If Christ is the first born how can he be God

[jgredline]

Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.
(col 1:15)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
OR
( Col 1:18 ) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. The New King James Version. 1982

The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God.
See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28
But Paul seems to say that Christ was only a creature, the fisrt Born (created) in the universe..
How do we answer this? This passage reminds me of Ginger. Ginger where are you? Anyway back to the Scripture. The above two references show how Cults take single verses out of contex and make a case for what they beleive.

Now lets take a look at the scripture in contex and see what it really says.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

The New King James Version. 1982 (Col 1:15-18). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The answer to this riddle is simple.
Paul clearly declares Christ to be God in this very letter by saying he ''created all things'' (verse 1:16 one of the vesses they leave out) and has ''the fullness of the Godhead'' (see verse col 2:9 where Paul also affirms the deity of CHrist) the referance to ''first born'' does not mean he is the referance to fisrt born in creation, but the first born over creation (vese 15), since '' he is before all things'' ( verse 17) '' First'' born in this contex does not mean the first one to be born, but the heir of all, the creator and owner of ''all things''
Bottom line is he could not have been a created thing.

A simple rule of thumb or hermenutics is to remember that first pauls epistles are letters and should be read as letters and that none of the original scriptures have verse numbers or chapters. They were not there.
Its important to grab the complete thought.

What say you?

 

[thessalonian]

I agree.

From the Navare Bible Commentary:

29. Christ is called the "first-born" for many reasons. He is "the
first-born of all creation" (Col 1:15) because he is eternally begotten
and because "all things were made through him" (Jn 1:3). He is also the
new Adam and therefore the head of the human race in the work of
redemption (cf. 1 Cor 15:22, 45). He is "the first-born from the dead"
(cf. Col 1:18; Rev 1:5) and therefore is the head of all those who have
reached heaven and all who are awaiting their future resurrection (1 Cor
15:20, 23). Finally, he is the "first-born among many brethren" because,
in the order of grace, he gives us a share in his divine sonship: by
means of habitual grace--"sanctifying" grace--we become children of God
and brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. "For, just as God chose to
communicate to others his natural goodness, giving them a share in that
goodness, so that he might be not only good but also the author of good
things; so the Son of God chose to communicate to others a sonship like
his own, so that he might be not only a son, but the first-born of many
sons" (St Thomas Aquinas, "Commentary on Rom, ad loc.").

 

[Imagican]

And in this I disagree. For in the beginning, on the sixth day God said, Let US create man. You would have me believe that God is referring to 'three persons'. I don't believe this. I believe that Christ was 'begotten' previous to the creation of man and this is the 'proof' of it. For not only was Christ God's Son here on earth, but He was God's Son, previous to taking on the flesh, IN HEAVEN. For, you see, He WAS the 'first-born of EVERY creature. That means that HE was 'created' previous to the creation of ANY other 'creature'.

I do understand how difficult it is to 'read trinity' into scripture such as this. No doubt that many have spent many a sleepless night 'trying' to come up with 'ways to manipulate scripture' and 'mold it into' something that will allow for 'trinity'.

But, this is where the snag 'truly' lies, for these that 'create', do nothing but DENY the 'simplicity' that IS Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ IS the Son of God and it's really 'THAT' simple. It's ONLY when one decides to try and make Christ into 'something ELSE' that it becomes complicated. SO complicated, in fact, that those that 'accept trinity' don't even understand it.

And like ANY father and ANY son, the father is ABLE to 'give' the son ANYTHING that HE CHOOSES. A king, his kingdom, a doctor, his practice, a rich man, his wealth, etc, etc, etc.............. So too did God give to His Son, the 'power' and 'authority'. This Christ told us OVER AND OVER. And, since Christ WAS created BEFORE man, before Abraham HE WAS. And, according to the history of man, He too is the ALPHA and OMEGA of MANKIND. Yet the Father is the ALPHA and OMEGA of EVERYTHING, even that which existed BEFORE the creation of Christ, HIS SON.

