I Need Help

[Davies]

I am indeed saying that the 10 Commandments are not for Gentiles. In fact, they are no longer for Jews either.

In short, they simply do not apply any more to anyone as a prescriptive code to guide behaviour.

Psalm 19:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

If the law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul, then what you say sounds like the words of Satan.

Does this mean I am saying its ok to commit adultery? Or steal? Or bear false witness?

Of course not.

Here is the problem: it appears that many Christians, perhaps you included, seem to ignore the teaching that Paul provides: we are now guided by the Spirit, not the law.

By what spirit did Jesus speak when He gave us the sermon on the mount which is most certainly about the Law of God?

Do you really need a law to tell to you that its bad to steal? I certainly hope not!

What does Paul say concerning the Law?
Romans 7:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.â€<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-28099a&quot;"="" target="_blank">a]">[a]</sup>

It was by the Spirit that Paul understood that he was a sinner. Does the Spirit of God violate His own law? I don't think He expects us to violate it either.

The point is this: when we have the Spirit guiding us, we no longer need to appeal to a set of "rules" to tell us how to live. ...

Ignore the Law of God at your own peril.

What does David say, inspired by the Holy Spirit?
Psalm 119:105

New King James Version (NKJV)

ן Nun

<sup class="versenum">105 </sup>Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.


Isaiah 42:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,

A light unto the Gentiles... Jesus, who kept the law perfectly in letter and by the Spirit is a light unto the Gentiles.


Psalm 1:1-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Way of the Righteous and the End of the Ungodly

1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
<sup class="versenum">2 </sup>But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.

<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.

It's hard to believe that a person who identifies themselves as a Christian has hardened his heart to such a degree would say, "I am indeed saying that the 10 Commandments are not for Gentiles. In fact, they are no longer for Jews either."

I can't be too hard on you Drew. I've blasphemed God's name in worse ways. I hope we can understand the word repent, because God commanded us to repent if we want to spend eternity with Him.

Since the Law of God is a perfect reflection of Him, I think we should look into the mirror of the law to see what we look like in truth.

What else does Paul say?

Romans 7:22-25

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Drew, you are a wretched man. If you were walking by the Spirit of God, you would delight in the law of the Lord. I know that I am a wretched man, and it was the law of God that brought me to the foot of the cross.

Do you know what kind of advice Edward needed/needs for himself and for his friends? They need to hear the law of God so they will see their need for salvation.

Galatians 3:24

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

- Davies

 

[Drew]

Drew, you are a wretched man.....

We're done. Permanently.

 

[Davies]

Drew,

I was rereading your previous post, and you said something that I think Edward's two friends would agree with, "In short, they simply do not apply any more to anyone as a prescriptive code to guide behaviour."
Romans 12:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">18 </sup>If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.



- Davies

 

[Drew]

Here is the problem with saying that we are still "under the Law", including the 10 commandments. First, note how people introduce a distinction that is simply not there in the scriptures when try to argue that "the ceremonial stuff" has been abolished, but the "moral" part remains. Does Paul draw such a distinction? Never.

Second, it denies the plain teaching of Romans 7:

But now we have been <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>released from the Law, having <SUP class=crossreference value='(J)'></SUP>died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in <SUP class=crossreference value='(K)'></SUP>newness of <SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul could not be more clear - the Law has indeed been "superceded" or replaced by the Spirit. Now people will morph what Paul is saying into statements like "well, we have been released from the penalty of the Law, but we still have to follow it."

That is simply not what Paul is saying.

Another way of looking at this: if you really need to carry around a copy of the 10 commandments in your pocket so that it can guide your behaviour, you have big problems.

Imagine a married Christian, Fred, who meets an attractive woman in a bar. The thought of having sex with her crosses his mind. What would it say about the role of the indwelling Holy Spirit if Fred actually has to "check the list" to see if he can indulge the temptation?

I trust the point is clear: when we say that we need the Law to guide us, we are effectively declaring that the Spirit is unable to do so.

And that is simply not Biblical.

 

[Davies]

Another way of looking at this: if you really need to carry around a copy of the 10 commandments in your pocket so that it can guide your behaviour, you have big problems.

A person has a problem when they can't carry the Ten Commandments in their heart. Because we violated these laws, God had no other recourse but to go to the cross in order to redeem man.

- Davies

 

[farouk]

A person has a problem when they can't carry the Ten Commandments in their heart. Because we violated these laws, God had no other recourse but to go to the cross in order to redeem man.

- Davies

Davies:

So Sinai points us to the Cross, right? (I'm sure we agree there; that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.)

But does the Cross then turn us around and lead us back to Sinai?

I part company with the Reformed camp if they say this kind of thing.

