth of the parable and its application to our lives can be seen within the examples. Why does the pure word fail to work in some cases?
Jesus spoke the truth here and admonished all to hear it: (Matthew 13:9) (Mark 4:9) (Luke 8:8).

• HARD SOIL: The seed does not penetrate the soil at all and is quickly snatched away.
• ROCKY SOIL: The seed penetrates the loose shallow soil but underneath it is hindered by rocky hardness and lack of moisture. It seems to grow very fast but doesn't last. Quick wither.
• THORNY SOIL: The seed penetrates but there is too much competition by the hardier thorns and is starved out (choked out).
• GOOD SOIL: The seed penetrates, is able to thrive and produce fruit.

Can this relate to the two friends? Well, we can not see into their hearts but Jesus' admonition "Let them hear," (Luke 8:8) is to all.

When the Disciples wanted to know more about the lesson their Teacher thought of critical import, he explained, "Unto you is given to know mysteries..."

• The HARDENED SOIL: Hearts that are not open to the Gospel. The soil found along the path represents people to fail to respond positively to Jesus and his mission. Examples might include the Pharisees and Scribes of His time.
• The SHALLOW SOIL: Some respond joyfully to the message of salvation and appear to have quick growth for a short time. Some Christians are very happy to hear messages of "prosperity" and judge things according to how they appear to enrich them. They fail to acknowledge the implications of the Good News, ignoring the messages about self control and denying oneself. This isn't a fault of the Lord's preaching but is indicative of their selective hearing. Essentially they listen to the word and pay attention only to the "sweet parts".
• The THORNY SOIL: Some who hear the Word of God have a more complete grasp of the cost of discipleship but never rid themselves of their cares for the things of this world. It's not lack of knowledge that interferes with the good work that the Lord wants to in their lives but lack of commitment and lack of dedication. When trials come, they have not learned to "count it all joy" knowing that the trial of their faith produces endurance.
• The GOOD SOIL: Hearts that are able to hear and act on the Good News and its implications. Their lives are uncluttered by concern for the things of the world, of if not, they are able to turn away from the concerns of their old life and embrace the full teachings of Christ. The Word of God is understood and allowed to mature, bringing forth fruit. Understanding is departing evil in order to allow the Holy Spirit to act in one's life.

The purpose of the parable isn't to point to the difference between the saved and the unsaved but instead to focus all on the goal of allowing the Word of God to bring us to full maturity and bearing Godly fruit in our lives and the lives of those we come into contact with.

I feel confident that the Holy Spirit will be able to convict our hearts (including your two friends) and show us where we fit and how we can improve through a better understanding of what the Messiah taught.

"Then came to him [his] mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. And it was told him [by certain] which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." - [Luke 8:19-21 KJV]

Online Source: Bible.org --> http://bible.org/seriespage/parable-soils-luke-84-21

 

[providence]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (ESV)

For friend #2, you might find out one example of what what scares him (eg. opening the Bible to some random verse in Jeremiah like Jeremiah 7:33?). That might lead to a discussion.

 

[Edward]

I'm not sure what's going on here, but three times yesterday, I wrote a response to this thread, and I lose the post somehow and didn't post it. I'll try again.
I can sure that I came to the right place here, good answers. I was indeed speaking of the Law of Moses. I am not Jewish. All of the books of the Bible are Gods word, and the truth can not change because of a new covenant. We may not be under the law as far as punishment or condemnation goes, but we are certainly to hold the law within our hearts and to keep the law. This much is very clear to me. True enough the law is for the Gentiles, but we can keep the law as an example for others, and because Jesus said that if we love him, we will keep his commandments. There is nothing confusing about this.

Anyway, friend 1 is a Christian, shows fruits of the spirit, if not all of the fruits. He is an immature Christian like most and has some stumbling blocks is all. There is great danger in this, which is why I worry about my brother in Christ. He is Christs, because some of the things that come from his mouth (and actions) clearly show the Lords hand at work. I am aware of the Satans tactics, which are to couch a single lie within a collection of truths, so nevertheless, I will be alert and discerning in this matter, lest I be deceived. I appreciate your warning and concern for me! I have some good scriptures to work with with him now. I doubt that I will slap him and ask his forgiveness though. I don't know if he is this strong in the Lord to where I wouldn't be picking myself up off floor for that! lol.

