If God Loved everyone !

[Orion]

Well, Vic, . . . that would be a great characteristic to "fix broken vessels", so to speak. I just am not one who believes that any good deed can be done for the sole purpose of "glorifying one's self". Doing good should be done, even if no return on it is ever made. Having said that, it would be a common curtesy to say, "thank you!"

Thanks for your input.

 

[shad]

Well, Vic, . . . that would be a great characteristic to "fix broken vessels", so to speak. I just am not one who believes that any good deed can be done for the sole purpose of "glorifying one's self". Doing good should be done, even if no return on it is ever made. Having said that, it would be a common curtesy to say, "thank you!"

Thanks for your input.

Orion,

The Bible says that all good things come from God. So we should be thankful to God in all good things.

.

 

[savedbygrace57]

orion says:

God didn't "form me"!

I know, you formed yourself..

Jer 1:

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scripture plainly indicates that in times past, from the tower of babel until after pentecost, that God suffered all nations to walk in their own ways acts 14:

16Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

and these ways were the ways of death without divine revelation prov 14:

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

God told Israel, you only have I known of all the families of the earth, amos 3:2a..

How can anyone with these scriptures evidences before them, rationally conclude that God loved all mankind in the past ? And if not then, why would He now ? God certainly has not changed ! Gods love has always been in Christ Jesus rom 8:

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

it is this Love of God in Christ Jesus that is the source of salvation, either in the OT or NT..

People still reject clear cut scripture and will insist blindly that world in Jn 3 16 means world as in all of mankind..but lets look at Jn 7:

4For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

Was Jesus here suppose to show himself to every individual in the world ?

or Jn 12:

19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Does this mean every body in the whole wide world without exception was gone after him ?

This goes to show the ridiculousness of holding that the world means world without any modifiers in scripture.

And those who put themselves up as preachers and teachers of Gods sacred word, and carelessly preach error, will be judged accordingly..

 

[RND]

If God loved everyone, whats the sense of Jesus making a statement like this ?

Jn 14:

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Why say this if God loves everyone any way ?

God loves everyone but only comes on those who are willing to love God by obeying Him.

 

[RND]

Orion, don't get too bent over the Romans 9 passage. Paul is using a passage from Jer 18 to make a point. If you read Jer 18:3-6, the so-called "vessels of destruction" were actually a marred vessel which the Potter reformed into a good one. It's an analogy showing the true sovereignty of God.

What I take away from this is not that He makes vessels for the sole purpose for destruction, but that He is sovereign and can take marred vessels like us and shape us into a vessel worthy of His Grace and to be used for His glory.

Excellent Vic.

 

[savedbygrace57]

If God loved everyone, whats the sense of Jesus making a statement like this ?

Jn 14:

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Why say this if God loves everyone any way ?

God loves everyone but only comes on those who are willing to love God by obeying Him.

No God does not love everyone, scriture never says that, you are making it up..

ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The word world has been abused by the false teachers of the antichrist..

I have shown previously were the word world kosmos has been used in Holy Writ, and the meaning could not have been every single individual, man women boy and girl in the world.. Jn 7 :

4For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
Jn 12:

19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Now lets look at rom 1:

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

does this mean that the Faith of the roman saints was the topic of conversation of every man and women and boy and girl in the whole world ? I don't think so, but this is a relative expression and not absolute..

How about rev 13:

3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.


A different word for word than kosmos, the word is ge and means:

arable land

2) the ground, the earth as a standing place

3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water

4) the earth as a whole

a) the earth as opposed to the heavens

b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals

5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

No doubt John means B the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals..

But can this be taken in its all inclusive absolute sense ? was not there any obvious exceptions ?

Yes, those whose names that had been written in the book of life..vs

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Again, the word world in the bible more often than not, when dealing with salvation has a relative meaning rather than a absolute meaning.

In Jn 3 16 when Jesus was discoursing to Nicodemus, a man who believed that Gods Love and mercy was confined to his nation, Jesus began to enlighten him on the extended boundaries of Gods Love in Himself Christ Jesus. Jesus was opening up to Nicodemus, Gods Eternal Purpose in Him, that included the gentiles, that God had a merciful and loving purpose for the heathen i.e

Gal 3:

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

Nicodemus was ignorant of this purpose, and so was peter and the others..

eph 3:


3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Thats why Jesus or jn 3 16 reads what it says about the world..

The same holds true for 1 jn 2:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The whole scope of the world is here intended both geographically and time wise..

It was a manifestation of the scope of the True children of Abraham, not Just in Israel but the scope of the whole world Gen 12:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

For Abraham was made the Father of many nations gen 17:

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

See the Jews did not understand that Abraham was the Father of gentiles too..though it was in a different manner..

