Bible Study Idolatry

[Boyce]

Exodus 20:4-5
Is this saying that we can't have any images and cant worship them? Or is it saying we can't worship any images, but we can still have them..

It says "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." then it says "You shall not bow down to them or worship them." these sentences aren't connected but separate, that's what makes me think we aren't allowed to own any images and we aren't allowed to worship any images.

What are your views on this?

 

[Gary]

Deuteronomy 4....(NKJV)
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,



Who are the most recognizable (male & female) religious icons in the world? This passage tells me that if it's an act of corruption to make these things, it's also an act of corruption to possess them.
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[Obadiah]

You didn't cite the passage you are referring to, which is always a helpful thing to do in a Bible study. I'm assuming you are referring to Exodus 20:4-5 which says "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God..." (Exodus 20:4-5a, ESV)

When you go to the extreme of using this passage to say we can't have any images of anything at all I think you are missing the point of this passage. You are basing this idea on the fact that in whatever translation you are reading there is a period placed in there and probably also that it's two separate verses. However none of the punctuation or chapter and verse designations are part of the original inspired word of God. You can not base a doctrine on a period or on a verse designation.

When you look at the original language of the scripture you will see that the word translated to image is the Hebrew word "pesel". Pesel is defined as an image that is an idol, not just any image at all. So pesel isn't talking about a photograph, a statue, a drawn picture, or anything like that as long as those things aren't being venerated or worshiped. When you take away the period and verse separators that were added by translators who were not inspired by God to do so, it becomes clear that we are being told not to worship images or statues. We are not being told that all images are sinful.

In addition to proper understanding of the original language of this passage, there is also the concept of scripture being used to interpret scripture. The idea here is that God does not lie, does not make mistakes, and does not encourage people to sin against Him. There is much imagery used in scripture that is ordained by and sometimes even ordered by God (the arc of the covenant comes to mind, among other things). Also there is never an instance in scripture of God telling anyone to worship or idolize anything other than Him. This shows that the passage you are talking about can not possibly mean that all images are sinful. It is only speaking of the worship (idolizing) of those things being sinful.

 

[Gary]

It says "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." then it says "You shall not bow down to them or worship them." these sentences aren't connected but separate, that's what makes me think we aren't allowed to own any images and we aren't allowed to worship any images.

What are your views on this?

The way I look at idolatry in the bible is that we aren't supposed to look upon "any" image as a deity or savior. We're also not supposed to possess anything that depicts a deity or savior.


That's how I view this.
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[Obadiah]

The way I look at idolatry in the bible is that we aren't supposed to look upon "any" image as a deity or savior. We're also not supposed to possess anything that depicts a deity or savior.


That's how I view this.
.

Why can't we posses anything that depicts a deity or a savior (assuming you are talking about a picture of Jesus or God) as long as we are worshiping God and not the depiction itself? When a statue of what we think Jesus looked like (for example) serves to remind you of God and focuses your mind on Him there is nothing wrong with that. But if you pray to that statue as I see some people do some times, then that is where the sin comes into it, not in the mere possession of it.

Even a picture, statue, or whatever image of a false god isn't necessarily sinful to posses depending on your reason. If you have a picture of Buddha for example, and you use it to remind you to pray to Buddha that's obviously a sin and you shouldn't have it for that purpose. But if you have it because, well, let's say maybe you are teaching a class on other religions and why they are false and your picture of Buddha is a tool to illustrate part of your lesson, there's no sin in that.

Of course too, a lot depends on what areas a person is weak in. I personally have no problem seeing a picture of anything and realizing it's just a picture and nothing more. On the other hand, someone who is prone to be tempted to worship these images for whatever reason probably is wise to stay clear of them.

 

[Boyce]

The way I look at idolatry in the bible is that we aren't supposed to look upon "any" image as a deity or savior. We're also not supposed to possess anything that depicts a deity or savior.


That's how I view this.
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Ya not possessing any images seems a bit harsh. As long as we don't worship them or look up to them then we should be ok. I've only been a Christian for about 4 months now and have thought about buying a cross necklace but decided not to. Better safe than sorry.

