Bible Study I was decieved

[th1b.taylor]

I listed just a couple small examples. The changes made to places where "ye" plural and "you" singular in the KJV to define this difference in a scripture probably numbers well over a thousand citings. Where it was mangled, over a thousand scripture changes.

Same where we might read this in the KJV:

Revelation 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Reads as this in the "God's Word translation."

Revelation 21:8
But cowardly, unfaithful, and detestable people, murderers, sexual sinners, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

NASB :8 unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in brimstone, which is the second death.”

I'd consider that a very dramatic addition/change. Why? Because orthodoxy/christian theologians KNOW and have known for hundreds of centuries that it can not be solidly determined that any PEOPLE are going to be in the LoF. And the more intelligent of the bunch make room for the possibility of PREVAILING or OVERWHELMING GRACE. To not make room for prevailing/overwhelming GRACE by such inserts is FALSE GOSPEL. Yeah, by one little word. The KJV adroitly translated to AVOID this kind of error.

I could have misread you, i do that from time to time but i read your post as an incitement of today's translations and as you should be able to determine from my use of the Word for Word translation that is not true. We must all seek the advise of Church Elders and be careful what we spend our money on but as I took you post, it just does not stand the test of truth.

 

[smaller]

NASB :8 unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in brimstone, which is the second death.”

I could have misread you, i do that from time to time but i read your post as an incitement of today's translations and as you should be able to determine from my use of the Word for Word translation that is not true. We must all seek the advise of Church Elders and be careful what we spend our money on but as I took you post, it just does not stand the test of truth.

I know the difference between "you" singular and "ye" plural, particularly when they are deployed in the same line of scripture. That difference is CRUCIAL. I understand if you don't get it. Not too many would.

As to the "people" citing, yeah, bad bad translating work. Just BAD.

 

[smaller]

So, rightfully, a couple of you might say the difference between "ye" and "you" is NO BIG DEAL. And say, "why would it be?"

In fairness, let's LOOK at why such a small matter of jots and tittles IS very important.

Start by looking at an unbeliever. Here, in 2 Cor. 4:4 we see the "construct" of the unbeliever:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There are in fact TWO parties PRESENT in that equation. The identical sight exists in Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8 and so many OTHER scriptures I can't begin to recite them.

Now, seeing the YE, do you understand the YE? And why the PLURAL was deployed?

Look at how Jesus spoke, here for example:

Luke 22:67
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

Still think jots and tittles aren't important???

Jesus does speak to YE when He speaks to YOU.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I know the difference between "you" singular and "ye" plural, particularly when they are deployed in the same line of scripture. That difference is CRUCIAL. I understand if you don't get it. Not too many would.

As to the "people" citing, yeah, bad bad translating work. Just BAD.

And you come back with a personal slander? Really? I had not made you for a hard left wing fool. And Ad Hominem attacks are forbidden and there is no way to corkscrew this into a comment on the subject matter. This one is just evil coming to the top.

 

[Roro1972]

Here we see examples of gutting...

Here's a small (very small) sampling of words removed in the NIV!