So, you see, it's really NOT as complicated as 'trinity' would lead you to believe. One can CERTAINLY worship Christ as the Son WITHOUT 'placing' him BEFORE God. And there is NO NEED to worship the Spirit for THROUGH the Spirit is HOW WE ARE TO WORSHIP. While both, Christ AND The Spirit are certainly 'a part' of God, they are NOT God Himself. No Son IS his father. A part of his father NO DOUBT, but they are assuredly separate in entity regardless of HOW close they are in purpose.

 

[Oscar3]

And in this I disagree. For in the beginning, on the sixth day God said, Let US create man. You would have me believe that God is referring to 'three persons'. I don't believe this. I believe that Christ was 'begotten' previous to the creation of man and this is the 'proof' of it. For not only was Christ God's Son here on earth, but He was God's Son, previous to taking on the flesh, IN HEAVEN. For, you see, He WAS the 'first-born of EVERY creature. That means that HE was 'created' previous to the creation of ANY other 'creature'.

I do understand how difficult it is to 'read trinity' into scripture such as this. No doubt that many have spent many a sleepless night 'trying' to come up with 'ways to manipulate scripture' and 'mold it into' something that will allow for 'trinity'.

But, this is where the snag 'truly' lies, for these that 'create', do nothing but DENY the 'simplicity' that IS Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ IS the Son of God and it's really 'THAT' simple. It's ONLY when one decides to try and make Christ into 'something ELSE' that it becomes complicated. SO complicated, in fact, that those that 'accept trinity' don't even understand it.

And like ANY father and ANY son, the father is ABLE to 'give' the son ANYTHING that HE CHOOSES. A king, his kingdom, a doctor, his practice, a rich man, his wealth, etc, etc, etc.............. So too did God give to His Son, the 'power' and 'authority'. This Christ told us OVER AND OVER. And, since Christ WAS created BEFORE man, before Abraham HE WAS. And, according to the history of man, He too is the ALPHA and OMEGA of MANKIND. Yet the Father is the ALPHA and OMEGA of EVERYTHING, even that which existed BEFORE the creation of Christ, HIS SON.

So, you see, it's really NOT as complicated as 'trinity' would lead you to believe. One can CERTAINLY worship Christ as the Son WITHOUT 'placing' him BEFORE God. And there is NO NEED to worship the Spirit for THROUGH the Spirit is HOW WE ARE TO WORSHIP. While both, Christ AND The Spirit are certainly 'a part' of God, they are NOT God Himself. No Son IS his father. A part of his father NO DOUBT, but they are assuredly separate in entity regardless of HOW close they are in purpose.

Majic Man
I suggest you re read the original post because your questions are answered there and guess what? Your wrong
Good night.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Just time to say Christ was not created

John 1, Colossians 1 & Hebrews 1 make it crystal clear that Christ is the Almighty Creator in human form

That's why only He could pay the penalty for sin

Hebrew 'Elohim', translated 'the Lord', is plural - yet it is consistently used with singular verbs, to demonstrate the 3-in-1 Godhead

Jesus is called the Lord because He IS

Must go

Ian

 

[Imagican]

Come on guys. Man chose disobedience, (sin), to begin with. THAT is WHY Christ is refered to as 'the second Adam'. So, if man chose disobedience which brought sin into the lives of 'all men', then it was man that HAD to pay the 'price' for this sin.

Christ WAS offered by God. There is NO doubt of this. BUT, it was HIS SON that paid the price 'as a man'. How could God ask Himself upon the cross, "My Father, why hath thou forsaken me"? God asking HIMSELF? Rediculous.

Abraham was commanded by God to offer his son as a sacrifice to 'show his obedience' to God. Abraham followed this command. Now, is it really that difficult to understand that God could offer US no less than what He required of Abraham? The ULTIMATE sign of love; the sacrifice of one's child to show the LOVE to those to whom He offered the sacrifice.

