If God Loved everyone !

[Benoni]

Romans 10:16-18 wrote: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Where does it say " Every man" is given a measure of faith, and grace is given as we hear the Word and repent of our sins." ? Yes this is being fulfilled now, but is not fulfilled. Not all hear even thought many have the words spoken to them, how many billions have not heard, this will happen in God’s timing not yours.

God is not calling all people now.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

 

[Benoni]

.
I am very suspicious of the word “whosoever†when it comes to man inserting words in God's Word.

John 3:16

The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.


Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.

(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.


Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might†was added by the translator

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[Benoni]

The devil is going to Tartarus and is not a "son of Adam", so how can he be a son of Jesus?

.

glorydaz, I agree with you

I do NOT agree with Universalist who think even the devil himself will be saved. :crazy


.

Men cannot believe in there carnal state until God’s spirit quickens them.

Correct!

Read my sig....

 

[mutzrein]

Glorydaz - I'll put this question again that I posed a couple days ago.

If God so loved the world . . . and desired all men to be saved, why did Jesus specifically say that he was NOT praying for the world?

 

[Benoni]

The free gift of grace is given to ALL MEN.

Rom. 5:18 wrote:
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Oops...here that pesky "every man" again.
I'm not sure how you can ignore so much of the Bible to come up with this odd theory of yours.

Nothing pesky about it is true. This is true, but where we differ is God is not calling all men now.

God is not calling all people now.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

 

[Benoni]

You can be sarcastic all you want, I again turn to God’s Word not my opinion. Notice the context.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Men cannot believe in there carnal state until God’s spirit quickens them.

Correct!

Darn straight...no sense preaching that pesky old Gospel then, is there?

It does make one wonder why we're called to believe.

Even the Lord sounds perplexed. He should have checked with you all and then He'd know.

He was thinking He just had to show them a few signs and that might do the trick.
He must be just a little embarrassed.

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

 

[Benoni]

Your signature is not taking in concideration of the context of Eph. 2.

.

glorydaz, I agree with you

I do NOT agree with Universalist who think even the devil himself will be saved. :crazy


.

Men cannot believe in there carnal state until God’s spirit quickens them.

Correct!

Read my sig....

 

[Orion]

savedbygrace, . . . . a VERY important question for you, . . . .. . . please answer. Thank you.....

glory:

The very purpose of spreading the Gospel message is to call the unsaved.

No its not, its to call the saved..the unsaved have no Saviour, and no hope, the design of the gospel for them is death unto death..

Do you believe that there are people who believe themselves to "be saved", when [according to your beliefs] they are not? If so, why?

 

[Benoni]

In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek abiding place.

All people have a different abiding place then me. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now. If God has not called you in another abiding place/spiritual room/spiritual plane/deeper understanding then that is all you can understand. Many are shallow, superficial, and religious or where ever God has placed them; you cannot change that; only God’s spirit has that power to draw all men to Himself.

 

[savedbygrace57]

savedbygrace, . . . . a VERY important question for you, . . . .. . . please answer. Thank you.....

glory:

The very purpose of spreading the Gospel message is to call the unsaved.

No its not, its to call the saved..the unsaved have no Saviour, and no hope, the design of the gospel for them is death unto death..

Do you believe that there are people who believe themselves to "be saved", when [according to your beliefs] they are not? If so, why?

Yes, there are people who believe themselves to be saved, and I don't see it of them, because they don't believe the Truth that I preach.. If they were of God, if they were of God, they would know what I preach is of God..

 

[Rick W]

and again:

Ok fellas. I see no point in this anyway.
I'm trying to think of someone who said they weren't quite sure about the truth when posting in this particular forum but nobody comes to mind at the moment.

 

[Benoni]

And who are you? What gives you any authority to make such a claim?

Yes, there are people who believe themselves to be saved, and I don't see it of them, because they don't believe the Truth that I preach.. If they were of God, if they were of God, they would know what I preach is of God..