Matt. 6:13, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
Matt. 15:8, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth"
Matt. 19:9, "and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."
Matt. 20:7, "and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive."
Matt. 20:16, "for many be called, but few chosen."
Matt. 20:22, "and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with"
Matt. 25:13, "wherein the Son of Man cometh."
Matt. 27:35, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet They parted my garments among them and upon my vesture did they cast lots"
Mark 6:11, "Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
Mark 10:21, "take up the cross."
Luke 1:28, "blessed art thou among women"
Luke 4:4, "but by every word of God"
Luke 4:8, "get thee behind me Satan"
Luke 4:18, "he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted"
Luke 11:2-4, "Our ... which art in ... Thy will be done, as in heaven so in earth... but deliver us from evil"
John 1:27, "is preferred before me"
John 3:13, "which is in heaven"
John 3:15, "should not perish"
John 11:41, "from the place where the dead was laid"
John 16:16, "because I go to the Father"
Acts 10:6, "he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do"
Acts 15:18, "Known unto God are all his works"
Acts 20:24, "But none of these things move me"
Acts 23:9, "let us not fight against God"
Rom. 8:1, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"
Rom. 13:9, "Thou shalt not bear false witness"
I Cor. 6:20, "and in your spirit which are God's"
I Cor. 11:24; "Take eat... broken"
II Cor. 10:4, "but mighty through God"
Gal. 3:1, "that you should not obey the truth"
Eph. 5:30, "of his flesh, and of his bones"
Phil. 3:16, "let us mind the same thing"
I Tim. 6:5, "from such wthdraw thyself"
Heb. 7:21, "after the order of Melchisedec"
I Pet. 1:22, "through the Spirit"
I Pet. 4:14, "on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified"
I John 4:3, "Christ is come in the flesh"
I John 5:13, "and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"
Rev. 1:11, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"
Rev. 5:14, "him that liveth for ever and ever"
Rev. 14:5, "before the throne of God"
Rev. 21:24, "of them which are saved"

Jesus Christ says, in Luke 4:4, ". . . It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God." But not according to the NIV! In fact, the NIV even "TAKETH AWAY" the last half of Luke 4:4 - "BUT BY EVERY WORD OF GOD"! And Jesus Christ was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 to Satan! Does the NIV PERversion seriously think the Lord Jesus Christ does NOT know Duet. 8:3???

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/niv_exposed.htm

Im with you turnorburn many of the versions do harm to the word.

 

[smaller]

And you come back with a personal slander? Really? I had not made you for a hard left wing fool. And Ad Hominem attacks are forbidden and there is no way to corkscrew this into a comment on the subject matter. This one is just evil coming to the top.

Don't even start that parade with me again Bill. I've never slurred you ONE TIME.

I believe that you are SAVED, PERIOD. If that ain't good enuf sight for you, I don't know how better I can SEE YE.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Don't even start that parade with me again Bill. I've never slurred you ONE TIME.

I believe that you are SAVED, PERIOD. If that ain't good enuf sight for you, I don't know how better I can SEE YE.

I have not gotten upset in any manor but when you insinuated that I might not be smart enough to understand the difference, that is an ad hominem attack. I don't know, maybe you failed to consider appearance but you did post the slanderous slap. It is not important but it is neither kind.

 

[smaller]

I have not gotten upset in any manor but when you insinuated that I might not be smart enough to understand the difference, that is an ad hominem attack. I don't know, maybe you failed to consider appearance but you did post the slanderous slap. It is not important but it is neither kind.

Did I address that post to you??? Did I intend it as a SLUR?

No, and NO! It is only IN YOU that YE see this way. I don't have A SLUR to hold or a bone to pick with any believer. IF I believe you are saved, then the balance is conversation and nothing more.

So take the dog and pony to someone else who might buy that angle cause it ain't me buyin yer stuff.

 

[Roro1972]

So, rightfully, a couple of you might say the difference between "ye" and "you" is NO BIG DEAL. And say, "why would it be?"

In fairness, let's LOOK at why such a small matter of jots and tittles IS very important.

Start by looking at an unbeliever. Here, in 2 Cor. 4:4 we see the "construct" of the unbeliever:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There are in fact TWO parties PRESENT in that equation. The identical sight exists in Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8 and so many OTHER scriptures I can't begin to recite them.

Now, seeing the YE, do you understand the YE? And why the PLURAL was deployed?

Look at how Jesus spoke, here for example:

Luke 22:67
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

Still think jots and tittles aren't important???