Thinking about friend 2, I see very little if any fruits of the spirit within him. He says he gets scared when he has tried to read the Bible, so the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, and so I must conclude that the Holy Spirit is working within him and calling to him for this reason. He is a dangerous sort, so this one will be a harder case to work with. If he were to come to Jesus with even half the fervency as he goes about his earthly doings he would be a good soldier of Christ.
He doesn't scare me though. He seems to have quite a bit of respect for me. So perhaps just being a good example for him, and then being patient and allowing the Lord time to work with him is the best advice for that. I will ask him what scares him though.
I like that metaphor of why would one keep 66 love letters in a drawer. I'm going to use that!
I hope this post takes. I'm not gone away, just busy with work and the devil plays games with my computer to try to stop me from talking with you all. So if you don't hear from me right away, I'll be back. God bless you all for your helpful words.

 

[Drew]

I was indeed speaking of the Law of Moses. I am not Jewish. All of the books of the Bible are Gods word, and the truth can not change because of a new covenant. We may not be under the law as far as punishment or condemnation goes, but we are certainly to hold the law within our hearts and to keep the law.

Really?

Should we stone adulterers?

Should we sacrifice animals?

You are really avoiding the possibility that the Law of Moses has been set aside.
And I suggest the Bible is clear that is has indeed been "retired". Paul explicitly declares the abolition of the Law of Moses here in Ephesians 2:

For He Himself is <SUP class=crossreference value='(AR)'></SUP>our peace, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AS)'></SUP>who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, <SUP class=versenum>15 </SUP>by <SUP class=crossreference value='(AT)'></SUP>abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is <SUP class=crossreference value='(AU)'></SUP>the Law of commandments contained in ordinances,

Paul's argument is clear from context: When the Law of Moses was in force, it divided the world into 2 camps: Jew and Gentile, precisely because, as is clear from Scripture, the Law of Moses was only for the Jews. With its abolition, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" in Christ.

Again, it is really quite clear that the written code of the Law of Moses has been set aside, even if some of the underlying principles are indeed "timeless and eternal".

 

[Drew]

This much is very clear to me. True enough the law is for the Gentiles,...

Did you mean to say "Jews"? The Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only. It is certainly not a code of practices for all mankind.

...because Jesus said that if we love him, we will keep his commandments. There is nothing confusing about this.

Are to keep Jesus' commandments? Of course. But what Jesus commands us is not the same as what is in the Law of Moses!

The Law of Moses declares certain foods are unclean for the Jew.

In the gospels, Jesus declares all foods to be clean.

Do you see the problem?

Again, this may be a bit of a tangent, but it is important to understand Biblical basics.

 

[Edward]

Drew, my friend, I suspect that you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. You're being legalistic and setting aside faith. Would you now take the Law of Moses out of the Bible? It is not for us to judge adulterers, and no sacrifice is now needed. Sacrificing animals is not in the 10 commandments. I believe that Paul said that the law was for the Gentiles, or non-believers. I don't have time to look it up right now, I have to go work. I'll try to look it up later for you.

So are you saying that we disregard the commandments, and continue transgressing them. Let grace abound? (Certainly not!)

 

[Edward]

Is not the entire Bible the word of God? Is Jesus not The Word?

 

[Drew]

Drew, my friend, I suspect that you're making this more complicated than it needs to be.

I suggest that I am being true to what the Scriptures actually say. Do you deny that Paul declares the abolition of the Law of Moses in Ephesians 2? Do you deny that Jesus declared all foods clean? Do you deny that the Law of Moses says that some food are unclean?

You're being legalistic and setting aside faith.

Where, and please be specific, have I done either of these things?

Would you now take the Law of Moses out of the Bible?

Of course, I never said anything like this. I merely report what Paul and Jesus have done: Paul explicitly declares that the Law of Moses is now abolished, and Jesus makes cryptic allusions to its abolition - how could Jesus say the Law of Moses is still to be followed, if He challenges it on the point of unclean foods?

It is not for us to judge adulterers, and no sacrifice is now needed. Sacrificing animals is not in the 10 commandments.

