If Jesus Isn't God, Then Is god Only a Two-ity?

[Pard]

OK, great. So some people do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Let's just entertain their view for a moment, shall we? The only reason they give is because they claim Jesus is simply the Son of God and that is it (it's way more in depth, but there are about 10 topics on this, plus another 20 hijacked topics on it... so go read those).

They are basically attacking one third of the Trinity, the part with Jesus. That still leaves God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe in the Trinity (God, Jesus, Spirit) then do you believe in a two-ity (God, Spirit)? If not, then what is the Spirit? Or do you not believe in that either?

 

[watchman F]

OK, great. So some people do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Let's just entertain their view for a moment, shall we? The only reason they give is because they claim Jesus is simply the Son of God and that is it (it's way more in depth, but there are about 10 topics on this, plus another 20 hijacked topics on it... so go read those).

They are basically attacking one third of the Trinity, the part with Jesus. That still leaves God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe in the Trinity (God, Jesus, Spirit) then do you believe in a two-ity (God, Spirit)? If not, then what is the Spirit? Or do you not believe in that either?

God the Father is the Holy Spirit.

P.S. I do no t deny the deity of Christ.

 

[Caroline H]

If Jesus Isn't God, Then Is god Only a Two-ity?

Um, wouldn't that be a "binity?"

 

[ORwarriOR]

OK, great. So some people do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Let's just entertain their view for a moment, shall we? The only reason they give is because they claim Jesus is simply the Son of God and that is it (it's way more in depth, but there are about 10 topics on this, plus another 20 hijacked topics on it... so go read those).

They are basically attacking one third of the Trinity, the part with Jesus. That still leaves God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe in the Trinity (God, Jesus, Spirit) then do you believe in a two-ity (God, Spirit)? If not, then what is the Spirit? Or do you not believe in that either?

I believe God is a God-figure with our image; He said "let us create man in our image" perhaps this meant the image of both Christ and God? Showing the separation of God and his son from genesis. I believe the holy spirit is his omnipresent will emanating from himself. I don't believe the holy spirit is a person, but rather simply the power of God.

I just stumble over so many verses and so many things that can't be explained, and maybe I just need to sit down with my pastor and try to wrap my mind around it some more; because God isn't the author of confusion, he doesn't ask us to put blind faith in his word, but rather he requires us to understand it. I just can't understand certain things when there are stumbling blocks in the way such as this:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. (Mark 10:18 NIV)

I just don't understand the purpose of calling Jesus the son if he didn't mean it. Why would God author confusion if so many people claim he is not the author of confusion. Son and Father are always seperate entities, a son will have part of a father this is true; and that part was the holy spirit and direct synergy with his will which I imagine is why he said "I and the father are one". But again, there are just so many statements which separate God and Jesus which make it hard for me to believe in the trinity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus is God !

orwar:

I believe God is a God-figure with our image; He said "let us create man in our image" perhaps this meant the image of both Christ and God?

Gen 1:26

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now we know that this scripture is speaking of Adam being made in the image of God. Notice too its our [plural] Image.

So if Adam was made after the Image of God, and being so made he took on the form of a man, then one of the Us was a Man !

Paul wrote that Adam was a figure [image] of Him that was to come, which was Christ Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The word figure is the greek word typos and means:

the mark of a stroke or blow, print

2) a figure formed by a blow or impression

a) of a figure or image

So, If Adam was a image of Him to come, which was Christ, and he was made in the Image and Likeness of God per Gen 1:26, then Christ was the Man, The Mediator as in 1 Tim 2:5 that was one of the Us, when God said Let us Make Man in our Image and Likeness. So Jesus Christ is God. He is one of the Us of Elohim in Gen 1:26, cant be any plainer.

 

[Natasha]

Re: Jesus is God !

orwar:



Gen 1:26

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now we know that this scripture is speaking of Adam being made in the image of God. Notice too its our [plural] Image.

So if Adam was made after the Image of God, and being so made he took on the form of a man, then one of the Us was a Man !

Paul wrote that Adam was a figure [image] of Him that was to come, which was Christ Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The word figure is the greek word typos and means:

the mark of a stroke or blow, print

2) a figure formed by a blow or impression

a) of a figure or image

So, If Adam was a image of Him to come, which was Christ, and he was made in the Image and Likeness of God per Gen 1:26, then Christ was the Man, The Mediator as in 1 Tim 2:5 that was one of the Us, when God said Let us Make Man in our Image and Likeness. So Jesus Christ is God. He is one of the Us of Elohim in Gen 1:26, cant be any plainer.