For God HIMSELF to 'die' upon a cross is utter foolishness in the respect that we have been told that NO man has EVER seen the Father, (GOD). If Jesus Christ WAS/IS God, then the Word is false. Those that have seen The Son have seen an 'image' of the Father. Just as those that see me have witnessed an 'image' of MY FATHER.

For there to BE a Son, there MUST be a FATHER. And for the father to have a son, THE SON MUST be created. For in the beginning there was ONLY God. Did He or did He NOT create the angels? That means 'before' the angels were created, there were NONE. In this same regard was Christ 'created' AS THE SON.

I worship NO 'false god'. I worship GOD. I worship The Son also, but NOT AS GOD. I have 'created' NOTHING. I simply follow the Word to the best of my ability and pray for guidance and strength to do His will.

'Trinitarians' on the other hand, worship Christ AS God. This, IMHO, makes their Christ a 'false god' in that we have been COMMANDED to worship NO other gods 'before' the ONE TRUE GOD. The apostles DID NOT WORSHIP CHRIST AS GOD. They worshiped Him for EXACTLY WHO He was/IS; The Son of God.

You ignore ALL that was stated by Christ Himself concerning His Father.

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Hi Osca,

You wrote:

>>>Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.
(col 1:15)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
OR
( Col 1:18 ) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. The New King James Version. 1982

The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God.
See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28
But Paul seems to say that Christ was only a creature, the fisrt Born (created) in the universe..
How do we answer this? This passage reminds me of Ginger. Ginger where are you? Anyway back to the Scripture. The above two references show how Cults take single verses out of contex and make a case for what they beleive.<<<


You're right, let's have a close look at the Scriptures from which you have labeled me among those whom you call cults. Whether or not the verses you quoted are out of context or not deserves a better voice.

"The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning or ever the earth was. When there were no depths [oceans], I WAS BROUGHT FORTH - when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH." Pr.8:22-25 KJV.

Note the following passages in connection with the term, POSSESSER.

"And he blessed him, and said, 'Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, POSSESSOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH." Gen.14:19 KJV.

"And Abram said to the king of Sodom, 'I have lifted up mine hand unto the Lord, the Most High God, the POSSESSOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH." Gen.14:22 KJV. [Ditto for the NASB].


From the the Amplified Bible, the translation is, "...POSSESSOR AND MAKER of heaven and earth." From the NIV, that part of the passage is rendered, "...Creator of heaven and earth."


And again from, the NIV, the passage in Pr.8:22-25 reads as follows:

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH."


In Pr.8:30, it states, "Then I WAS THE CRAFTSMAN AT HIS SIDE. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in His presence." Which is in perfect harmony with Jn.1:1-2.

It is also in complete harmony with Col.1:15, where Paul states that He is the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And the term FIRSTBORN in vs 15 means exactly the same as it does in vs 18, exactly what the Word of God intended it to mean.

The issue here IS NOT ABOUT THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST, but rather the proper description of God as it has been passed on to us from the Word of God Himself. Jesus is not only the Son of God, he is literally God the Son, as well [Ps.45:6-7, Isa.7:14, Mt.1:23 and Heb.1:8-9].

There is more, but that is sufficient for now to support the Scriptural description of both YHWH as well as Y'Shua.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

I worship NO 'false god'. I worship GOD. I worship The Son also, but NOT AS GOD. I have 'created' NOTHING. I simply follow the Word to the best of my ability and pray for guidance and strength to do His will.

Hey I,

...and that is WORSE than this?:

'Trinitarians' on the other hand, worship Christ AS God. This, IMHO, makes their Christ a 'false god' in that we have been COMMANDED to worship NO other gods 'before' the ONE TRUE GOD. The apostles DID NOT WORSHIP CHRIST AS GOD. They worshiped Him for EXACTLY WHO He was/IS; The Son of God.

The Father and Son are the same!