 

[TOG]

I believe this refers to two things:

1. We are not to have or use any images (2D or 3D) that are or were meant to be worshiped or used in worship. This would include not only god's and goddesses, but also various other things to or through which worship is directed, such as phallic symbols or magic charms of various kinds.
2. We are not to have images (2D or 3D) representing deities, even if they are not used in worship.

If my understanding is correct, then we should not only not have idols, like many have (such as various Hindu idols, that people might have gotten as a souvenir or (Americans are going to kill me for this) the Statue of Liberty (Liberty was the Roman goddess of freedom)), but also that we should not have pictures or statues of Jesus, even though we don't use them in worship. They are most definitely an image of "anything in Heaven above". I do not believe that this commandment refers to pictures of our family members or friends, as long as they are not intended for ancestor worship.

The TOG​

 

[Gary]

Why can't we posses anything that depicts a deity or a savior (assuming you are talking about a picture of Jesus or God) as long as we are worshiping God and not the depiction itself? When a statue of what we think Jesus looked like (for example) serves to remind you of God and focuses your mind on Him there is nothing wrong with that. But if you pray to that statue as I see some people do some times, then that is where the sin comes into it, not in the mere possession of it.

Many aren't able to separate the two. That's why God said "don't".

Even a picture, statue, or whatever image of a false god isn't necessarily sinful to posses depending on your reason. If you have a picture of Buddha for example, and you use it to remind you to pray to Buddha that's obviously a sin and you shouldn't have it for that purpose. But if you have it because, well, let's say maybe you are teaching a class on other religions and why they are false and your picture of Buddha is a tool to illustrate part of your lesson, there's no sin in that.

What if someone uses Buddha as a reminder of Jesus?
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[Obadiah]

I would strongly suggest for a new Christian to read the Bible without any preconceived notions of what it says or what it means. Read it for what it says, not for what you've heard it says or what you think it says. Get a translation that's in modern English and easy to read so you actually will keep reading it and enjoy reading it. (Or go to one of the online Bible web sites such as Blue Letter Bible, or download the free E-Sword Bible software and all of it's free Bible versions modules.) Right now don't worry about minor translation differences that some people make a mountain out of. Just pick one that you find easy to read and understand and read it for what it is. And don't start with Genesis, you'll just get bogged down in endless and boring genealogy lists. Leave that to the theologians! Read a Gospel, like John or Luke. Maybe Mathew or Mark. Then read some of the letters that Paul wrote to various early churches giving them instructions. Maybe start with Galatians where you will learn about the love and grace of God rather than getting bogged down in a bunch of legalism.

When you read, do it at at time when you can read large sections at a time, just like you would read an exciting novel. Too many people read a few verses out of context and quit. Then the next time they read a few more verses out of context from a different part of the Bible. A lot of "devotional books" are guilty of encouraging people to look at scripture this way, but if that's all they ever do (and most Christians don't even do that on a regular basis) they never get the true picture of what scripture is saying. If you were reading a novel by your favorite author you wouldn't read a paragraph on page 30 then put it down only to come back the next day and read another paragraph but this time from page 387, etc, etc, A book or letter in the Bible was written and meant to be read as a whole, so if you sit down and read Galatians (for example) and read the whole letter in one or two sittings you will get a much truer picture of what God is trying to say to us.

Anyway, after you've done some of that you will notice more and more that you can go to your church Bible study or listen to the pastor's sermon and know what he is talking about and be able to know whether what you are being told is actually from scripture or if it's just someone's well intentioned advice that may or may not be right. If you read your Bible, just read it, you will be far beyond most of the people you see sitting in church on Sunday morning in your level of scriptural knowledge. The vast majority of Christians spend a far greater amount of time brushing their teeth than they do reading God's word! Then you can go back to areas you didn't understand and listen to people who have some real scriptural knowledge explain what they mean. Those people still may be wrong, but you will have a foundation on which to make that discernment, and will be able to much easier know who to listen to for your spiritual advice and growth.

