If Jesus was GOD

[Muhsen]

If Jesus was GOD


If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of
crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

 

[YESHUA]

If Jesus was GOD


If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of
crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

So you recognize that JESUS is the SON OF GOD
Shalom and love in the name of YESHUA coming soon

 

[Muhsen]

LOL, you came to say that, give me answers to all these

 

[Iconodule]

Muhsen,

I have been here a while and have read a lot of your posts. You claim that you know a lot about our Scritpures and claim that they all say that Jesus is not the Son of God. Please then explain this passage from the Bible.

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." Genesis1:26

It can clearly be seen that God is talking to somebody. Who is he talking to Muhsen?

 

[Quath]

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness." Genesis1:26

It can clearly be seen that God is talking to somebody. Who is he talking to Muhsen?

The early Hebrews were polytheistic and some versions of the Bible still allude to their polytheism. It wasn't until 200 years after Moses that a priest of Yaweh "found" a hidden message from Moses that said they should just worship one God, which just happened to be the god that the priest worshiped. So the Hebrew people converted to monotheism and destroyed all references to the other gods (including the human sacrafice equipment.)

A good historical look at this changover can be found at http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch08.htm.

Quath

 

[Asimov]

There are also other reasons that could be possibilities. He could be speaking to an Angelic host, as God gives no time frame as to when he created the Angels. There is also another idea that God is using the royal 'we'.

 

[Muhsen]

Trinitarian Christians maintain that Genesis 1:26 is prooftexts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is erroneous. The inference that "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26) refers to the plurality of God is refuted by the subsequent verse, which relates the creation of man to a singular God, "And God created man in His image" (Genesis 1:27). In this verse the Hebrew verb "created" appears in the singular form. If "let us make man" indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the next verse by, "And they created man in their image." Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim, to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself' yet he refers to himself as "we" .

by the way you did not answer my first post Archon

 

[Imagican]

LOL, you came to say that, give me answers to all these

What answers are you looking for? You seem to have an understanding of the truth already. Jesus was NOT God but the Son of God. The quotes that you offered are pieces of proof to this end. Christ admitted himself who he was and God also offered us the identity of his Son.

 

[Free]

Trinitarian Christians maintain that Genesis 1:26 is prooftexts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is erroneous. The inference that "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26) refers to the plurality of God is refuted by the subsequent verse, which relates the creation of man to a singular God, "And God created man in His image" (Genesis 1:27). In this verse the Hebrew verb "created" appears in the singular form. If "let us make man" indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the next verse by, "And they created man in their image." Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim, to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself' yet he refers to himself as "we" .

by the way you did not answer my first post Archon

You missed the whole point of that argument Mushen. It is God who says "let us make man in our image;" this shows his plurality. Then when it states that God "created man in his own image," it is showing his "monotheicity". In other words, there is a plurality in the unity of God. THat is the only reasonable explanation of this passage.

If by "us" and "our" God was referring to someone other than himself, as many argue, then the next verse would directly contradict it since man would not be made in only God's image.

 

[Muhsen]

Ok brothers, Archon of Orthodoxy has turned us out of my topic and nobody gave explanations.

How come Christians take the "God's Son" title literally with Jesus and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called the Sons of God?
In John 3:16 Jesus was called God's only Begotten Son.
In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehova, Isreal is my son, even my firstborn." Isreal was called God's First Son.
In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Isreal, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.In Psalm 2:7 "... Jehova had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." David was called God's Begotten Son.

Were Jesus's Miracle's Unique?
If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).

[Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed. Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).

Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34). Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).
Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!
Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Isreal ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."
And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."

The Point that I am trying to prove:

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God's words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God. Muslims also believe that Jesus was never crucified, nor ever died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was sent to earth to die on the cross .

 

[aiki]

Howdy! Gonna' take a run at some of this stuff. :-D

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

Check out Philippians 2:6&7. Speaking of Christ, it says, "Who being in the form of God, did not think it robbery to be equal with God (or, better: did not think equality with God something to be grasped): But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men..."