Jesus does speak to YE when He speaks to YOU.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

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Loss of "thee" and "thou"

Please decide what God is saying to Moses:
"And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?" (Exodus 16:28, NKJV)
It looks like God is saying, "Moses, you are continuing to refuse to keep My commandments and My laws." But look carefully at the accurate King James:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" KJV
Now we understand! It was the people, not Moses, that God was upset with. "Ye" and "you" mean more than one person. "Thee," "thou," "thy," "thine," "doeth," "hast," etc., only mean one person. How do we know? The "y" is plural. The "t" is singular. Isn't that easy? Now you know what Jesus meant when He said to Nicodemus, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:7).
And then there is the therefore rule “ Anytime you see the word therefore back up 10 to 15 verses and make
Sure what the therefore is for”

 

[Malachi]

Do you have any examples of such "gutting"?

There are plenty of verses which have been removed wholesale form the Bible in the modern versions. Acts 8:37 is a good example, but you need to investigate every omissions (and there are thousands). Acts 8:37 has doctrinal significance.

It is not merely the beauty of the KJV which is evident throughout. It is also the spiritual power and the faithfulness of the translation to the traditional Hebrew and Greek texts. The translators were very careful to distinguish the words of God from their own words (placed in italics to assist in comprehension).

 

[Jim Parker]

Cited a couple of examples. The changes number in the several thousands or more. It's a common (legit) complaint among KJV onlyists. I'm not one, but I understand the legitimacy of the complaints.

Saying that there are issues is not "citing" an example. A citation includes chapter and verse of both the KJV and the other versions which you find deficient.
So, unless you did that, you cited nothing, You just posted your personal opinion.

 

[Jim Parker]

The Lord has an answer for "its just too hard to understand."
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Unless the Lord opens up the eyes of our understanding we're flaying at the wind..

Here's a bit of wisdom: Don't put a stumbling block in anyone's path like having him read the scriptures in an archaic language that no one speaks and can be difficult to understand rather than having him read if in a language he actually peaks.

 

[Corn Pop]

The reason I say I was decieved is because all the time I never had scripture to read, but I always had a 1800s KJV, but I never read it because I thought it was too hard to understand. But thats just lack of faith and the devil trying to turn me away from reading the truth I had all along, because the kjv is solid food for a better understanding, other translations are kind of watered down and too many footnotes.

 

[Roro1972]

Ezra 8:36: The KJV reads, "And they delivered the king's commissions unto the king's lieutenants. . .
" The "much clearer" NKJV reads, "And they delivered the king's orders to the king's satraps. . .
" Who in the world thinks "satraps" is "much clearer" than lieutenants? The NIV, NASV, NRSV, RSV - they do! They put in the same "much clearer" word!

 

[Jim Parker]

Here's a small (very small) sampling of words removed in the NIV!

They are absent from more than the NIV. They are missing from most modern translations.
And why might that be?
Here's a sample:
Matt. 6:13, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
- Not in the oldest and best manuscripts.
Matt. 15:8, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth"
- Not in the oldest and best manuscripts.
Matt. 19:9, "and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."
- Not in the oldest and best manuscripts.
Matt. 20:7, "and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive."
- Not in the oldest and best manuscripts.
Matt. 20:16, "for many be called, but few chosen."
- Not in the oldest and best manuscripts.
Matt. 20:22, "and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with"
- Not in the oldest and best manuscripts.

It appears that the modern translations removed what had been added over the centuries.
The KJV did not have the advantage of being able to draw from the manuscripts that are now available.
The modern translations did have that advantage and the translators used it to produce translations that are closer to the original manuscripts.
The KJV is based on the "Textus Receptus" which is "a work undertaken in Basel by the Dutch Catholic scholar and humanist Desiderius Erasmus. Although based mainly on late manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type, Erasmus' edition differed markedly from the classic form of that text, and included some missing parts back translated from the Latin Vulgate.