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Um, I believe Thomas was a Apostle.8-)

Funny you would say you worship Jesus, but in other threads, the RC and others are accused of "worshipping" Mary and their Saints. You can't have it both ways... that's hypocrisy. ;-)

 

[jgredline]

Just time to say Christ was not created

John 1, Colossians 1 & Hebrews 1 make it crystal clear that Christ is the Almighty Creator in human form

That's why only He could pay the penalty for sin

Hebrew 'Elohim', translated 'the Lord', is plural - yet it is consistently used with singular verbs, to demonstrate the 3-in-1 Godhead

Jesus is called the Lord because He IS

Must go

Ian

Your exactly right. That is my point. There are many people on this board who actully believe Jesus was created. I sit back read their retorict and laugh.

 

[jgredline]

Re: Thread subject

Hi Osca,

You wrote:

>>>Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.
(col 1:15)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
OR
( Col 1:18 ) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. The New King James Version. 1982

The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God.
See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28
But Paul seems to say that Christ was only a creature, the fisrt Born (created) in the universe..
How do we answer this? This passage reminds me of Ginger. Ginger where are you? Anyway back to the Scripture. The above two references show how Cults take single verses out of contex and make a case for what they beleive.<<<


You're right, let's have a close look at the Scriptures from which you have labeled me among those whom you call cults. Whether or not the verses you quoted are out of context or not deserves a better voice.

"The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning or ever the earth was. When there were no depths [oceans], I WAS BROUGHT FORTH - when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH." Pr.8:22-25 KJV.

Note the following passages in connection with the term, POSSESSER.

"And he blessed him, and said, 'Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, POSSESSOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH." Gen.14:19 KJV.

"And Abram said to the king of Sodom, 'I have lifted up mine hand unto the Lord, the Most High God, the POSSESSOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH." Gen.14:22 KJV. [Ditto for the NASB].


From the the Amplified Bible, the translation is, "...POSSESSOR AND MAKER of heaven and earth." From the NIV, that part of the passage is rendered, "...Creator of heaven and earth."


And again from, the NIV, the passage in Pr.8:22-25 reads as follows:

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH."


In Pr.8:30, it states, "Then I WAS THE CRAFTSMAN AT HIS SIDE. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in His presence." Which is in perfect harmony with Jn.1:1-2.

It is also in complete harmony with Col.1:15, where Paul states that He is the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And the term FIRSTBORN in vs 15 means exactly the same as it does in vs 18, exactly what the Word of God intended it to mean.

The issue here IS NOT ABOUT THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST, but rather the proper description of God as it has been passed on to us from the Word of God Himself. Jesus is not only the Son of God, he is literally God the Son, as well [Ps.45:6-7, Isa.7:14, Mt.1:23 and Heb.1:8-9].

There is more, but that is sufficient for now to support the Scriptural description of both YHWH as well as Y'Shua.

Blessings,

Quasar

Quaser
I believe you were directing this to me.
You don't make any sense. Your pulling single verses or sections from through out the OT to try and fit your beliefs to the scripture I quoted above.

First lets take a look at Proverbs 8:22-36 to grab the COMPLETE scripture.

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the Lord;
36 But he who sins against me wwrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.â€Â
The New King James Version. 1982 (Pr 8:22-36). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Now lets take a look at what all this reall means.