Under these conditions it makes perfect sense for Jesus to say the things he does, the way he does, in the verses cited above.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

Jesus is not denying his God-hood with this question. It was a basic tenet of the Jewish faith that only God was good (as Jesus points out). So, then, when the young ruler refers to Jesus this way he is implying, intended or not, something about the nature of Christ. Which is what Jesus highlights with his question and statement. Essentially, Jesus was asking, "Are you calling me God?" It is not a denial of his divinity; just a thought-provoking question which actually points to his deity.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of
crucifixion?

This passage doesn't bear the characterization of Jesus "begging God" nor the notion that he was asking for death. That is your personal spin on it. Jesus, as Philippians 2 tells us, laid aside his heavenly glory and power as God to fulfill the plan of salvation. Having taken on the likeness of Man, Jesus had to contend with all the drives, urges, and weaknesses of being human. (Remember, he was "tempted in all points like as we were, yet without sin".) This included the powerful human instinct for self-preservation and the natural urge to avoid pain. HIs prayer to God in Gethsemane reflects the fact that he was fully man under the pressure of these instincts while at the same time still being divine.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

Perhaps, being God, Jesus knew better than you when not to speak. :wink: :D

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?

Actually, in this verse, Jesus doesn't say he doesn't know. He says men and angels don't know, but not that he didn't know. Since in another place Jesus said very plainly, "I and my Father are one," (Jn. 10:30) I expect he did know.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

This was a kind of "walk the talk" statement. Following this remark, Jesus goes on to explain that his works, not his words, would bear witness to his divinity. And they did. I think rising from the dead pretty much clinched it.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

Rather than being a statement of Jesus' disunity with God, this remark is explained as a reflection of the harmony between he and God when Jesus says shortly after, "I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me."

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

See Philippians 2.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

John 5:32 doesn't say this. I think you've mixed up your references.

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

Could it be, possibly, that he wanted to set a good example for you and I to follow? It was also probably a pleasant break from being thronged all day.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

Again, the matter of a good example. Jesus was on earth, having divested himself of his heavenly place; it wasn't like he could pick up a phone and call God long distance. Just part of taking on flesh and dwelling among us. (I suppose he didn't have to throw himself on the ground, but, given the circumstances, it seems rather appropriate, I think.)

Can I ask you to explain some verses in return, please?

Colossians 1:15: Jesus is described as "the image of the invisible God". If Jesus isn't God how can he be what this verse says he is?

Why is Jesus the Messiah called the "everlasting Father" and "MIghty God" in Isa. 9:6?

Titus 2:13 refers to Jesus as "the Great God and our Saviour". If Jesus is not God why is he referred to this way?

(Please note: In Titus 2:13 two nouns "God" and "Saviour" are joined together with the Greek word for "and", and a definite article ("the") is placed only in front of the first noun ("God). The sentence literally reads: "the great God and Saviour of us." In this particular sentence construction in the Greek New Testament, the two nouns in question -- "God" and "Saviour" -- are referring to the same person, Jesus Christ.)

Colossians 2:9 says that in Christ "dwells all the fulness of the God-head bodily." How can this be if Jesus isn't God?

IN Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is said to be the "express image" of God. How so, if he is not God?

How do explain the fact that in scripture both God and Christ are said to have created all things?

Muhsen, you aren't a JW are you? :o

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Muhsen]

Philippians describes Jesus (peace be upon him) as follows:

Who, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:

But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:

And BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, HE HUMBLED HIMSELF, AND BECAME OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH, EVEN THE DEATH OF THE CROSS.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Emphasis added.

Is this a description of a being who is "co-equal, co-substantial, and co-eternal" with God, as the "Trinity" doctrine requires?

Definitely NOT!

Remember, according to the Bible:

So GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS [OWN] IMAGE, IN THE IMAGE OF GOD CREATED HE HIM; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:27, emphasis added.

