If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[Jethro Bodine]

if a believer ceases to believe...they are then "not good enough" for heaven.

That's how I see their view. If that is wrong, I hope one of them will clarify how I am wrong.

Where in the Bible does it explain that having faith is somehow a work that can not justify?

See, you once insisted your doctrine did not move faith over to the side of works in Paul's discourse about faith and works. But we see clearly here that you do indeed believe that to think that the work of faith (tongue in cheek, as you correctly say) is a requirement for salvation then you are guilty of trying to be justified/saved by works. But that is not the argument at all.

So here is your clarification of how you are wrong about the argument being leveled against your doctrine: Having faith is not among the works that Paul says can not justify. But you are the one saying that it is when you resist the argument that faith is a requirement and a condition for being saved on the day of Wrath because that would be works trying to make us 'good enough' for heaven.

In fact, no person will EVER be good enough for heaven. That is the whole point of the Law and what the Bible teaches. Which is why Jesus Christ came to earth, lived a perfect life, and paid the price for ALL sins. So that IN SPITE of ourselves, God will save those who believe in Christ.

And there isn't a single person here who would disagree with this. But, what we are in disagreement about is, this only applies to people who have faith, not people who abandon their faith before the day of Judgment. Your argument being, that to make faith a condition for being saved on the Day of Wrath is to make works the way a person is justified, as if faith is among the works that Paul said can not justify. See, you are the one who is making faith a work that can not justify, not us.

"4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:6 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see this as conflicting. If you are saved by Christ alone for salvation, then having to continue to do anything not only isn't necessary, but contrary to your statement.

See? You're making faith a work that can not justify.
You're afraid to make faith a requirement for being saved on the day of wrath because you somehow think that's equivalent to trying to be saved by works--as if faith and works are the same thing in Paul's discourse about what can justify, and what can not justify.

"4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:6 NASB)

See? You have faith and works being the exact same effort to justify oneself. But as we can see that is hardly what Paul taught.

 

[smaller]

And there isn't a single person here who would disagree with this. But, what we are in disagreement about is, this only applies to people who have faith, not people who abandon their faith before the day of Judgment.

God in Christ, once called upon, can not be abandoned. He Is True to His Own Word. Man never is true in the same sense. Man's words always fail because they are not eternal words.

We handle Word of Life. It is He that calls, He that justifies.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These are conveyances of Him to those who he called. None of His Eternal things was of and from the person nor were the Eternal things of HIM ever in the hands of the person to obtain, to retain it OR lose to begin with.

It is the work of God in Christ. It is Gods Own Faith, working to His Intentions.

Your argument being, that to make faith a condition for being saved on the Day of Wrath is to make works the way a person is justified, as if faith is among the works that Paul said can not justify. See, you are the one who is making faith a work that can not justify, not us.

The One who starts the work, Himself completes it.

Phil. 1:
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

No man can make any sort of sufficient performance for any of these matters. Never have, never will.

The called are predestined by Him to be in Him. They are IN HIM the instant they are LED by Him to CALL upon Him. The Work He starts He Completes.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where in the Bible does it explain that having faith is somehow a work that can not justify?

I don't agree with this idea, so I can't answer the question.

See, you once insisted your doctrine did not move faith over to the side of works in Paul's discourse about faith and works.

I have no idea what you think I "insisted". My doctrine is biblical and moves nothing. I do know that Paul taught that faith was non meritorious.

But we see clearly here that you do indeed believe that to think that the work of faith (tongue in cheek, as you correctly say) is a requirement for salvation then you are guilty of trying to be justified/saved by works. But that is not the argument at all.

Being a requirement doesn't mean it's a work. It's something done. But not meritorious.

So here is your clarification of how you are wrong about the argument being leveled against your doctrine: Having faith is not among the works that Paul says can not justify.