Wisdom can be fittingly applied to the Lord Jesus, since the NT refers to Him as Wisdom (Matt. 11:19; Luke 11:49; 1 Cor. 1:24,30; Col. 2:3). Nowhere is the application more clear and beautiful than in the following verses. The Christian Church has consistently regarded this paragraph as referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.
What then do we learn about Christ in “this noble specimen of sacred eloquence�
8:22 His eternal generation: “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way.†We must not understand the word “possessed†as implying that Christ ever had a beginning. God never existed without the quality or attribute of wisdom, and neither did He ever exist without the Person of His Son. The meaning here is exactly the same as in John 1:1: “In the beginning ... the Word was with God. ... â€Â
8:23 His appointment from eternity. “Established†means anointed or appointed. Long before creation took place, He was appointed to be the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the world.
8:24–26 His pre-existence. The words “brought forth†must not be taken to mean that He was ever created and thus had a beginning. They are poetic language describing the Son’s eternal existence and His personality as being distinct from that of God the Father.
The primal dust refers to the beginnings of the world.
8:27–29 His presence at creation. He was there when the heavens were stretched over the land and sea, when clouds were formed, and fountains and springs began gushing forth. He was there when the boundaries of the oceans were decided upon, the waters being commanded not to pass beyond the limits set. He was there when the foundations of the earth were made, including the internal structure that supports the outer crust.
8:30a His activity in creation. Here we learn that the Lord Jesus was the active Agent in creation. The NKJV correctly renders the first part of verse 30, “Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman. ... †This agrees, of course, with John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; and Hebrews 1:2.
8:30b His position of affection and delight ... before God. The eternal and infinite love of the Father for His Son increases the marvel that He would ever send that Son to die for sinners.
8:30c His personal delight before God. This magnifies the grace of our Lord Jesus Christâ€â€that He would ever leave that scene of pure and perfect joy to come to this jungle of shame, sorrow, and suffering.
8:31 His rejoicing in the inhabited world. It is amazing that out of all the vast universe, He should be especially interested in this speck of a planet.
His special delight in the sons of men. The final wonder is that He should set His affection upon the rebel race of men.
8:32–36 This final paragraph sets forth the eternal issues involved in man’s response to Wisdom’s call. It pronounces a blessing on those who listen to her instruction, walking in her ways. It promises happiness to those who wait daily at her gates, who keep faithful vigil at her doors. It holds out life and divine favor to those who find her, but personal loss and death to those who miss her.
Apply these last two verses to Christ. Whoever finds Him receives eternal life and stands in full favor with God (see John 8:51; 17:3; Eph. 1:6; 1 John 5:12). But those who miss Him injure themselves, and those who hate Him love death (cf. John 3:36b).

The proverb you pointed to if anything affirms the diety of Christ.

Now lets take a look at Gen 14:19 and see what it really means. First you need to put it in contex. We need to start at Gen 14:18-20

18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said:
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.â€Â
The New King James Version. 1982 (Ge 14:18-20). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Now lets take a look at what it really means. It makes sense when its in contex.
14:18 “Melchizedek,†meaning “my king is righteousness,†is described as the “king of Salem,†i.e., the “king of peace.†The appearance of Melchizedek, a worshiper and even priest of “God Most High†(cf. Ps. 78:35), is unexplained. No parentage or lineage, beginning or end is mentioned. He is taken, then, as a type of the priesthood of Christ (Heb. 7:1–10), whose priesthood is not connected with Aaron. Some even suppose Melchizedek to have been an appearance of the preincarnate Christ.
14:20 Abram apparently knew more about Melchizedek than is recorded in Scripture. Abram “gave him a tithe†of all. Thus, tithing was practiced 500 years before the Mosaic Law. Abram commenced it, Moses commanded it (Deut. 12:6), and Christ Himself commended it (Luke 11:42). Cf. also Mal. 3:8–10,

Quaser
Again take a close look at the original scripture Col 1:15-18
Remember. This letter Paul wrote to the colossians is just that, A letter. Do you think the people in colosse said. ''Hey lets take a look at the book of Gen and Proverbs to figure out what paul is telling us.'' Of course not. All the information was in the letter. Paul is making his case that Jesus is God.
So as you can see the above verses have nothing to do with what Col 1:15-18 is saying.

Quaser
I know I will not be able to change your mind and nor am I trying to change your mine. My defense of the faith and proper exposition is for people like Oscar who is learning and is hungry for truth. I do Pray that the Holy Spirit (Wisdom) will speak to your and other peoples hearts that deny Jesus is GOD.