 

[Obadiah]

Many aren't able to separate the two. That's why God said "don't". .

I still disagree that God said "don't" in the way you mean it here that we can't have any kind of image, whether it is an idol or not. I demonstrated that above. You also seem to have missed the part of my same post that you quoted here where I said:

Of course too, a lot depends on what areas a person is weak in. I personally have no problem seeing a picture of anything and realizing it's just a picture and nothing more. On the other hand, someone who is prone to be tempted to worship these images for whatever reason probably is wise to stay clear of them.

What if someone uses Buddha as a reminder of Jesus?.

I can't possibly take this as a serious question. I've never met anyone in my decades of following our Lord that would ever even think of doing this!

 

[TOG]

What if someone uses Buddha as a reminder of Jesus?.

I can't possibly take this as a serious question. I've never met anyone in my decades of following our Lord that would ever even think of doing this!

Buddha

Jesus

Nope... No danger of anyone getting those two confused. (Long sarcastic rant deleted. I'll let the pictures do the talking.)

The TOG​

 

[Gary]

I still disagree that God said "don't" in the way you mean it here that we can't have any kind of image, whether it is an idol or not. I demonstrated that above.

What about that passage from Deuteronomy? Does that no longer hold any sway?

You also seem to have missed the part of my same post that you quoted here where I said:

Ok, let's have a look at it.

Of course too, a lot depends on what areas a person is weak in. I personally have no problem seeing a picture of anything and realizing it's just a picture and nothing more. On the other hand, someone who is prone to be tempted to worship these images for whatever reason probably is wise to stay clear of them.

By your own admission they are a danger or could be for some people. If this is the case, why even have them? There's nothing in the bible that allows for the making or possession of these things. Instead, there are verses like the one from Deuteronomy that says it's an act of corruption to make these images. If it's an act of corruption to make one, what's it an act of to own one?

Shouldn't the fact that it's a danger to some be reason enough to get rid of them?

I can't possibly take this as a serious question. I've never met anyone in my decades of following our Lord that would ever even think of doing this!

Why do you think that is?

Serious question.
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[Obadiah]

Buddha

Jesus

Nope... No danger of anyone getting those two confused. (Long sarcastic rant deleted. I'll let the pictures do the talking.)

The TOG​

Yeah, well I don't know where you dug up that picture but it just goes to prove you can find anything on the internet. That doesn't mean that actual Christians not only have that picture but also venerate and worship it. I've never known a Christian to have a picture of Jesus that looked anything like that, and certainly never known any true Christians to idolize any pictures of Jesus. Those of us who are rational know we don't worship a picture.

And by the way, I know you didn't delete any kind of long sarcastic rant. As a staff member I would still be able to see it even if you had deleted it, so nice try but no soup for you!

 

[Obadiah]

What about that passage from Deuteronomy? Does that no longer hold any sway?

No, not in this case. I already addressed that in post #3 because it involves the same Hebrew word "pesel" as does the exodus passage, and it is speaking of idols, not about just any image.

Ok, let's have a look at it.

...Of course too, a lot depends on what areas a person is weak in. I personally have no problem seeing a picture of anything and realizing it's just a picture and nothing more. On the other hand, someone who is prone to be tempted to worship these images for whatever reason probably is wise to stay clear of them.

By your own admission they are a danger or could be for some people. If this is the case, why even have them? There's nothing in the bible that allows for the making or possession of these things. Instead, there are verses like the one from Deuteronomy that says it's an act of corruption to make these images. If it's an act of corruption to make one, what's it an act of to own one?

Shouldn't the fact that it's a danger to some be reason enough to get rid of them?.

That's not an admission, simply a statement of fact. I am a New Testament Christian living under the grace given to us by Jesus and the writings of the apostles to the New Testament Christians. I am not required to follow the legalism of the pharisees and I am certainly not limited to only have the things specifically mentioned in scripture to have. The lack of a command to have or do something does not equal a prohibition of it. You must realize also that those passages don't specify images of Jesus or Buddha. They are talking about all images that you actually use as idols. That includes even a picture of your family in your wallet if you idolize it! That's why it's obviously only referring to images used as idols and not all images. This is supported by the original documents and language that our English versions were translated from.