So for Jesus to be "in the form of God" (Phil. 2:6) is no big deal: According to Genesis 1:27, WE ALL ARE!

Moreover, if Jesus acted as "a servant," "humbled himself" and "became obedient unto death." HE WAS SUBORDINATE TO GOD, not co-equal with God, as the Trinity doctrine requires.

Finally, if Jesus ACTUALLY died, he was not "co-existent" with God - because his death would mark as point when his existence was INTERRUPTED, but Gods was NOT!

What we have in Philippians is NOT an example of "Trinitarianism," but, at most, a suggestion that Jesus was somehow superhuman. Tales of superhuman beings such as the mythical "Adam Kadmon" and "Metatron" abound in Jewish folklore - and even sometimes find expression in the Old Testament (e.g. tales relating to Melchizadek). Such tales, however, do not a triune God make!

 

[Blazin Bones]

That Phillipians passage does support Christ's diety by showing that he was fully God and fully man at the same time.

 

[aiki]

Muhsen:

I assumed you understood the doctrine of the Incarnation. Philippians 2 expresses this doctrine perhaps better than any other passage of scripture.

What you seem to have missed in your haste to defend your theological castle is that Jesus "made himself" of no reputation; he made himself a servant; he took upon himself the likeness of men. He did this as a willful act of his own.

IN the Incarnation Jesus made himself inferior to God. Becoming a man was a humiliation for Christ; it required that he set aside his heavenly glory and place. The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: "equal to the Father concerning his Godhood and inferior to the Father concerning his manhood."

So for Jesus to be "in the form of God" (Phil. 2:6) is no big deal: According to Genesis 1:27, WE ALL ARE!

Yes, well, unlike Christ, you did not put aside your heavenly glory and power to become a man. Christ "put on flesh", but you and I were made flesh. There's a BIG difference.

Finally, if Jesus ACTUALLY died, he was not "co-existent" with God - because his death would mark as point when his existence was INTERRUPTED, but Gods was NOT!

As scripture teaches, death is not an end of existence, but an alteration of, or change to, it. Death is just a doorway to a new kind of existence.

I couldn't help noticing that you ignored a great deal of my post in your response. I'm sure others noticed as well. :wink: Care to explain your postion in light of all that I posted? I'm all eyes! :o :-D

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[YESHUA]

LOL, you came to say that, give me answers to all these

Matthew 27
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Marke 14
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
John 12
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? The ARM being JESUS
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Being you and anybody that does not believe in JESUS
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. You take word of Muhammad over the word of JESUS.
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And who send HIM?
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[Muhsen]

Biblical Refutation Of the Trinity

Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".
Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied divinity.
Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Mark 16:19 and Luke 22:69 - Jesus at the right hand of God.
Luke 3:21, 5:16, 6:12, 9:18, 9:28, 11:1-4, 22:41 - Jesus prayed.
Luke 4:18, 9:48, 10:16 - Jesus was from God.
Luke 7:16, 13:33, 24:18-19 - Jesus was a prophet.
Luke 10:21 - Jesus gave thanks.
Luke 23:46 - The spirit of Jesus was commended to God.
John 4:19 - Jesus was a prophet.
John 4:23-24 - Worship in spirit and truth.
John 14:28 - One was greater than the other.
John 5:19, 5:30, 7:28, 8:28 - Jesus was helpless.
John 5:20 - The Father showed the son.
John 5:30 and 6:38 - Jesus and God had different wills.
John 5:31-32 - Jesus' witness was not true.
John 6:11 and 11:41-42 - Jesus gave thanks.
John 6:32 - The Father was the provider, not the son.
John 7:29, 16:5, 16:28 - Jesus was from God.
John 7:16, 12:49, 14:24, 17:14 - Jesus' words were not his.
John 8:42 - Jesus did not come of himself.
John 10:29 - "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all."
John 14:1 - Jesus said, "...believe also in me."
John 14:16, 17:1, 17:9, 17:11, 17:15 - Jesus prayed.
John 14:31 and 15:10 - Jesus followed commands.
John 17:6-8 - "I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me."
John 20:17 - Jesus had a god.
Acts 2:22 - Jesus was "a man approved of God."
Romans 8:34 - Jesus was an intercessor.
1 Timothy 2:5 - Jesus was the mediator between God and humans

 

[YESHUA]

Biblical Refutation Of the Trinity


John 5:31-32 - Jesus' witness was not true.