Hi there,

That is true, man was made in the image of God, and Jesus is the "express image of His Fathers person" (Heb 1:3). All things were given to Jesus by God, including "life in Himself" (John 5:26) Only God has life in Himself, this act of giving it to Jesus has given Jesus the ability of creation. That is why God could say to His Only Begotten Son, Let us make man in our image. Jesus is Divine by virtue of His inheritance, just like my son is human because I am human, Jesus is Devine because His Father is God. God Bless,

Natasha

 

[Brother Lawrence]

I just can't understand certain things when there are stumbling blocks in the way such as this:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. (Mark 10:18 NIV)

Jesus was basically asking his questioner the same question he eventually asked Peter: "...who do you say that I am?". No one is good but God, are you calling me God?

 

[Natasha]

Jesus was basically asking his questioner the same question he eventually asked Peter: "...who do you say that I am?". No one is good but God, are you calling me God?

And what was Peters answer, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" Matt 16:16

 

[Vic C.]

And what was Peters answer, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" Matt 16:16

... and Thomas, when faced with a similar situation, said:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

There are a couple of ways to interpret Mark 10:18 (also Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19). Of course, skeptics will use this verse as proof text, denying the deity of Jesus. It's just not that simple. Solid doctrine does not come simply from proof texting.

Jesus is challenging this person. The person referred to Jesus as "Good Master (or good teacher). Jesus, in turn, is saying to him, if you believe I am good, than you must believe I am God. Jesus is attempting to lead this person to the truth of who He truly was.

John Calvin wrote this:

17. Why callest thou me good? I do not understand this correction in so refined a sense as is given by a good part of interpreters, as if Christ intended to suggest his Divinity; for they imagine that these words mean, "If thou perceivest in me nothing more exalted than human nature, thou falsely appliest to me the epithet good, which belongs to God alone." I do acknowledge that, strictly speaking, men and even angels do not deserve so honorable a title; because they have not a drop of goodness in themselves, but borrowed from God; and because in the former, goodness is only begun, and is not perfect. But Christ had no other intention than to maintain the truth of his doctrine; as if he had said, "Thou falsely callest me a good Master, unless thou acknowledgest that I have come from God."

The essence of his Godhead, therefore, is not here maintained, but the young man is directed to admit the truth of the doctrine. He had already felt some disposition to obey; but Christ wishes him to rise higher, that he may hear God speaking. For -- as it is customary with men to make angels of those who are devils -- they indiscriminately give the appellation of good teachers to those in whom they perceive nothing divine; but those modes of speaking are only profanations of the gifts of God. We need not wonder, therefore, if Christ, in order to maintain the authority of his doctrine, directs the young man to God.

Unless one reads something into the verse that just isn't there, one has to come to the realization that Jesus did not say He wasn't good. This man now has two choices; either he admits that Jesus is not good or admit He is good and that He is God.

We know, without a doubt, that HE was good. There is no middle ground.


Whenever this topic comes up, I usually ask this question:

How many Saviors do we have, one or two?

 

[Free]

... and Thomas, when faced with a similar situation, said:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

There are a couple of ways to interpret Mark 10:18 (also Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19). Of course, skeptics will use this verse as proof text, denying the deity of Jesus. It's just not that simple. Solid doctrine does not come simply from proof texting.

Jesus is challenging this person. The person referred to Jesus as "Good Master (or good teacher). Jesus, in turn, is saying to him, if you believe I am good, than you must believe I am God. Jesus is attempting to lead this person to the truth of who He truly was.

John Calvin wrote this:



Unless one reads something into the verse that just isn't there, one has to come to the realization that Jesus did not say He wasn't good. This man now has two choices; either he admits that Jesus is not good or admit He is good and that He is God.

We know, without a doubt, that HE was good. There is no middle ground.


Whenever this topic comes up, I usually ask this question:

How many Saviors do we have, one or two?

Not that you need my stamp of approval, but

 

[Natasha]

... and Thomas, when faced with a similar situation, said:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

There are a couple of ways to interpret Mark 10:18 (also Matthew 19:17 and Luke 18:19). Of course, skeptics will use this verse as proof text, denying the deity of Jesus. It's just not that simple. Solid doctrine does not come simply from proof texting.

Jesus is challenging this person. The person referred to Jesus as "Good Master (or good teacher). Jesus, in turn, is saying to him, if you believe I am good, than you must believe I am God. Jesus is attempting to lead this person to the truth of who He truly was.

John Calvin wrote this:



Unless one reads something into the verse that just isn't there, one has to come to the realization that Jesus did not say He wasn't good. This man now has two choices; either he admits that Jesus is not good or admit He is good and that He is God.