I'm not worried, concerned, or interested in what "can not justify". Who would care about that anyway? I'm concerned and interested in what CAN justify. And we know that Paul taught very clearly that we are justified by faith. Rom 5:1

But you are the one saying that it is when you resist the argument that faith is a requirement and a condition for being saved on the day of Wrath because that would be works trying to make us 'good enough' for heaven.

Clearly, you have misunderstood what I did say.

And there isn't a single person here who would disagree with this. But, what we are in disagreement about is, this only applies to people who have faith, not people who abandon their faith before the day of Judgment. Your argument being, that to make faith a condition for being saved on the Day of Wrath is to make works the way a person is justified, as if faith is among the works that Paul said can not justify. See, you are the one who is making faith a work that can not justify, not us.

"4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:6 NASB)

Just as soon as you or someone else finds any verse that teaches that those who have lost their faith, or ceased to believe have lost their salvation, I will believe you. But not until then.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I see this as conflicting. If you are saved by Christ alone for salvation, then having to continue to do anything not only isn't necessary, but contrary to your statement."

See? You're making faith a work that can not justify.

See? You continue to misunderstand what I am saying.

You're afraid to make faith a requirement for being saved on the day of wrath because you somehow think that's equivalent to trying to be saved by works--as if faith and works are the same thing in Paul's discourse about what can justify, and what can not justify.

None of this makes any sense and isn't even close to what I believe and have posted. I'm sorry that you have been so unable to understand my posts. But I've tried to be as clear as possible. But your claim about what I believe is totally wrong.

"4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:6 NASB)

See? You have faith and works being the exact same effort to justify oneself.

]
See? I DON'T, and I have NO IDEA why you keep thinking so. Paul was clear about DISTINGUISHING between faith and works.

Faith saves, works don't save. Got it?

But as we can see that is hardly what Paul taught.

And it's hardly what I have been saying. Again, sorry that I'm not very clear to you.

 

[WIP]

Okay everyone. Let’s cool down. Are we not all Christians? Let’s try to act like Christians! Peter instructs us to defend the hope that is in us with gentleness and respect or meekness and fear. I’m not seeing too much meekness in this thread.

There are too many snarky little quips being tossed around in this discussion. Maybe you’re frustrated because you’re not getting the response you expect. Maybe you’re angry because you feel backed into a corner. Whatever the reason, the attitudes need to be checked at the door. There should be absolutely no reason this topic can’t be discussed without the fisticuffs. Unless the tone of this thread starts to cool down, this thread will be closed.

I personally want to see it remain open for my own sake and for others that may be reading as there is a lot of good discussion as well.

 

[FreeGrace]

THis is for Ozpen, but in case he has checked out as threatened, it's for anyone else who has been following this discussion regarding his point of the 'present tense' in John 5:24 as proof that one MUST continue in believing in order to continue to HAVE eternal life.

That is easily refuted by the words of Jesus in His parable of the soils.

Regarding soil #1, He explained that the devil steals away the word from their hearts, "lest they believe (aorist) and be saved (aorist)". Luke 8:12

Then, in the next verse, regarding soil #2, He said they "believe (present) for a while".

If one needed to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, why would Jesus use the aorist in v.12? And why would He use the present tense in v.13 and then add the seemingly contradictory phrase "for a while"?

What is clear is that Jesus never considered the present tense to mean continuing throughout one's life, as Ozpen seems to claim.

But it is also supported by Paul's answer to the jailer, who asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

"Believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be (future) saved." Acts 16:31

Paul used the aorist to show a point in time action of believing. And he then showed that from that point in time forward, the believer would be saved. iow, the salvation is AFTER the believing, or future to it.

Paul used the aorist tense in Rom 10:9 regarding believing and being saved as well.

So Oz has no support for his claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

When one believes in a point in time, they ARE saved (Jn 3:16, Acts 16:31), they HAVE eternal life (Jn 6:40) and eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Jesus said the same thing in John 10:28 - "and I give them (His sheep - those who entered the sheep gate through Him - John 10:9; a figure of speech for believing in Him) eternal life, and they WILL NEVER PERISH.