I live under New Testament concepts such as "One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him." (Romans 14:2-3, ESV) The subject here may have been some legalistic new Christians who thought it was sinful to eat meat, but the concept applies to this issue of "images" as well. Now this doesn't nullify passages such as those in Exodus or Deuteronomy about worshiping idols, but it does free us from the legalism of the pharisees who would put such burdens on us if they were able, to have us believe it is a sin to, for example, have a picture of Jesus or a cross hanging on your wall in your house. The problem I have with your interpretation of these passages is your misinterpretation that this applies to all images when the original language of the original documents shows it is speaking only of idols.

What if someone uses Buddha as a reminder of Jesus?

I can't possibly take this as a serious question. I've never met anyone in my decades of following our Lord that would ever even think of doing this!

Why do you think that is?
Serious question..

I stated I've never known anyone to do such a silly thing. That's not what I think, that's what I've experienced.

I think this has been quite enough on this. This is not a debate forum and you are using debate tactics to try to make it into one. I've said what I have to say on this matter. You can believe what you choose and I'll believe what I choose.

 

[Gary]

I think this has been quite enough on this. This is not a debate forum and you are using debate tactics to try to make it into one. I've said what I have to say on this matter. You can believe what you choose and I'll believe what I choose.

Sorry, didn't mean to upset you.
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[Gary]

Ya not possessing any images seems a bit harsh. As long as we don't worship them or look up to them then we should be ok. I've only been a Christian for about 4 months now and have thought about buying a cross necklace but decided not to. Better safe than sorry.

Who do you suppose this passage is referring to?

Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


Nowhere in the bible will find a verse or passage that makes allowances for religious images.
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[TOG]

Yeah, well I don't know where you dug up that picture but it just goes to prove you can find anything on the internet. That doesn't mean that actual Christians not only have that picture but also venerate and worship it. I've never known a Christian to have a picture of Jesus that looked anything like that, and certainly never known any true Christians to idolize any pictures of Jesus. Those of us who are rational know we don't worship a picture.

I found that picture by googling "Jesus lotus position". But what gave me the idea of googling that in the first place? Many years ago, I saw a documentary TV series about Christianity around the world. In the episode on India, they showed pictures of a church that had a statue (i.e. idol) of Christ in that position and people kneeling before it praying. And if you actually think Christians don't pray to statues, look at this.

I could have picked another statue many Christians pray to, but that would be against the TOS.

And by the way, I know you didn't delete any kind of long sarcastic rant. As a staff member I would still be able to see it even if you had deleted it, so nice try but no soup for you!

I deleted it before I posted it. Whether it was really all that long is debatable, but it was sarcastic.

The TOG

 

[Obadiah]

If you think people who pray to statues are truly Christians, than we have very different ideas on what Christianity is. Some superstitious guy in India that worships a statue has no bearing on my belief in Christ or on my understanding of the Word of God.

 

[Gary]

Some superstitious guy in India that worships a statue has no bearing on my belief in Christ or on my understanding of the Word of God.

That's not the case for countless millions around the world who kneel to these things everyday.

Deuteronomy 4....(NKJV)
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,


The two most recognizable religious icons in the world.

.........the likeness of male or female.


If these things are a stumbling block, and it appears that they are, they should be destroyed....all of them.


1 John 5....(NKJV)
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

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[TOG]

If you think people who pray to statues are truly Christians, than we have very different ideas on what Christianity is. Some superstitious guy in India that worships a statue has no bearing on my belief in Christ or on my understanding of the Word of God.

Whether they are truly Christians is not the point. Neither you nor I can make that call. The point is that the statue represents a deity, and is therefore an idol. An idol doesn't cease to be an idol if you personally don't worship it or if only non-Christians worship it. If it's a representation of a god or other deity, then it's an idol.

The TOG​