We know, without a doubt, that HE was good. There is no middle ground.


Whenever this topic comes up, I usually ask this question:

How many Saviors do we have, one or two?

Hi there,

How many God's do we have, One or two? Jesus also said to Mary, ".....I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" John 20:17 Who is the God of Jesus?.........His Father, can God have a God? I don't know about that, but I do know that a Divine Son can have a Father and a God. I do not deny the divinity of Jesus, I do however believe that Jesus is not God the Father, but is His Son.

Jesus' goodness came from the Father, "every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights...." Jas 1:17 Jesus had no advantage over us, He did not use His divinity to be "good" on earth, we are told to "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" Phil 2:5 This is the mind/Spirit of the Father.

God Bless,

Natasha

 

[Brother Lawrence]

Hi there,

How many God's do we have, One or two? Jesus also said to Mary, ".....I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" John 20:17 Who is the God of Jesus?.........His Father, can God have a God? I don't know about that, but I do know that a Divine Son can have a Father and a God. I do not deny the divinity of Jesus, I do however believe that Jesus is not God the Father, but is His Son.

Jesus' goodness came from the Father, "every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights...." Jas 1:17 Jesus had no advantage over us, He did not use His divinity to be "good" on earth, we are told to "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" Phil 2:5 This is the mind/Spirit of the Father.

God Bless,

Natasha

How do you read this passage from Isaiah 9:6, then -

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

-which is about the most Trinitarian verse in the Bible?

Tell me, do you think Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

 

[Free]

Hi there,

How many God's do we have, One or two? Jesus also said to Mary, ".....I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" John 20:17 Who is the God of Jesus?.........His Father, can God have a God? I don't know about that, but I do know that a Divine Son can have a Father and a God. I do not deny the divinity of Jesus, I do however believe that Jesus is not God the Father, but is His Son.

Jesus' goodness came from the Father, "every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights...." Jas 1:17 Jesus had no advantage over us, He did not use His divinity to be "good" on earth, we are told to "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" Phil 2:5 This is the mind/Spirit of the Father.

God Bless,

Natasha

Just to reiterate what Vic said: "Solid doctrine does not come simply from proof texting."

 

[Drew]

I just can't understand certain things when there are stumbling blocks in the way such as this:
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. (Mark 10:18 NIV).

This statement by Jesus is not, in my view, any kind of challenge to the view that Jesus is fully "God".

With all due respect, there appears to be a strong strain of over-literalism in North American Christian culture. I suggest that to see this text as Jesus saying He (Jesus) is not "good" is an example of this faulty "way" of reading Biblical texts.

The statement is, I propose, Jesus' way of saying that human beings in general are not good - He is not saying "I, Jesus, as a human being, am also 'not good'":

Besides, even if you insist on taking this text "literally", one can respond by asserting that in saying "only God is good", Jesus has not clearly excluded Himself from the "God" category. In other words, Jesus could say this:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

....even if this statement is "qualified" by supplementary information which is left unstated as per following, namely that Jesus belongs to the "God" category.

Note that this could be the case even if Jesus does not know that He is "God". In fact, if Jesus' "knowledge" of his own Divinity is like what I talk about in the following paragraph, his statement becomes even less "problematic".

A special note to Free and anyone else who is interested: You and I see eye to eye on a lot, but I am open to NT Wright's argument that Jesus "the man" did not understand Himself to be "God" in the conventional Trinitarian sense. Wright speculates that Jesus was gripped by the vocation to do for Israel and the world what God had promised to do. On this view, Jesus is most certainly fully God, He just does not understand this in a "doctrinal" sense. Instead, He is deeply gripped by this sense of "vocation" to do something that is "God's job". This is tricky, but I am inclined to believe that if someone asked Jesus "Are you the second person of the Trinity?", Jesus might not have been able to answer the question.

To be fair - at his trial before Caiaphus, Jesus quotes from Daniel 7, placing Himself in the position of the "son of man" character who is raised "on the clouds" to sit at God's right hand.

Does this mean that Jesus fully "understood" that He was "God"? I am not sure.

But I want to be crystal clear about one thing: I am a 100 % , no holds-barred, full-on, unqualified Trinitarian. To raise questions about Jesus' self-knowledge of His own divinity is not to question the fact of His divinity.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

How do you read this passage from Isaiah 9:6, then -

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

-which is about the most Trinitarian verse in the Bible?

Tell me, do you think Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

Still waiting for an answer on this one and I will ask flat out ask this time if those of you who don't believe Jesus is "fully God" are Jehovah's Witnesses...