Blessings.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,

I'm not familiar with Divine Command Theory and the Euthyphro Dilemma, sounds like a big problem though, but God is the standard. God is the one who defines what is right and what is wrong. If God is not, then we can make up anything we want to, and frankly that's an abuse of the freedom we have. Because of our problem of not being able to obey God, Jesus came to do what the law could not do.
Romans 8:3-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.



When the commandment is given to not do something, what do we do. We do what we are not suppose to do. But because Jesus fulfilled the law, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that now we don't obey the law to be right with God, we are right. The law was weak in this manner, but because we are no longer under the law, we love God all the more and by His Spirit we obey the law. What the law was not able to do, allow a man a way to God, the Spirit does by the work established by the earthly ministry of Jesus, by faith.



Maybe I need to study what Euthyphro means. The trouble is, every time I put something in one side of my head, something falls out the other side. lol



- Davies

What it comes down to is there are significant problems if we say either that something is morally good because God commands it (Divine Command Theory), or that something is morally good and that is why God commands it (both form the Euthyphro Dilemma).

But it's neither. Things are morally good because they find their basis in the character of God.

How this applies then is that if we say that the Law doesn't apply anymore, it in no way means that the morality underlying the Ten Commandments is removed. The Ten Commandments are not true because God gave them (which would make them and all moral commands arbitrary), they are true because they are based on his nature and character.

This means it is wrong to murder, to lie, and to steal, whether or not we do away with the Ten Commandments. I think this is where "walking in the Spirit" comes into play. It could perhaps be said that what is morally right and morally wrong is made all the more clear and sharp when one has the Spirit and walks by the Spirit. A people who are dull of hearing and hard of heart, walking without the Spirit, would indeed need things to be written down. And, of course, one of the main points of the Law was to set God's people apart from everyone else. That is now the Spirit's role.

 

[Drew]

How this applies then is that if we say that the Law doesn't apply anymore, it in no way means that the morality underlying the Ten Commandments is removed.

I agree. When I (following Paul and Jesus, I believe) assert that the Law of Moses has been retired, I am not thereby saying its ok to commit adultery and steal. As per a previous post: If there were no law against kicking puppies, would one thereby conclude that its ok to kick puppies?

Hopefully not. If one needs a prescriptive code to guide one's action, what is that saying about the effectiveness of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Free]

I agree. When I (following Paul and Jesus, I believe) assert that the Law of Moses has been retired, I am not thereby saying its ok to commit adultery and steal. As per a previous post: If there were no law against kicking puppies, would one thereby conclude that its ok to kick puppies?

Hopefully not. If one needs a prescriptive code to guide one's action, what is that saying about the effectiveness of the Holy Spirit?

Agreed. And the same applies to the question of slavery which was brought up. If I am not mistaken, there is no explicit statement against slavery in the entire Bible. But does that mean it is okay? Of course not.

 

[Edward]

Edward, keep the Ten Commandments because you love God. If you obey God for any other reason, then it's self-righteousness. If you obey another set of rules, then you create a yoke that won't be the same as the Jewish law, but it will be heavy enough to take you to hell.

Bullseye. I can wrap my mind around this. I think when Jesus summarized our behavioral commandments into two, one being Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as you would yourself, that covers a lot of ground, let me tell you. That's about as succinct as it gets.

Paul spoke of living for the Spirit while still living in the flesh which sin (seemingly) is tied to. But we do not live for the flesh but the spirit. So the sin in my members will sin but we should be ever mindful of God in our minds and hearts and live for the Spirit. It is not I that sin, but the sin that is in my flesh. Setting us apart from our flesh (and sin) to walk with the Spirit of God. Yay to be released from the flesh, and have no further bond to sin. (I hope that makes sense). I get it.

Friend one consciously embraces his sin (getting drunk). This is living for the flesh and not for the spirit. He needs to walk with the Spirit and say no to drunkenness.

Since the flesh is constantly warring with the mind, a conscious effort must be made to love God more than the flesh, with mindful decisions to do things that (may be) pleasing to God. (we could not please God, but repenting the sin to choose an activity other than sin...i.e., studying rather than getting drunk for instance) will affect your heart and what is written upon it. This is a conscious effort to walk with the Spirit and to seek God, to throw off sin. Repentance. We learn how to love God through repentance. But how can one who does not know God, make good decisions about how to behave? Reference the law?
Or so it seems to me.

 

[Davies]

What it comes down to is there are significant problems if we say either that something is morally good because God commands it (Divine Command Theory), or that something is morally good and that is why God commands it (both form the Euthyphro Dilemma).

But it's neither. Things are morally good because they find their basis in the character of God.

How this applies then is that if we say that the Law doesn't apply anymore, it in no way means that the morality underlying the Ten Commandments is removed. The Ten Commandments are not true because God gave them (which would make them and all moral commands arbitrary), they are true because they are based on his nature and character.