Oh yes it was read verse 36 and pay attention to verse 40

John 5

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life[/size].
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And I really don't understand you and the other Muslims writing on this forum why are you so hell bend to disprove Jesus was/is the SON OF GOD what is it to you?
You even lie and distort the truth to fit Jesus into the Qur'an we don't lie when we say that Muhammd is not mention in the Bible could you please explain if you can why this is so?
shalom and love in the name of YESHUA coming soon and what will you say to HIM?
chana

 

[aiki]

Muhsen:

It seems you've responded to my post by not actually responding to it. Posting a long list of verses which you aren't equipped, as a Muslim, to discuss in depth and in the full context of scripture looks very much like a deflection of my points and questions to you. Your response isn't designed to foster discussion, but prevent it. Why is that?

In Christ, Aiki.

P.S. - I'm still waiting for you to address my points and questions specifically.

 

[Muhsen]

I gave some evidences from your book, that Jesus was neither God nor son of God.

As Example in John 4:19 - prove that Jesus was a prophet. So if you answer no he wasn't prophet , so what the response that you looking for, while from your book clearly available.

 

[aiki]

Muhsen:

I already demonstrated how some of the other proof-texts you gave do not actually support the idea that Jesus wasn't God. You made no comment at all about this. Why?

I also asked you some questions, but you have yet to answer them directly. Again, why?

The impression you're giving is that you aren't able to actually defend your posts from scripture. You appear to be a Muslim on a Christian site hoping to create doubt and confusion among the Christians and seekers on it. If this is true, what you're doing really sucks! :evil: I guess I should be grateful, though, that you aren't able to post bombs on the site... :o

Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God

Exodus 33:20 - Moses has asked God if he can see his face. God denies him this request, explaining that "no man can see my face and live". (vs. 20) Instead, God covers MOses with His hand and, as He passes by Moses, allows Him a glimpse of His "hinder parts". (vs. 21-23) So, Moses did actually see God, Muhsen, but because you do nothing but proof-text, you do not know this.

John 1:18 - This verse states that, "no man has seen God at any time." The word "seen" means to "stare", or to "discern clearly" (physically or mentally) - (Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dict.) While it is true that no man living on this earth has seen Father-God, Jehovah, in His glorious entirety, we have seen his humiliated, earthly Incarnation in the person of Christ. (Phil. 2:5-11) But since you don't understand scripture by scripture, Muhsen, but fracture verses from their immediate and broader context, you have inappropriately used John 1:18 to support something which it does not.

1 Timothy 6:16 - This verse speaks of "the light in which God dwells" which "no man can approach unto". It is speaking of God the Father's heavenly, glorified state, which, obviously, no man living on this earth can see. Christ, though, as the God-man, willfully divested of his glory, lived and walked among us. He said, "He who has seen me has seen the FAther..." (Jn. 14:9).

Your "refutation" of the Trinity isn't going very well, Muhsen. :roll: :P

Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.

What does this have to do with the Trinity? God says here that "my glory will I not give to another", but, since God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are ONe, God doesn't, in sharing His glory with the Son and Spirit, "give to another" in the sense of that being someone not God (which is what "another" refers to). Simple, huh? Muhsen, you shouldn't use that which you don't know to refute that which you don't understand. Not a good plan. :roll:

I don't think I'll go any further. I suspect that all the remaining verses are similarly faulty in their use as a basis for the denial of Jesus' deity.

In Christ, Aiki.