 

[D4Christ]

Tell me, do you think Jesus is Michael the Archangel?
Still waiting for an answer on this one and I will ask flat out ask this time if those of you who don't believe Jesus is "fully God" are Jehovah's Witnesses...

I am a non trinitarian. No, I am not a JW. Michael is an Arch angel, not Christ. And yes, I do believe that Christ is God in nature having all the qualities of God like his Father.

Hebrews 1 3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. 4 This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.
5 For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”
God also said,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”
6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said,
“Let all of God’s angels worship him.”
7 Regarding the angels, he says,
“He sends his angels like the winds,
his servants like flames of fire.”
8 But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
9 You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.”

There is no way the Father could have given God-like responsibilites to any other being unless that being also possessed the same capabilities of the Father. There is only one being that qualifies and that is Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father.

To be someone's child means that a person has all of the attributes, chemical dna and compositon of its parents. That is why you will never see a cat begot or birth a mouse and you will never see humans put apes in charge of other humans. Only humans can birth other humans and only humans will put other humans in charge of humankind matters. The Father begot a Son, a Son brought into existence (v.6) with all the attributes of His Father. And that Son was given the responsibility of "all authority" (for a time) and given the responsibilty to take care of Godkind matters. There is no one else in existence with God's qualities who can do this. Christ himself states that when He completes all of his tasks, he will turn "all authority" back over to his Father.

In response to Isaiah 9

NLT
6 For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 His government and its peace
will never end.
He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David
for all eternity.
The passionate commitment of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies
will make this happen!

The verse says simply "he will be called" or "his name will be called (KJV)". In either case, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace are things people will say about Christ...these are not names for Christ. If it were the passage would have said his "names" will be called, however the singular is used.

This is not uncommon for many people today have a name that is called by other attributes, ie. Trump is called a mogul, businessman, etc. These attributes represent who Trump is.....but his name is only Trump. Likewise, Christ's name is called Wonderful Counselor (counselor being an attribute of the HS). This makes sense because the HS operates in the name of Christ. Christ is called Mighty God because he has the attributes and very character of God, thus the Father himself calls His own son God. Christ is called Everlasting Father, because Christ operates and comes in the name of His Father. In fact Christ says, "Holy Father, you have given me your name..." (wonder how many people are jr.s on this board?). Lastly, his name will be called the Prince of Peace, after all he is our Messiah.

It's interesting to note that the last line of the passage states that in reference to the child born and all that is said about him, that the Lord of Heavens Armies will make all of this happen. Lord in the OT means YHWH. YHWH is stating that he will make all this come to pass for the child, ie His Son.

Thus making two beings into one...one who clearly states He begot the other and calls him His Son...and one who clearly listens to and takes direction from the other.....seems contrary to what Christ and His Father are telling us about their own relationship and how it is to be viewed by us.

Blessings,

Dee

 

[warhorse]

OK, great. So some people do not believe in the Holy Trinity. Let's just entertain their view for a moment, shall we? The only reason they give is because they claim Jesus is simply the Son of God and that is it (it's way more in depth, but there are about 10 topics on this, plus another 20 hijacked topics on it... so go read those).

They are basically attacking one third of the Trinity, the part with Jesus. That still leaves God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe in the Trinity (God, Jesus, Spirit) then do you believe in a two-ity (God, Spirit)? If not, then what is the Spirit? Or do you not believe in that either?

Col 2v8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[jasoncran]

brother lawrence this former jehovah's witness believes in the truine nature of God hands down.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

brother lawrence this former jehovah's witness believes in the truine nature of God hands down.

All I can tell you is that I have met plenty of them who don't.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

To be someone's child means that a person has all of the attributes, chemical dna and compositon of its parents.

In this case, Jesus had all of the characteristics of his mother, Mary, which was foretold from old. We don't know if God even has DNA.

That is why you will never see a cat begot or birth a mouse and you will never
see humans put apes in charge of other humans. Only humans can birth other
humans and only humans will put other humans in charge of humankind
matters.

I don't know what this means but Jesus clearly said that he was about his Father's business, not any human matters except as it pertained to his Father and his kingdom.

The Father begot a Son, a Son brought into
existence... (v.6)

No, he didn't bring him into existence, he brought him into the world. Big difference. He had already existed, and I think you should know that when the Bible refers to Jesus as "firstborn", it refers to his authority, not whether he was born of anything, flesh or spirit.




In response to Isaiah 9

The verse says simply "he will be called" or "his name will be called (KJV)".

And why would they call him that? Occam's razor comes into effect here: they call him those things because that's who he is.