In FACT, Jesus was clear about what He meant in John 10:9 as well:
“I am the door; if anyone enters (aorist) through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

Jesus makes clear that a sheep can "go in and out and find pasture", AFTER "enters through Me". And he will be saved. And Jesus used the aorist tense for "enters". Not present tense.

Finally, Jesus taught that one who drinks (aorist tense) will NEVER THIRST in John 4:14. What can that possibly mean except that from ONE drink one's thirst is forever over.

"but whoever drinks (aorist) of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” 4:14

So, from a point in time drink, one will NEVER THIRST (NEVER PERISH).

And from that ONE drink, eternal life.

Those who believe in a point in time have eternal life and will never perish. That is eternal security.

 

[WIP]

"Believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be (future) saved." Acts 16:31

Paul used the aorist to show a point in time action of believing. And he then showed that from that point in time forward, the believer would be saved. iow, the salvation is AFTER the believing, or future to it.

I can't join the debate but a thought did cross my mind with this statement. You're saying that this Scripute indicates the saving would happen immediately upon his believing. I'm not so sure about that. I agree that the words "will be saved" point to the future but where does the time stamp come into play? Is the future immediately after believing or at the judgement? Both would be in the future and so both are satisfied by the words "will be saved."

 

[FreeGrace]

I can't join the debate but a thought did cross my mind with this statement. You're saying that this Scripute indicates the saving would happen immediately upon his believing. I'm not so sure about that. I agree that the words "will be saved" point to the future but where does the time stamp come into play? Is the future immediately after believing or at the judgement? Both would be in the future and so both are satisfied by the words "will be saved."

Good question. What is clear, as you noted, is that being saved would be future to the believing.

So, in order to understand any verse, we always need to compare Scripture with Scripture. And John 5:24 tells us that those who ARE believing (present tense) HAVE eternal life.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes (present) Him who sent Me, HAS (present tense) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

I believe this verse teaches that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. I cannot see how they would only get eternal life in the future as the judgment.

So I believe that considering both Acts 16:31 with John 5:24, eternal life is given WHEN one believes, and at that moment, they are saved. The saving follows (is future to) believing.

If eternal life was given at the judgment, then John 5:24 doesn't make sense and cannot be true. No one would have eternal life during this life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

where does the time stamp come into play?

For now we have a pledge, a promise, in the form of the Holy Spirit, of what is to come:

"21Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

Pledge of what? The inheritance to come:

"13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession" (Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

The Holy Spirit is a down payment, or ernest of sorts of what is to come. We have eternal life now, yet we will receive it in full on the day of redemption. And the condition for receiving it in full on the day of salvation/redemption/wrath/Judgment is that you have the same faith then as you started out with when you first heard and received the gospel:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

But some strains of OSAS insist there are zero conditions attached to receiving the fullness of the promised inheritance. But as we can easily see, no matter how you define 'hold fast the word' it is a condition for being saved on the day of salvation.

We're probably all familiar with this song:

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine
O' what a foretaste of glory divine...
​

The foretaste we have now...the Jesus we have now...is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is how we know that we have believed so as to receive the promise of eternal life. You have to arrive at the Judgement with the promissory note of the Holy Spirit (given through believing) in order to lay claim to what the ernest of the Holy Spirit ensures. Some insist that because the Holy Spirit is a gift it is impossible by virtue of it being a gift to take it back. Two thing wrong with that: 1) who ever heard of not being able to literally take back a gift?, and 2) Paul makes it clear that the free gift does indeed have a very, very important condition attached to it--a continuing faith through the gospel message.

The clear words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 are undeniable. Even if one wants to creatively redefine 'hold fast the word', it's still a condition for being saved on the Day of Wrath, completely contrary to the argument that there are zero conditions for being saved in the end once you believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If eternal life was given at the judgment, then John 5:24 doesn't make sense and cannot be true. No one would have eternal life during this life.