What say you?

 

[MrVersatile48]

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1

The Supremacy of Christ

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1

The Son Superior to Angels

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]"? Or again,
"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him." 7In speaking of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire."[e] 8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever

 

[Vic C.]

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

Ah, how sweet it is and how simple can it be:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Oscar3]

Re: Thread subject

Hi Osca,

You wrote:

>>>Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.
(col 1:15)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
OR
( Col 1:18 ) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. The New King James Version. 1982

The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God.
See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28
But Paul seems to say that Christ was only a creature, the fisrt Born (created) in the universe..
How do we answer this? This passage reminds me of Ginger. Ginger where are you? Anyway back to the Scripture. The above two references show how Cults take single verses out of contex and make a case for what they beleive.<<<


You're right, let's have a close look at the Scriptures from which you have labeled me among those whom you call cults. Whether or not the verses you quoted are out of context or not deserves a better voice.

"The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning or ever the earth was. When there were no depths [oceans], I WAS BROUGHT FORTH - when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH." Pr.8:22-25 KJV.

Note the following passages in connection with the term, POSSESSER.

"And he blessed him, and said, 'Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, POSSESSOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH." Gen.14:19 KJV.

"And Abram said to the king of Sodom, 'I have lifted up mine hand unto the Lord, the Most High God, the POSSESSOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH." Gen.14:22 KJV. [Ditto for the NASB].


From the the Amplified Bible, the translation is, "...POSSESSOR AND MAKER of heaven and earth." From the NIV, that part of the passage is rendered, "...Creator of heaven and earth."


And again from, the NIV, the passage in Pr.8:22-25 reads as follows:

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH."


In Pr.8:30, it states, "Then I WAS THE CRAFTSMAN AT HIS SIDE. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in His presence." Which is in perfect harmony with Jn.1:1-2.

It is also in complete harmony with Col.1:15, where Paul states that He is the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And the term FIRSTBORN in vs 15 means exactly the same as it does in vs 18, exactly what the Word of God intended it to mean.

The issue here IS NOT ABOUT THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST, but rather the proper description of God as it has been passed on to us from the Word of God Himself. Jesus is not only the Son of God, he is literally God the Son, as well [Ps.45:6-7, Isa.7:14, Mt.1:23 and Heb.1:8-9].

There is more, but that is sufficient for now to support the Scriptural description of both YHWH as well as Y'Shua.

Blessings,

Quasar

Hello Mr Quesar
While I don't recall calling you a cult, I will say this. If the shoe fits and apperantly it does from what I can read, than so be it. You are of cultish beliefs. Now to answer your question above. Oh Wait jgredline already answered it and its a good thing because I would not have been able to answer like that. I am not smart enough for that. Then again I am smart enough to believe in the deity of Christ, so go figure.
Have a nice day.

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Quote by Oscar:

>>>Quaser
Again take a close look at the original scripture Col 1:15-18
Remember. This letter Paul wrote to the colossians is just that, A letter. Do you think the people in colosse said. ''Hey lets take a look at the book of Gen and Proverbs to figure out what paul is telling us.'' Of course not. All the information was in the letter. Paul is making his case that Jesus is God.
So as you can see the above verses have nothing to do with what Col 1:15-18 is saying.

Quaser
I know I will not be able to change your mind and nor am I trying to change your mine. My defense of the faith and proper exposition is for people like Oscar who is learning and is hungry for truth. I do Pray that the Holy Spirit (Wisdom) will speak to your and other peoples hearts that deny Jesus is GOD.

What say you?<<<



You have been shown the Scriptures that reveal the autobiography of the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus, in Pr.8, which is about the amenities, pitfalls and what Wisdom of God is all about. However, verses 22-36 IS ABOUT THE WHO God's Wisdom is, as found in 1 Cor.1:24, and Col.2:2-3.