 

[glorydaz]

For God so Loved the World" This cannot mean the entire human race, which would include all mankind from Adam to the end of world history. What about those before Christ, who Paul says were without God and without hope eph 2:12

[quote:1tzw0qfx]
Now for those who were in the world without hope and without God, how in the world could it be argued that God Loved them ? This truth here is enough to overturn the misconception that God Loved all mankind..

[/quote:1tzw0qfx]
Man is without excuse. God makes Himself known to all men. He always has.
Man alone is responsible for turning away from the love of God.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God is no respecter of persons...He has been the same from the beginning. His law has always been written in the heart of man. Sin is the ony thing that separates man from the love of God.

11For there is no respect of persons with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

(His eternal law has always been written in the heart of man).

Look at Cain and Abel..God looked right into their hearts....just as he looks into ours.
God is light and righteousness...it's the darkness (sin) He hates. It's man's choice to follow the light or the darkness....to accept or reject the love of God.

And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

 

[RND]

No God does not love everyone, scriture never says that, you are making it up..

ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

You are certainly free to believe whatever you wish.

Christ died for all who would come to Him, to look upon Him. Yet each man has a choice to either look or not to look.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

All men that choose to look at Christ on the cross will be drawn to Him. Those that choose not to look will not be drawn unto Christ.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

[RND]

No God does not love everyone, scriture never says that, you are making it up..

Man it must be tough living in a way in which you believe that God somehow loves you but doesn't love your neighbor. Are you more righteous than others or is your righteousness attributable to Jesus Christ alone? Are you a better sinner than they are? If Christ died for you did He not die for your neighbor as well?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The term "filthy rags" refers to the rags used to relieve menstrual discharge - that should give you an idea of what God thinks of one's righteousness outside of Jesus Christ.

filthy = 'ed = from an unused root meaning to set a period (compare '`adah' (5710), '`uwd' (5749)); the menstrual flux (as periodical); by implication (in plural) soiling:--filthy.

 

[savedbygrace57]

No God does not love everyone, scriture never says that, you are making it up..

ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

You are certainly free to believe whatever you wish.

Christ died for all who would come to Him, to look upon Him. Yet each man has a choice to either look or not to look.

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

All men that choose to look at Christ on the cross will be drawn to Him. Those that choose not to look will not be drawn unto Christ.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

All those verses refer to all the church, the elect of God..

Not the workers of iniquity ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

No God does not love everyone, scriture never says that, you are making it up..

Man it must be tough living in a way in which you believe that God somehow loves you but doesn't love your neighbor. Are you more righteous than others or is your righteousness attributable to Jesus Christ alone? Are you a better sinner than they are? If Christ died for you did He not die for your neighbor as well?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The term "filthy rags" refers to the rags used to relieve menstrual discharge - that should give you an idea of what God thinks of one's righteousness outside of Jesus Christ.

filthy = 'ed = from an unused root meaning to set a period (compare '`adah' (5710), '`uwd' (5749)); the menstrual flux (as periodical); by implication (in plural) soiling:--filthy.

All that is good you posted, but nevertheless, God does not Love all men, some He hates and created them as vessels of wrath..and some, whom He loved, created as vessels of mercy..

 

[Veritas]

All those verses refer to all the church, the elect of God..

Those verses do not say "elect", they say "all". The bible says "for God so loved the world", not "for God so loved the elect"

 

[mondar]

All those verses refer to all the church, the elect of God..

Those verses do not say "elect", they say "all". The bible says "for God so loved the world", not "for God so loved the elect"

Veritas,
I have often heard John 3:16 mentioned apart from the context concerning the definition of the term "world." If the term "world" signifies "every single person that ever lived," lets put that in verse 17.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
Now if we look at the term consistently in the same way in verse 17 also, that would not lead to an Arminian (or non-Calvinist) interpretation, but a universalist interpretation. If we understand the term "world" to mean "every single person that every lived" in verse 17, then is not "every single person that ever lived saved?

The problem with a universalist reading of the term "world" as meaning "every single person that ever lived" would be in verse 18.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The ones who do not have faith are judged. Verse 17 clearly says that God did not send his son into the world to "judge the world." Then in verse 18 he says that the unbeliever is judged. It seems logical to understand that in this context the "world" does not include unbelievers.

In fact the term "world" (? ??????) has a variety of meanings in different contexts. To read it to mean "every single person that ever lived" in this context leads only to universalism.

 

[RND]

All those verses refer to all the church, the elect of God..

Not the workers of iniquity ps 5:

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

You remind me of the Pharisees that ragged how saved and righteous he was yet looked down on others especially the Publican that would even dare look up to heaven.