It was you who posted this:

We may not be under the law as far as punishment or condemnation goes, but we are certainly to hold the law within our hearts and to keep the law.

Well, which is it? Are we to keep the Law or not? The Law prescribes sacrifice and it prescribes the stoning of adulterers.

Also, you appear to not understand that the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses along with all other several hundred provisions of that Law. On what basis do you decide that one part of the Law of Moses remains in force, while another part is no longer in force.

I believe that Paul said that the law was for the Gentiles, or non-believers.

I suggest you are mistaken - nowhere does Paul declare that Gentiles are to follow the Law of Moses.

So are you saying that we disregard the commandments, and continue transgressing them. Let grace abound? (Certainly not!)

1. I am, following what Paul says, saying that the Law of Moses is no longer in force;

2. This does not, of course, mean that I am saying its ok to break the 10 commandments. People always get tripped up on this, thinking that to say that the 10 commandments are no longer in force as a prescriptive moral code means that its ok to commit adultery, steal, etc. Do you need a law to tell you to not kick defenceless puppies? Hopefully not! If there were such a law on the books and then, for some reason, it was stricken from its status as an element of law, does that mean its morally acceptable to kick puppies? Of course not! Likewise, the fact that all the Law of Moses - including the 10 commandments - has been "retired" as a prescriptive codes does not means its ok to do things like commit adultery or lie. As Paul argues in Romans 7, we have the Spirit now and no longer need the law.

 

[Drew]

Is not the entire Bible the word of God? Is Jesus not The Word?

Of course it is, but that does not mean that everything in it is eternally true. The Jews were ordered to wipe out certain races. Should we wipe out these races, if they somehow reappear? The Jews were ordered to sacrifice animals in the temple. Should we build a temple and sacrifice animals? Should we send lepers away?

I trust the point is clear - it is a gross simplification to see the scriptures as embodying a set of eternal and timeless truths. If nothing ever changes, how come the Bible speaks of the replacement of the old covenant with the new covenant?

 

[stovebolts]

Absolutely not. I am curious - why do ask?

Well, where does it say you can't in the NT?
Could you do a little side business of slave trading under the OT?

I'm asking so maybe you'll clarify for us your take on parts of the law that were in the OT and are also in the NT.

 

[Edward]

I'm fairly certain that paul said at one point that the law is now for the Gentiles, to let them know how it is that they should live since they do not know God. I couldn't find it. Perhaps I am wrong about that.

Jesus sure did seem to bring what appears to be nine of the ten commandments into the new covenant in Matthew 5 though. The only one that seems to be missing is to keep the Sabbath day.

I don't deny that the law of Moses was abolished per se, but Jesus's words for us to live by in Matthew 5, carry heavy warnings for us that essentially say what the ten commandments did and are even more detailed than the ten commandments ever were. So yeah, we're free from the law in a technical sense but it is clear that we'd better behave and keep the commandments.

Stone adulterers? Sacrifice animals? Of course not. Jesus fulfilled the law. He paid for our sins and now we are not to judge adulterers, and the sacrificing of animals was not good enough to atone for mans sins. So Jesus came to fulfill that. I'm not sure what your point is there. Do you think I think we should be stoning adulterers and sacrificing animals? Uhh, no.

There may be some aspects of Moses law that are unneeded anymore. That does not mean that they are not eternally true, you have to keep things in perspective and understand that things were a lot different back then. For Christian folks though, keeping and respecting of the commandments is good practice, and getting hung up on the details of it seems to be an exercise of little utility.

 

[Drew]

I'm fairly certain that paul said at one point that the law is now for the Gentiles, to let them know how it is that they should live since they do not know God. I couldn't find it. Perhaps I am wrong about that.

I am quite sure that you are indeed mistaken about this - Paul believes that the Law of Moses has been abolished and that no one is subject to it anymore.

 

[Davies]

Drew,

If your position is that the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, is not for Gentiles, then why obey it at all? The problem with this idea of the Law, Ten Commandments, not being for Gentiles is when we do what the Law says not to do, it's a sin. If the Law, Ten Commandments, is not for me, then I still don't have permission to sin. As Christians, we are not under the Law, its consequences or its demands to obey it to be right with God. We don't have to fulfill the Temple laws because they have been satisfied in Jesus. Culturally, we don't follow Jewish laws because we are not part of that culture. But we should follow the Ten Commandments, not to be right with God (this would be placing ourselves under the Law again), but because we love God. This is called repentance; a turning away from sin. How do we know what is sin. It's a violation of the Law, Ten Commandments.