Verse 22 states, "THE LORD BROUGHT ME FORTH AS THE FIRST OF HIS WORKS, before His deeds of old." Col.1:15 states that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION. And the term 'FIRSTBORN' MEANS EXACTLY THE SAME IN VS 15 AS IT DOES IN 18, WHERE THE SCRIPTURES STATE Jesus IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM AMONG THE DEAD. No amount of rationalizing is going to change the simple, literal meaning of the Scriptures.


Quote by Oscar:

>>>Hello Mr Quesar
While I don't recall calling you a cult, I will say this. If the shoe fits and apperantly it does from what I can read, than so be it. You are of cultish beliefs. Now to answer your question above. Oh Wait jgredline already answered it and its a good thing because I would not have been able to answer like that. I am not smart enough for that. Then again I am smart enough to believe in the deity of Christ, so go figure.
Have a nice day.<<<


I would suggest you confine judging others to matters that pertain to yourself, not to others. Rather than express unsupportable opinion, try validating your allegations with support from the Scriptures, otherwise it is completely invalid.

You might try this other little exercise: Ask ten or twelve people to explain the doctrine of the Trinity to you - and you will have ten or twelve different answers.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Solo]

Hey Oscar,
Don't let others hide behind the "judge not lest ye be judged" hide away.
Brothers are to judge another brother's actions, and doctrine. That is what the Word of God is for; to learn right from wrong, and then to correct, reprove, and instruct.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Remember what Paul wrote to the Corinthians:

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13

Even if one is not a brother but claims to be, we are to judge them and reprove, correct, and instruct so that they may repent and live a life bringing glory to God Almighty.

.

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Quote by Solo;

>>>Hey Oscar,
Don't let others hide behind the "judge not lest ye be judged" hide away.
Brothers are to judge another brother's actions, and doctrine. That is what the Word of God is for; to learn right from wrong, and then to correct, reprove, and instruct.<<<


Oh, then it's OK for me to call trinitarians cultists, without Scriptural support for expressing nothing but personal opinion? I think you might be coming off a little self righteous with that post, don't you think?

Are you in doubt as to my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as my own personal savior for the past 69 years?

Peace,

Quasar

 

[jgredline]

Re: Thread subject

Are you in doubt as to my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as my own personal savior for the past 69 years?

Peace,

Quasar

Quasar
Are you saying that you have been calling yourself a Christian for 69 years?
If this is so, then your in trouble my friend. I will add you to my prayer list.
God Bless you, find you and keep you. May you hear his voice as he calls you.
jg

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Re: Thread subject

Are you in doubt as to my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as my own personal savior for the past 69 years?

Peace,

Quasar

Quasar
Are you saying that you have been calling yourself a Christian for 69 years?
If this is so, then your in trouble my friend. I will add you to my prayer list.
God Bless you, find you and keep you. May you hear his voice as he calls you.
jg

"Whosoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God" (1John.4:15)

Quasar, do you confess that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Solo]

Re: Thread subject

Quote by Solo;

>>>Hey Oscar,
Don't let others hide behind the "judge not lest ye be judged" hide away.
Brothers are to judge another brother's actions, and doctrine. That is what the Word of God is for; to learn right from wrong, and then to correct, reprove, and instruct.<<<


Oh, then it's OK for me to call trinitarians cultists, without Scriptural support for expressing nothing but personal opinion? I think you might be coming off a little self righteous with that post, don't you think?

Are you in doubt as to my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as my own personal savior for the past 69 years?

Peace,

Quasar

I know that those who do not know Jesus is God, do not know Jesus, nor do they know God the Father. Jesus called those in the Old Testament who said they knew God but did not believe that he was God, vipers and hypocrites. I have no righteousness of my own. I only have the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to me as he came in the flesh to overcome sins wickedness. If you know Jesus Christ as LORD then you know him as God almighty. If you do not know Jesus as LORD then you have been deceived.

 

[mutzrein]

The Father and Son are the same!

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

In that case Vic - what does this mean? - taken from John 17.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."