This means it is wrong to murder, to lie, and to steal, whether or not we do away with the Ten Commandments. I think this is where "walking in the Spirit" comes into play. It could perhaps be said that what is morally right and morally wrong is made all the more clear and sharp when one has the Spirit and walks by the Spirit. A people who are dull of hearing and hard of heart, walking without the Spirit, would indeed need things to be written down. And, of course, one of the main points of the Law was to set God's people apart from everyone else. That is now the Spirit's role.

Edward,

I'd like to respond to your post, #50, because you beat me to the punch when you said this:

I think when Jesus summarized our behavioral commandments into two, one being Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as you would yourself, that covers a lot of ground, let me tell you. That's about as succinct as it gets.

Plus what you said regarding walking by the Spirit and the struggle with the flesh makes sense to me. So, let me respond by addressing what Free has said, and I'll use Scripture to elaborate my points.

Free,

You said, "they[Ten Commandments] are true because they are based on his nature and character." I couldn't agree more with you on this, but where the path takes a sharp left turn is when we say, "the Law doesn't apply anymore," I couldn't disagree more. I'm not arguing that the morality of it is removed. I'm saying we follow the law by the Spirit. Here is my Scripture reference:
Romans 3:27-31

New King James Version (NKJV)

Boasting Excluded

<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. <sup class="versenum">29 </sup>Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


The question is asked, "Or is He the God of the Jews only?" No, God is the God of the Gentiles as well. We (Jews and Gentiles) do not make the law void. We do not forget the law. Rather we establish it. Another way of saying we establish it is we conform to the commandment by the Spirit, by faith. How do we obey the laws of God?; by the the law of faith. We repent and put our faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is imputed to our account while our sins are imputed to His account. Because God loved us, then we love Him. Because we are justified, we love Him. We keep His commandments.

Now, just in case there is any confusion on whether or not the Ten Commandments are for anyone today, Jews or Gentiles, let's review what Jesus commanded.

John 14:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Answered Prayer

<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.


John 14:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Promises Another Helper

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>“If you love Me, keep<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-26684a&quot;"="" target="_blank">a]">[a]</sup> My commandments.


Don't you think we should include the greatest commandments in the Bible?


Matthew 22:37-40

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">37 </sup>Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-23910a&quot;"="" target="_blank">a]">[a]</sup> <sup class="versenum">38 </sup>This is the first and great commandment. <sup class="versenum">39 </sup>And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;#fen-nkjv-23912b&quot;"="" target="_blank">b]">[b]</sup> <sup class="versenum">40 </sup>On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.â€


If you are going to say that the law of God does not apply to you, then you have to hold that these two commandments don't apply to you. I don't think so.


If the law of God does not apply to you then why did Jesus say this?


John 5:45

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">45 </sup>Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.


Fortunately, for those who are found in Jesus, our federal head, we no longer are under the threats of the law, nor are we bound by keeping it because we are made righteous by Jesus Christ.


Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


So, why should we keep the law? There is nothing left for us to earn before God, because it has all been earned for us by Jesus. Therefore, we go about doing good deeds to do the things God has created us to do.


Ephesians 2:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

This is our purpose in life: To glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.

Maybe I should get a tattoo of the Ten Commandments on my shoulder? What do you think, farouk?

- Davies

 

[Sparkey]

My thought on these types of discussions is that sometimes terminology itself can be the source of confusion. What if, instead of considering "The Ten Commandments" vs. "The Whole Law of Moses" (setting the stage for conflict) we used terms like "the Letter of the law" vs. "the Spirit of the law"?

A couple of examples might help. Consider our new covenant with God regarding Circumcision? Is it still required? What about the prohibition regarding eating with Gentiles? Can believing Jews eat with their brothers in the faith who are believing Gentiles? Do both follow the law of faith? Does being Christian mean that the boundary between Jewish believers and Gentile believers is set aside and voided? One last example: Do the requirements of the Year of Jubilee still apply? What Christian returns land ownership to the original owner or their heir after 49 years? If Gentile believers must adopt the "letter of the law" and every application, we could only lease land for no more than 50 years and never sell it outright.

Clearly the "letter of the law" has been set aside. Who needs it? The point has been made that no Christian should need a law prohibiting murder, only murderers need rules to prevent such behaviors. But the Spirit of the Law remains: "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment." The law of the Spirit is alive and active today. Yet, even though we know this in our hearts, too often our flesh has its way.

In the same manner, we don't need a rule to tell us to be faithful in our dealings with others. It's written into the heart of the Christian today because the writings in stone didn't work. They (those who were given the law) did not even know who Jesus was when He came, so poor was the law to the good purpose of revealing who God is. We are no longer required to circumcise babies, neither are we required to cut the foreskins of new believers in Christ. But the spirit of that requirement is still alive; in our hearts we know that we are to "cut away the desires of the flesh" and to be filled with the Holy Spirit wherein there is no excess.