Romans 7:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup> ... On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-28099a&quot;"="" target="_blank">a]">[a]</sup>

The Ten Commandments are eternal.

Edward, keep the Ten Commandments because you love God. If you obey God for any other reason, then it's self-righteousness. If you obey another set of rules, then you create a yoke that won't be the same as the Jewish law, but it will be heavy enough to take you to hell.

Every time I use the word hell, I feel like I'm being heavy handed. I'm just saying it as plainly as I can.
John 14:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Promises Another Helper

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>“If you love Me, keep<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-26684a&quot;"="" target="_blank">a]">[a]</sup> My commandments.

Christians have the Holy Spirit to help them. The process is called sanctification, but you may already know this.

- Davies

 

[Free]

If your position is that the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, is not for Gentiles, then why obey it at all? The problem with this idea of the Law, Ten Commandments, not being for Gentiles is when we do what the Law says not to do, it's a sin. If the Law, Ten Commandments, is not for me, then I still don't have permission to sin. As Christians, we are not under the Law, it's consequences or it's demands to obey it to be right with God. We don't have to fulfill the Temple laws because they have been satisfied in Jesus. Culturally, we don't follow Jewish laws because we are not part of that culture. But we should follow the Ten Commandments, not to be right with God (this would be placing ourselves under the Law again), but because we love God. This is called repentance; a turning away from sin. How do we know what is sin. It's a violation of the Law, Ten Commandments.

This raises a bigger problem with your position: Are those things which are morally wrong, wrong because God says they are (see Divine Command Theory and the Euthyphro Dilemma)? I think that the answer is no. And when one understands why, one will see why in saying that we are not under the Law, there is still sin and why we essentially do follow the Ten Commandments. It's about the bigger picture of morality and why the Law was given in the first place.

 

[Davies]

Hi Free,

I'm not familiar with Divine Command Theory and the Euthyphro Dilemma, sounds like a big problem though, but God is the standard. God is the one who defines what is right and what is wrong. If God is not, then we can make up anything we want to, and frankly that's an abuse of the freedom we have. Because of our problem of not being able to obey God, Jesus came to do what the law could not do.
Romans 8:3-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.



When the commandment is given to not do something, what do we do. We do what we are not suppose to do. But because Jesus fulfilled the law, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that now we don't obey the law to be right with God, we are right. The law was weak in this manner, but because we are no longer under the law, we love God all the more and by His Spirit we obey the law. What the law was not able to do, allow a man a way to God, the Spirit does by the work established by the earthly ministry of Jesus, by faith.



Maybe I need to study what Euthyphro means. The trouble is, every time I put something in one side of my head, something falls out the other side. lol



- Davies

 

[Drew]

Drew,

If your position is that the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, is not for Gentiles, then why obey it at all?

First of all, when Paul (or Jesus) refers to the Law of Moses, they are not referring exclusively to the 10 commamdments. The 10 commandments are only a part of the Law of Moses.

I am indeed saying that the 10 Commandments are not for Gentiles. In fact, they are no longer for Jews either.

In short, they simply do not apply any more to anyone as a prescriptive code to guide behaviour.

Does this mean I am saying its ok to commit adultery? Or steal? Or bear false witness?

Of course not.

Here is the problem: it appears that many Christians, perhaps you included, seem to ignore the teaching that Paul provides: we are now guided by the Spirit, not the law.

Do you really need a law to tell to you that its bad to steal? I certainly hope not!

The point is this: when we have the Spirit guiding us, we no longer need to appeal to a set of "rules" to tell us how to live. If you think otherwise, are you not really discounting and trivializing the function of the Spirit. Remember these words of Paul:

But now we have been <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>released from the Law, having <SUP class=crossreference value='(J)'></SUP>died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in <SUP class=crossreference value='(K)'></SUP>newness of <SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Do you understand where I am coming from?