 

[Benoni]

What you all are missing is salvation is not by man's choice or will. Salvation comes from God by the blood of Jesus. So yes men can be in error, backslide. But it is Jesus who saves, in his divine timing not man and his man made religious timing.

 

[Orion]

them is death unto death..

Do you believe that there are people who believe themselves to "be saved", when [according to your beliefs] they are not? If so, why?

Yes, there are people who believe themselves to be saved, and I don't see it of them, because they don't believe the Truth that I preach.. If they were of God, if they were of God, they would know what I preach is of God..

What is your opinion of these [and I underlined them in your post] who differ from your opinion/doctrine, . . . yet they firmly believe that they ARE saved, . . . love god, and believe they have received their doctrine via the holy spirit, thus feel that they have interpreted the bible correctly?

 

[glorydaz]

Now that's a pretty odd way of thinking. We were all spiritually dead before we were saved.
Where has this spritual elitism come from?????????????
You seem to be denying the power of the Gospel....actually, you are flat-out denying the power of the Gospel. I have to admit, I've never heard such a notion.
We're called to believe and repent....why bother to call men to believe and repent?

When Adam died he did not die physically. What do you think naked means spiritually speaking? God’s Word is a spiritual Word, the letter killeth.

It is not spiritual elitism it is scripture. No way am I deny the power of the Gospel, sure I deny man’s gospel, men have no power to save. All ultimately will be saved for the blood of Jesus is far greater then the sin of Adam.

If we are not quickened we cannot believe. It is not your place to call men. It is God. Sure God uses people, but you have no power.

What so odd about it. Salvation is by God’s grace not by human will. Really look at the world around us, how many are being called. How many people in a city like Buffalo NY know Jesus? How many factory workers are Catholic, how many Pimps, prostitutes or you name come to God by their own freewill. Take it a bit further, go to Kuwait, or Afghanistan; how many have a freewill or even understanding on who Jesus is?

We don't preach man's gospel. We preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is the power unto salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Faith, believing and the hearing of the Word of God are entwined.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Therefore, the pimps and prostitutes can hear the Word, which is empowered by God to save all sinners...such as we were before we believed.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz - I'll put this question again that I posed a couple days ago.

If God so loved the world . . . and desired all men to be saved, why did Jesus specifically say that he was NOT praying for the world?

Jesus is speaking of his role as high priest. It's a two-fold prayer. First for the Apostles and then for those to whom the message will be preached.

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

He is consecrating the Apostles...praying they are kept from the evil one and go forth in power...keeping the truth He has given them. This is the high priest's prayer for those sons of Aaron.
[quote:1395lvcl]9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Then, He goes on to pray for those who will hear the Gospel message.
[quote:1395lvcl]20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[/quote:1395lvcl][/quote:1395lvcl]

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory:

and then for those to whom the message will be preached.

Not just to whom the message is preached, but to them that shall believe !

Jn 17:

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[Orion]

them is death unto death..

Do you believe that there are people who believe themselves to "be saved", when [according to your beliefs] they are not? If so, why?

Yes, there are people who believe themselves to be saved, and I don't see it of them, because they don't believe the Truth that I preach.. If they were of God, if they were of God, they would know what I preach is of God..

What is your opinion of these [and I underlined them in your post] who differ from your opinion/doctrine, . . . yet they firmly believe that they ARE saved, . . . love god, and believe they have received their doctrine via the holy spirit, thus feel that they have interpreted the bible correctly?

Just in case you overlooked this post, savedbygrace......

 

[savedbygrace57]

orion:

Just in case you overlooked this post, savedbygrace......

I already gave you my opinion..

 

[Orion]

orion:

Just in case you overlooked this post, savedbygrace......

I already gave you my opinion..

Okay. So, even though they firmly believe that they have received their doctrine via the holy spirit, you see them as incorrect, and in fact, quite lost, and most likely, not "one of the elect". If that isn't your point, please correct me. If it is as you see, then answer THIS question.

IF someone agreed with your assessment of scripture [all of them], is it possible that they could still NOT be "one of the elect"? In other words, they have the head knowledge, and maybe even the conviction, but are not "an elect"?