"7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day..." (2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB bold mine)

"5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness (the fullness of the Holy Spirit)." (Galatians 5:5 NASB bold and underline mine, parenthesis mine)

"24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8: NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

"...the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. " (Romans 2:5-8 NIV bold and underline mine)

These passages clearly defy your doctrines insistence on there only being eternal life given now, and that we don't have to wait with a persevering faith for it.

John 5:24 makes perfect sense when we understand that we have eternal life now in the form of the down payment of the Holy Spirit, and will have what that down payment promises in it's fullness on the Day of Judgement/Redemption.

 

[FreeGrace]

For now we have a pledge, a promise, in the form of the Holy Spirit, of what is to come:

"21Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

Pledge of what? The inheritance to come:

"13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession" (Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

The Holy Spirit is a down payment, or ernest of sorts of what is to come. We have eternal life now, yet we will receive it in full on the day of redemption. And the condition for receiving it in full on the day of salvation/redemption/wrath/Judgment is that you have the same faith then as you started out with when you first heard and received the gospel:

Actually, not. There are no conditions in Eph 1:13, 14, or 4:30, or 2 Cor 1:22 or 5:5 that add any condition other than having believed.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold and underline mine)

But some strains of OSAS insist there are zero conditions attached to receiving the fullness of the promised inheritance.[/QUOTE]
My view has been clear: the only condition for being saved is having believed and having received eternal life.

But as we can easily see, no matter how you define 'hold fast the word' it is a condition for being saved on the day of salvation.

It is easy to consult any Greek lexicon and learn that the single word means to "possess". And anyone who has received the free gift of eternal life, via faith in Christ per John 6:40, HAS eternal life and that gift is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

​

The clear words of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 are undeniable. Even if one wants to creatively redefine 'hold fast the word', it's still a condition for being saved on the Day of Wrath, completely contrary to the argument that there are zero conditions for being saved in the end once you believe.

How is the correct definition from a Greek lexicon being "creative"? How about some intellectual honesty here?

The sole condition for the day of wrath is whether or not a person HAS eternal life. And if one has ever been given this gift, they possess the gift, because it is irrevocable and God doesn't take back the gifts of His that are irrevocable.

We know who gets thrown into the lake of fire on the day of wrath (Great White Throne):
Rev 20:15 - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Real clear here. Those who HAVE eternal life have their names in the book of life. Those who don't have the free gift of eternal life do NOT have their names in the book of life. And they get thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"f eternal life was given at the judgment, then John 5:24 doesn't make sense and cannot be true. No one would have eternal life during this life."

"7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day..." (2 Timothy 4:7-8 NASB bold mine)

"5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness (the fullness of the Holy Spirit)." (Galatians 5:5 NASB bold and underline mine, parenthesis mine)

"24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8: NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)

"...the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. " (Romans 2:5-8 NIV bold and underline mine)

These passages clearly defy your doctrines insistence on there only being eternal life given now, and that we don't have to wait with a persevering faith for it.

How can you say that, given what Jesus said in John 5:24?

John 5:24 makes perfect sense when we understand that we have eternal life now in the form of the down payment of the Holy Spirit, and will have what that down payment promises in it's fullness on the Day of Judgement/Redemption.

No, we don't have a "down payment" of eternal life now. We have the Holy Spirit, who IS the down payment, the pledge or promise for the day of redemption.

Let's review Eph 1:13,14 again:
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

I believe you have erred in your reading of these verses. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who is the promise and pledge, or "down payment". Not eternal life itself. In fact, the words "eternal life" don't occur in this passage.

v.14 teaches that God gives the Holy Spirit as a pledge, with a view to the redmeption of God's own possession, which refers to those who have believed and have been given the right to be children of God, per Jn 1:12 and Gal 3:26.

Can you cite or quote any verse that teaches that God has or will remove the right to be His children for any reason?

I haven't found any such verse.