Erasmus adjusted the text in many places to correspond with readings found in the Vulgate, or as quoted in the Church Fathers; consequently, although the Textus Receptus is classified by scholars as a late Byzantine text, it differs in nearly two thousand readings from the standard form of that text-type, as represented by the "Majority Text" of Hodges and Farstad (Wallace 1989).
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus )

The transmission of the NT books is much more complicated than the average believer imagines. The idea that the "missing words" in the modern translations is due to some evil conspiracy among modern translators is, of course, patently absurd.

So, if you imagine that every word the KJV was "God breathed" and exactly what was originally written, you might want to rethink that. The very act of translating from Greek and Hebrew into English necessitates compromise because it is impossible to translate exactly word for word from one language to another. It is regularly necessary to convey the meaning rather than making a word for word translation.

For example, how is the Spanish phrase "echar mil flores" translated? Literally it is "to throw thousand flowers." What it means is to extensively applaud or highly praise. It comes from the tradition of throwing flowers (usu: roses) onto the stage after an excellent performance.

Translators don't just deal with words; they also deal with culture and history and must take all that into consideration w2hen rendering the meaning of a text into a different language.

The KJV is a good translation and it's language is poetic. (Per King James' instructions.) But it's not the only good translation and is not the best. The fact that it is in a language that is no longer spoken is enough to look elsewhere for a study Bible.

 

[Corn Pop]

when I was in school every report card was A;C;D;D;F;F;F and I read the KJV so Im sure you can unless your report card
is/was worse than mine

My school certificate was D,D,D,D,C.

The only subject I passed was biology.

But I have always had learning difficulties, if I read a paragraph of a book, because it has many things in that paragraph I cant remember them all, and at the same time cannot concentrate my mind automatically wanders away, I cant help it.

But the last couple years have been good, The Most High has really helped me, my learning has improved majorly and I can remember many many things in scripture.

So I never picked up the kjv I had because I kept telling myself it would be too hard to read. So I went months without reading a bible, but I had one all along.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Did I address that post to you??? Did I intend it as a SLUR?

No, and NO! It is only IN YOU that YE see this way. I don't have A SLUR to hold or a bone to pick with any believer. IF I believe you are saved, then the balance is conversation and nothing more.

So take the dog and pony to someone else who might buy that angle cause it ain't me buyin yer stuff.

Smaller,
You are making this to appear as though you are trolling, please don't go there. the only person with the top of their head coming off is yourself. This entire off subject rant here is over your pose #23 and yep, I am the person quoted and thus I am not stretching to imagine I'm the person addressed. I have repeatedly asked you to calm down and I ask you once more to show your better side here. You're in explosion mode and running from what you did and doing nothing to help yourself, please stop this.

 

[JohnDB]

English is the worst receptor language when translating the Bible.

Even 'the literal word for word" NASB isn't really word for word. There are too many idiomatic expressions and euphemism to do so. Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek and Early Latin tend to be too metaphorical to make a translation accurate.
Elizabethan English is slightly easier but really doesn't work out either.

But if you have no translation then people can't taste how sweet God's words are.

Every word is precious. Understanding it is beyond value.
One of the reasons Stephan was stoned was the way he translated the scriptures. It was Greek and not Hebrew.

 

[smaller]

Smaller, I am the person quoted and thus I am not stretching to imagine I'm the person addressed. .

I don't deal with your imaginations and innuendo's of what "you think" is there that ISN'T there Bill. Sorry.

 

[smaller]

The reason I say I was decieved is because all the time I never had scripture to read, but I always had a 1800s KJV, but I never read it because I thought it was too hard to understand. But thats just lack of faith and the devil trying to turn me away from reading the truth I had all along, because the kjv is solid food for a better understanding, other translations are kind of watered down and too many footnotes.

Bingo! Study or engagement of the scriptures, even in other paraphrasing is OK. But some of the finer points have been dramatically altered in a lot of paraphrased translations. There is enough in them for anyone, but they are not necessarily accurate for detailed studies and in a lot of cases they are just bad. No one turns into instant scholar from the moment of belief. Just be thankful you got there, no matter how.