Because the letter of the law has been replaced with the spirit of the law, all believers, both Jew and Gentile can (should) eat with each other. We are even told to share communion and "Do this in remembrance of Me." My thought here is that our unity in Christ should also serve to instruct us to speak to one another in peace, guided by His love for each.

 

[Drew]

Paul spoke of living for the Spirit while still living in the flesh which sin (seemingly) is tied to.

I do not believe Paul ever said such a thing.

I believe you are referring to Romans 7, a block of text that (and others) believe has been radically misread. Despite common belief to the contrary, Paul does not see as "split" in the sense you seem to believe.

Are you thinking of Romans 7?

Are open to a different view on Romans 7?

Since the flesh is constantly warring with the mind,...

I suggest that Paul is not saying this at all. In Romans 7, Paul is not describing the state of the believer, even though most Christians think that he is.

 

[Drew]

A couple of examples might help. Consider our new covenant with God regarding Circumcision? Is it still required? What about the prohibition regarding eating with Gentiles? Can believing Jews eat with their brothers in the faith who are believing Gentiles? Do both follow the law of faith? Does being Christian mean that the boundary between Jewish believers and Gentile believers is set aside and voided? One last example: Do the requirements of the Year of Jubilee still apply? What Christian returns land ownership to the original owner or their heir after 49 years? If Gentile believers must adopt the "letter of the law" and every application, we could only lease land for no more than 50 years and never sell it outright.

Excelllent point. Some Christians do not know about all the particularities of the Law of Moses. If someone really believes they are to obey the Law of Moses, then they would have to do all the things prescribed by the Law of Moses, including the stuff about the year of Jubilee (I am assuming that we are both correct in asserting that the Jubilee stuff is part of the Law of Moses).

I also agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Sparkey]

Excelllent point. Some Christians do not know about all the particularities of the Law of Moses. If someone really believes they are to obey the Law of Moses, then they would have to do all the things prescribed by the Law of Moses, including the stuff about the year of Jubilee (I am assuming that we are both correct in asserting that the Jubilee stuff is part of the Law of Moses).

I also agree with the rest of your post.

Thank you, my main point though was the attempt to point to WHY the Letter is replaced by the Spirit.

Men simply can not have their hearts truly changed without the Spirit of Christ in them. Those things that were given to the fathers of our faith were shadows of the things to come after the resurrection of Christ. (Col 2:17)

It [the Law] is written into the heart of Christians today because the writings in stone didn't work. They (those who were given the law) did not even know who Jesus was when He came, so poor was the law to the good purpose of revealing who God is.

The purpose of God was not worked through the law. (Jer 31:33)
Gentiles would not even be allowed into the fellowship of believers if the full force of the law (and its every application) remained written in stone especially as it was interpreted by such experts as the Scribes and Pharisees. It was only through the outpouring of the Spirit of God that the Christian Jews were convinced of the truth of the Scripture.

"And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God [to be] Judge of the living and the dead. "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we [have]?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days." - [Acts 10:42-48 NKJV]

And yet the Law, the Writings and the Prophets declared His Purpose:

The Law of the Spirit not only exceeds the Letter of the Law, it is by this very Spirit (the Spirit of Christ, now in us) that Gentiles were admitted into fellowship and called adopted Sons of God. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - [Mat 5:20 NKJV] How could such a thing happen, those who had not known holiness were now forgiven? Only by the kindness and goodness of God. These are the things that angels are eager to look into, the very things that show the glory of God. (1 Pet 1:12)

Jesus came to reveal His Father to all mankind. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [and] one shepherd." - (John 10:16)

But I digress. totopic

For the two friends mentioned in the OP such things apply. To Friend one, who is described as one who desires to argue that quoting Paul allows sin to continue in him unhindered, he needs to give diligence to seeing that he be found without spot and blameless (2 Pet 3:14). We are to look forward (according to His Promise) to the new heavens and new earth, wherein dwells Righteousness. Peter warns us to take care that we are not led away by the error of the wicked and fall from being steadfast. He even speaks about how some will argue about the things that Paul writes about in making their error (see 2 Pet 3:16).

For "Friend Two" who is reluctant to receive the Word of God (at this time) it is good to understand that we are to trust the Spirit of God to actually do the work of Salvation and also to assign to each of us our part in that process. "And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours." - [John 4:37-38 KJV]

If you sow and another man reaps, what is this to God? Will he not repay for your labors? He will! We are told not to allow ourselves to become weary in well doing. (Gal 6:9) (2 Thess 3:13)