 

[OzSpen]

Yet, there is no place in Scripture that tells us that one must continue in the faith in order to continue to be saved or have eternal life.

There most definitely are such Scriptures but you don't want to listen to what they say. John 5:24 (ESV), based on the Greek tenses means, '... Whoever hears my word and continues to believe him who sent me continues to have eternal life'. That meaning is based on solid Greek grammar [edited out personal remark].

1 Corinthians 15:2 (ESV) is clear, 'By which you are being saved if you continue to hold fast to the word'. 'Continue to hold fast' is the Greek present tense for 'hold fast' and that's the correct meaning from the Greek.

1 John 5:13 (ESV) states, 'I write these things to you who believe [present tense] in the name of the Son of God that you may know [perfect tense] that you have [present tense] eternal life'.

The present tense affirms continuous believing. The perfect tense affirms continuing results. Therefore, the meaning of 1 John 5:13 is that those who continue to believe in the name of Jesus, the Son, will result in continuing to have eternal life.

Etc, etc.

There are many verses in Scripture that confirm that Christians must continue to have faith in Jesus to continue to have eternal life. [edited out personal remark]

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

THis is for Ozpen, but in case he has checked out as threatened, it's for anyone else who has been following this discussion regarding his point of the 'present tense' in John 5:24 as proof that one MUST continue in believing in order to continue to HAVE eternal life....

What is clear is that Jesus never considered the present tense to mean continuing throughout one's life, as Ozpen seems to claim.

Which language did Jesus speak, FreeGrace? In which language is the NT written? Koine Greek! What does John 5:25 state? The Greek present tenses indicate that a person must continue to believe to continue to have eternal life. That's what the Greek means. To argue otherwise is to confute Greek grammar.

My case for continuing to believe is established and the ingressive aorist tenses for 'believe' affirm that this is a view seen from the perspective of origin of belief. [edited out personal remark]

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Yet, there is no place in Scripture that tells us that one must continue in the faith in order to continue to be saved or have eternal life."

There most definitely are such Scriptures but you don't want to listen to what they say.

You know me better than that, Oz. This kind of comment only demonstrates that there aren't any verses. Or you'd jut quote them to me, as I routinely and repeatedly quote the verses about eternal security to you and your crowd.

John 5:24 (ESV), based on the Greek tenses means, '... Whoever hears my word and continues to believe him who sent me continues to have eternal life'. That meaning is based on solid Greek grammar [edited out personal remark].

There is nothing in the present tense in the Greek to mean "continuously" forever until the end of your life. Jesus proved that in Luke 8:13 by using the present tense form for 'believe' and then added "for a while".

You are reading much more into the present tense than is called for when you read Jn 5:24. And how does your view fit with Acts 16:31 where Paul told the jailer to believe, and used the aorist tense? If one must continue to believe, why did Paul use the aorist tense?

Or, when Jesus said that those who drink (aorist) WILL NEVER THIRST?

You have not explained these verses.

1 Corinthians 15:2 (ESV) is clear, 'By which you are being saved if you continue to hold fast to the word'. 'Continue to hold fast' is the Greek present tense for 'hold fast' and that's the correct meaning from the Greek.

1 John 5:13 (ESV) states, 'I write these things to you who believe [present tense] in the name of the Son of God that you may know [perfect tense] that you have [present tense] eternal life'.

It is very obvious to me that the thrust of Scripture is to encourage all believers to continue to believe. However, again, there are no verses that warn of loss of salvation is one ceases to believe.

The present tense affirms continuous believing. The perfect tense affirms continuing results. Therefore, the meaning of 1 John 5:13 is that those who continue to believe in the name of Jesus, the Son, will result in continuing to have eternal life.

This is what I know:
Eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23.
God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.

Therefore, once given, eternal life cannot be lost, removed, taken back, etc.

There are many verses in Scripture that confirm that Christians must continue to have faith in Jesus to continue to have eternal life. [edited out personal remark]
Oz

Nope. Not a one. Eternal life is an irrevocable gift. Paul said so.

