How can anyone know God if they refuse to believe any longer.
Knowing God is eternal life.
Know God = Eternal life.
No God = No eternal life.
JLB
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If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?
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How can anyone know God if they refuse to believe any longer.
Knowing God is eternal life.
Know God = Eternal life.
No God = No eternal life.
JLB
That's easy. The saints are those who persevere (John 3:36 ESV; John 5:24 ESV). Some believers begin but then they shipwreck their faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV) or commit apostasy (Heb 6:4-6 ESV) . They are not the ones who persevere.
To persevere doesn't refer to having salvation or persevere in being saved. To persevere means to keep believing.
Where does the Bible teach that those who cease to believe cease to have eternal life?
Of course 'to persevere means to keep believing' and that's what is taught in John 3:36 (ESV) and John 5:24 (ESV).
Those who cease to believe are those who fall away from the faith, i.e. commit apostasy. This is taught in verses such as,
- 2 Thess 2:3 (ESV);
- 1 Tim 1:18-19 (ESV);
- 1 Tim 4:1 (ESV);
- 2 Tim 3:1-9 (ESV);
- Heb 3:12 (ESV);
- Heb 6:4-8 (ESV);
- 2 Peter 2:20-22 (ESV).
I'll discuss this no further with you as, no matter what biblical evidence I provide to affirm perseverance of the saints and the possibility of apostasy, you reject it.
Therefore I conclude:
Oz
It's a perfect question based on all that you've written.
See your doctrine allows for Christians to practice a sinful lifestyle just as those in the world live, and still think that they are saved.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4
JLB
What has not been shown from Scripture is that those who have fallen away from the faith lose eternal life.
How can that even be, since we know that God's gifts are irrevocable from Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
And Paul had already described some of God's gifts in that same epistle.
1:11 spiritual gifts We know they are from God from from 1 Cor 12:11 - But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
3:24 and 5:15,16,17 justification We know justification is from God from Rom 3:30 - since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
6:23 - eternal life, specifically stated as a gift of God - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
When we consider other epistles, we learn that the indwelling Holy Spirit is a gift from God as well. Acts 10:45 - All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
We learn from Eph 2:8 that salvation itself is a gift - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
If true believers all do persevere in the faith, the idea of apostasy cannot be true.
But since we know that the Bible tells us that some believers believe for the while, and commit apostasy, we know that the idea that all believers do NOT persevere in the faith.
Perseverance in the faith is an erroneous Calvinist doctrine. They get around the fact of apostasy by claiming that those who don't persevere didn't "really believe". If that were true, then the meaning of apostasy is meaningless.
I can understand why one would feel like banging their head against a wall. Especially when one cannot refute the claims of another.Therefore I conclude:
Oz
I suggest taking a lot of aspirin if such behavior is tempting. Or, just go through this post and refute anything I've posted that can be refuted from Scripture.
That doesn't mean quoting some other Scripture. It means taking the Scriptures I've quoted and through proper exegesis, prove that they don't mean or say what I claim they both say and mean.
If that isn't possible, then just go for the aspirin.
That would mean that you haven't understood much of what I've written, then.
Why do you conditional security guys keep thinking that sin is even an issue for those who have put their faith in Christ? He died for ALL sin. But it seems that you don't believe that. So, where would one read in Scripture that Christ didn't die for ALL sin?
Do you really believe that the truth is in all believers? Sheesh. Just read a few posts from a few threads, and see the VAST difference in what believers believe. They can't all have the truth.
How many times did Paul write this: "I would not have you ignorant, brothers…"? Just 4 times.
Those who are ignorant do NOT have the truth. Which is why Paul wrote the epistles that he did. He wanted believers to have the truth.
And one truth is that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).
Another truth is that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23).
Not every believer actually believes this.
iow, the truth is not in them.
No scripture! You state your opinion in the face of scripture.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
1 John 2:3-5
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
Can a Christian become a murderer and never repent and still be saved?
Just like Christians who practice lying, or sexual immorality, or idolatry.... Those who practice these things will have their part in the lake of fire. They will not inherit the kingdom of God.
JLB
Why don't you believe that Christ died for ALL sin??
This is what Scripture says:
John 1:29 - The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Rom 6:10 - For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Heb 7:27 - who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Heb 9:12 - and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
1 Pet 3:18 - For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit
You see, when I make statements, I can support them from Scripture.
If he ever received eternal life through faith in the Savior, he has an irrevocable gift, according to Rom 11:29 and 6:23.
You've conflated 2 separate things. The ones who have their part in the lake of fire do so because they NEVER received the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23, Jn 6:40) and didn't have their names in the book of life (Rev 20;15).
Those who do not inherit the kingdom is an issue of reward, or in their case, loss of reward because of lifestyle.
But we've already been though all this. So you at least do have a reasonable and very rational and biblical explanation for why it refers to the issue of reward.