How do you expect to be forgiven when you refuse to forgive? How do you plan to see heaven when you paint such a distorted view of God and His great mercy?

 

[RND]

All that is good you posted, but nevertheless, God does not Love all men, some He hates and created them as vessels of wrath..and some, whom He loved, created as vessels of mercy..

You have a completely warped understanding of the word of God.

God indeed loves all men because He gave His son to all that would believe on Him should not perish but have eternal life. "Whosoever" includes "all" sinners. God is no respecter of persons. Whether one is a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a womanizer, a drunk, a drug user, or what have you it is the "goodness of God" that leads any one to repentance. We can't even claim our own faith as being ours - that too is a gift from God because "all" men have been given a measure of faith to believe in God (Romans 12:3). Your "exclusiveness" doctrine is not of the Bible and is, quite frankly, inspired by Satan.

Christ died for anyone that would seek Him and be drawn to Him.

You sound like a perfect candidate for the four questions!

 

[glorydaz]

What God hates is sin.

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

God is light...sin is darkness which is why God had to make a way for sin to be done away with.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

All men are "workers of iniquity" before their sins are covered by the grace of God.
God is love so provides a way to bring man out of the darkness into the light.

29The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[mondar]

God indeed loves all men because He gave His son to all that would believe on Him should not perish but have eternal life. "Whosoever" includes "all" sinners.

The term "whosoever" (??? ? ????????) in John 3:16 cannot be interpreted as anyone in all history in all times. If one looks into the greek term behind the "whosoever" one will see it is the word "pas, pasa, pan." This word is normally translated all or every. When it precedes a participle it can be translated "whoever." However, it modifies the participle that preceeds it. In John 3:16 it speaks of all the believing ones. It does not speak of this hypothetical group of possible people. The term "whosoever" is definite and speaks of only the believers.

God is no respecter of persons. Whether one is a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a womanizer, a drunk, a drug user, or what have you it is the "goodness of God" that leads any one to repentance. We can't even claim our own faith as being ours - that too is a gift from God because "all" men have been given a measure of faith to believe in God (Romans 12:3).

Agreed.

Your "exclusiveness" doctrine is not of the Bible and is, quite frankly, inspired by Satan.

I know this is not directed at me, but I do want to point out that it is an ad-hominid.

Christ died for anyone that would seek Him and be drawn to Him.

The crosswork of Christ is is for all who are drawn. Of all the ones drawn, Christ will not loose any.
Joh 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

 

[RND]

The term "whosoever" (??? ? ????????) in John 3:16 cannot be interpreted as anyone in all history in all times.

Sure it can. You mean to say Christ didn't die for everyone? That God really is a respecter of persons?

If one looks into the greek term behind the "whosoever" one will see it is the word "pas, pasa, pan." This word is normally translated all or every. When it precedes a participle it can be translated "whoever." However, it modifies the participle that preceeds it. In John 3:16 it speaks of all the believing ones. It does not speak of this hypothetical group of possible people. The term "whosoever" is definite and speaks of only the believers.

All means all right? Verse 16 makes no clarification or distinction. Verses 17 and 18 do.

The blood Christ shed on Calvary is available for anyone who is willing to accept it. Any other position taken is not of the Bible and is false doctrine and quite frankly Satanic in origin and I think the mods here should seriously consider censuring you.

God is no respecter of persons. Whether one is a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a womanizer, a drunk, a drug user, or what have you it is the "goodness of God" that leads any one to repentance. We can't even claim our own faith as being ours - that too is a gift from God because "all" men have been given a measure of faith to believe in God (Romans 12:3).

Agreed.

Then that means "whosoever."

Your "exclusiveness" doctrine is not of the Bible and is, quite frankly, inspired by Satan.

I know this is not directed at me, but I do want to point out that it is an ad-hominid.

No it's not an "ad-hominem" attack in anyway. Anyone that purports to assume that God has not offered salvation to all who would accept the blood of Christ is indeed teaching doctrine that can only come straight from Satan.

The bottom line is that the blood Christ shed on Calvary is available for every sinner on the face of the earth which includes you and me.

Christ died for anyone that would seek Him and be drawn to Him.

The crosswork of Christ is is for all who are drawn. Of all the ones drawn, Christ will not loose any.
Joh 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Yeah "all" who are drawn. Admittedly there are some that have absolutely no desire to "look and see" the finished work of Christ on the cross. That's is not to say, nor should it be ever said, that Christ didn't die for those that would have no desire to look into these things. He respects their right and choice to look away from Him.

I think anyone that preaches any type of exclusivity on this forum should be banned quite frankly. It is completely and wholly unscriptural and from the Devil himself.

Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.