There are 2 verses in Acts in which apostles encouraged congregations to "continue in the faith". Yet neither verse included any warning of consequences of not doing so.

Acts 11:23 - Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord;

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying,“Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Yet, there is no place in Scripture that tells us that one must continue in the faith in order to continue to be saved or have eternal life."

You know me better than that, Oz. This kind of comment only demonstrates that there aren't any verses. Or you'd jut quote them to me, as I routinely and repeatedly quote the verses about eternal security to you and your crowd.


There is nothing in the present tense in the Greek to mean "continuously" forever until the end of your life. Jesus proved that in Luke 8:13 by using the present tense form for 'believe' and then added "for a while".

You are reading much more into the present tense than is called for when you read Jn 5:24. And how does your view fit with Acts 16:31 where Paul told the jailer to believe, and used the aorist tense? If one must continue to believe, why did Paul use the aorist tense?

Or, when Jesus said that those who drink (aorist) WILL NEVER THIRST?

You have not explained these verses.


It is very obvious to me that the thrust of Scripture is to encourage all believers to continue to believe. However, again, there are no verses that warn of loss of salvation is one ceases to believe.


This is what I know:
Eternal life is a gift of God, from Rom 6:23.
God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29.

Therefore, once given, eternal life cannot be lost, removed, taken back, etc.


Nope. Not a one. Eternal life is an irrevocable gift. Paul said so.

There are 2 verses in Acts in which apostles encouraged congregations to "continue in the faith". Yet neither verse included any warning of consequences of not doing so.

Acts 11:23 - Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord;

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying,“Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

Still waiting for you to post the scriptures that teach us "un-believers", those who once believed, then no longer believe, have eternal life.


Until you can, then OSAS is an unbiblical doctrine that is man-conceived.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Which language did Jesus speak, FreeGrace? In which language is the NT written? Koine Greek! What does John 5:25 state? The Greek present tenses indicate that a person must continue to believe to continue to have eternal life. That's what the Greek means. To argue otherwise is to confute Greek grammar.

If that is true, then Paul must have either lied to the jailer or he was sloppy in his answer. As well, why did Jesus say that those who "drink (aorist) will never thirst"?

My case for continuing to believe is established and the ingressive aorist tenses for 'believe' affirm that this is a view seen from the perspective of origin of belief. [edited out personal remark]
Oz

#1 your case is not established based on present tense.
#2 your case for the ingressive aorist fails from what Wallace actually said about it. I will repeat what he said:
"Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues."

He was contrasting the ingressive aorist with the ingressive imperfect. So, again, with the aorist, THERE IS NO IMPLICATION THAT THE ACTION CONTINUES.

That statement refutes your claim about having to continue to believe in order to contine to have eternal life.

And, not to mention, there are NO verses that say that eternal life can be taken away. Just the opposite, in fact. That eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

 

[JLB]

And, not to mention, there are NO verses that say that eternal life can be taken away. Just the opposite, in fact. That eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Do the sons of God [angels] that have eternal life and are cast down to hell, die there, or do they continue to exist there?

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Still waiting for you to post the scriptures that teach us "un-believers", those who once believed, then no longer believe, have eternal life.
Until you can, then OSAS is an unbiblical doctrine that is man-conceived.JLB

Why do you think there would be such a silly verse? Because Scripture NEVER describes one who has believed, but then ceases to believe, an unbeliever. That occurs only in your mind, but not the Bible.

So you can cease from asking this irrelevant and silly question.

I have shown that God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29. And that eternal life is one of God's gifts, from Rom 6:23. Connecting those dots just isn't that difficult. You won't connect them because you are convinced that one can lose eternal life, but that is in spite of what the Scripture very clearly states.

One who has believed has the irrevocable gift of eternal life. So even if such a one ceases to believe, he still possesses the irrevocable gift of eternal life.

You've failed to prove otherwise from Scripture.