Those who think "not inheriting" refers to loss of salvation is just an assumption that has not been shown to be factual from Scripture.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8
These words of Jesus Christ, as recorded by John, was a message to the Church.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Revelation 1:1-4
Same exact warning Paul gave the Church at Galatia.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
and Corinth
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
and the Ephesians
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:3-5
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone...
When compared to Revelation and the warning from Jesus Christ to the Church, it's clear that those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, and those who have their part in the lake of fire are one and the same thing.
If a person does not inherit the kingdom of God, then what other kingdom is there for them to inherit?
The only other one! The Kingdom of Darkness, along with the devil and his angels.
Jesus Christ Himself defined what it means to inherit the kingdom of God.
You have tried to "redefine" and "repackage" biblical words to align with your postmodern "theology".
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34
Inherit the kingdom of God means the person has their part in the kingdom of God.
Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, have no part in the kingdom of God.
They will here these words from Jesus Christ when He returns.
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
These will have their part in the lake of fire.
JLB
I said this:
"You've conflated 2 separate things. The ones who have their part in the lake of fire do so because they NEVER received the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23, Jn 6:40) and didn't have their names in the book of life (Rev 20;15)."
"You've conflated 2 separate things. The ones who have their part in the lake of fire do so because they NEVER received the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23, Jn 6:40) and didn't have their names in the book of life (Rev 20;15)."
It's interesting how you consistently ignore what I say. How does what you've posted here have anything to do with my charge that you've conflated 2 separate things?
You have not dealt with the verses I presented. You have given me a beautiful example of a red herring fallacy by ignoring the verses I present to push your own agenda of OSAS.
Here are the verses again:
Of course 'to persevere means to keep believing' and that's what is taught in John 3:36 (ESV) and John 5:24 (ESV).
Those who cease to believe are those who fall away from the faith, i.e. commit apostasy. This is taught in verses such as,
- 2 Thess 2:3 (ESV);
- 1 Tim 1:18-19 (ESV);
- 1 Tim 4:1 (ESV);
- 2 Tim 3:1-9 (ESV);
- Heb 3:12 (ESV);
- Heb 6:4-8 (ESV);
- 2 Peter 2:20-22 (ESV).
You state, 'Perseverance in the faith is an erroneous Calvinist doctrine'. No, it's a biblical doctrine that FreeGrace will not receive as taught in the Scriptures. In spite of the biblical evidence I provide, you refuse to accept the content of these verses.
I have nothing further to say than....
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Concerning eternal life as a free gift, what is just as true is the wages of sin is death. Eternal Death.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
The context is clear: Eternal life vs eternal death.
If your a believer (obeyer of the Gospel) then eternal life.
If your a former believer, someone who once believed then fell away, then you are disqualified as a believer for eternal life because you have no way to receive the forgiveness of sin any longer, because you no longer believe, nor do you confess your sin to be forgiven, so you remain in your sins.
The wages for this is death.
JLB
All humans are born spiritually dead, per Eph 2:1 - And you were dead in your trespasses and sins
What reason is there to not believe that eternal life, as a gift of God, is not irrevocable?
Correct. And Eph 1:13 tells us WHEN we are placed "in Christ": when we believe in Him. Eph 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
There it is: having believed, you were sealed in Him. Straight from Scripture.
Of course. But remember that all humans are born spiritually dead. We don't become that way. And Jesus told us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Correct. And those who have been given the irrevocable gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, so said Jesus.
Because eternal life is irrevocable.
The problem with your view is that you cannot provide any support from Scripture that eternal life can be revoked. In fact, I've provided Scripture that states clearly that God's gifts, one of which is eternal life, are irrevocable.
You've not shown that Paul wasn't including the gift of eternal life when he penned Rom 11:29.
If your view were true, there would be no better verse to express it than John 10:28. It would look something like this:
'and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, unless one ceases to believe, or starts to sin more, or _____ fill in the blank); and no one will snatch them out of My hand.'
So, where is such a verse? The truth is that none exists. There are NO exceptions to Jesus' promise in John 10:28.
Those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That is a guarantee of eternal security.
Please define what you mean by "this". And what verse tells us that the wage for "this" is death, meaning clearly spiritual death.
Please support your claims with clearly stated Scripture, as I've done.
That is not what Romans 11:29 (NIV) teaches. Let's look at the verse of Romans 11:29 in context:
Applying 'God's gifts and his call are irrrevocable' to Christian believers to bolster your OSAS position defies the exegesis of this passage. That 'irrevocable' meaning applies to Israel's gifts and call. That's the context.
[Deleted. WIP]
Oz
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Here is my clearly stated scripture again:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
Just as the portion of this scripture is clear concerning eternal life, so is it clear concerning eternal death.
Here's the context leading up to this verse.
Romans 6:
- 15] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
- 16] Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Christians who present themselves as a slave to sin; sin will eventually become their master, and lead them into eternal death.
Christians who present themselves as slaves of righteousness, with Christ as your rightful Lord and Master; will eventually lead to becoming righteous, as He is righteous.
That's why the Psalmist says... He leads us in the paths of righteousness
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
JLB