If we're Bible believing Christians why do some of us argue the Bible isn't to be believed when it says....

[FreeGrace]

Matthew 5:44 "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

This is a big one that is totally ignored and not believed

There are a lot of verses that are either ignored or disbelieved. The list is quite long.

But to point out just one:
John 10:28-29

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. He gave no conditions to recipients of eternal life in order for them to never perish. Just the fact that He gives eternal life is the reason recipients shall never perish.

But the debate rages on.

Sadly.

 

[FreeGrace]

The reason being is much due to our old man, or nature we need to overcome.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

If we had only this verse, it would seem that the believer would need to overcome his old man, or sinful nature. But we know that this is impossible, because our "will power" is seated in our sinful nature. We need a power source outside of our sinful nature.

And God has provided for that by giving every believer the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In fact, Eph 4:24 says: "and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."

To "put on the new self" is a reference to being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), or to walk by the means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16).

However, Paul's commands to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit reveal activities that we are not to do, and even to stop doing them.

So, instead of overcoming our sinful nature, by submission to the Holy Spirit, we allow Him to overcome our sinful nature.

 

[JLB]

1. *Salvation is Eternal
2. *God calls women to ministry
3. *We can never lose our eternal life
4. *________________________insert your favorite here.

Please post the scriptures for each of your 3 claims.




JLB

 

[JLB]

There are a lot of verses that are either ignored or disbelieved. The list is quite long.

But to point out just one:
John 10:28-29

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. He gave no conditions to recipients of eternal life in order for them to never perish. Just the fact that He gives eternal life is the reason recipients shall never perish.

But the debate rages on.

Sadly.

Here is what Jesus taught us in John 10:27-28



27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Eternal life is giving to those who hear and follow Him; Those who are led by Him.


Here are those who will come forth in the resurrection of life.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


It’s amazing to me that some Christians don’t believe these words of our Lord.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

JLB

 

[Eugene]

The reason being is much due to our old man, or nature we need to overcome.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

If we had only this verse, it would seem that the believer would need to overcome his old man, or sinful nature. But we know that this is impossible, because our "will power" is seated in our sinful nature. We need a power source outside of our sinful nature.

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation (manner of life) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (Are you saying that with our old man dead, we can continue to exhibit its manner of life?)

And God has provided for that by giving every believer the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Act 19:2 Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

 

[JLB]

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation (manner of life) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (Are you saying that with our old man dead, we can continue to exhibit its manner of life?)

Act 19:2 Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

Great scriptures to consider and reconcile into discussing this topic.

I for one, have had to learn some hard lessons through the years, as I grew in Christ.

Our Savior is sooooooo patient and merciful, ready to forgive and restore us when we wander from Him.

I believe we have all heard the story of the Shepherd who after going to find the lost lamb who wandered off, then breaks it leg, and carries it until, it is healed, to teach the lamb not to wander and how committed the Shepherd is to Him.

Well, I’m the one with four broken legs, that my gracious Lord has dealt with in this way, each time after repenting He has mercifully taken me back.

He carried me many times.

Though I may walk with a slight limp now, I stay with Him, within the length of His staff, so that His rod and staff conform me.


I can honestly say that I would be OSAS, based on my experience, however after thoroughly studying the scriptures, It is no where to be found, which causes me to be even more thankful and greatful to our gracious and believed Lord.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


A brother, such as myself, who wanders from the truth, has returned to being a sinner in danger of eternal death, unless he turns back (repents).



JLB

 

[The Light]

The problem is that the Bible's words are not our starting point. We all bring some individual "baggage" to the table of faith. We come from communities and cultures that influence our thinking and we have our own unique life experences that colors our perspectives differently. These things tend to influence what we gravitate to. Our preconceptions affect how we take in what is written. We all have a tendency to use the Bible to back up what we think is or already believe to be right whether it be about marriage, baptism, faith & works, the sabbath, etc. It's hard to accept, but people from spiritual backgrounds that are different from our own have faith experiences that are every bit as real, as impactful, and as meaningful as our own. That fact is why we should rely less on our own subjective perspectives and histories and more on the scriptures.

 

[JLB]

The problem is that the Bible's words are not our starting point. We all bring some individual "baggage" to the table of faith. We come from communities and cultures that influence our thinking and we have our own unique life experences that colors our perspectives differently. These things tend to influence what we gravitate to. Our preconceptions affect how we take in what is written. We all have a tendency to use the Bible to back up what we think is or already believe to be right whether it be about marriage, baptism, faith & works, the sabbath, etc. It's hard to accept, but people from spiritual backgrounds that are different from our own have faith experiences that are every bit as real, as impactful, and as meaningful as our own. That fact is why we should rely less on our own subjective perspectives and histories and more on the scriptures.

That may very well be true.

However, our Lord has called us to be renewed in our mind, which facilitates the process of transformation.

Our culture does not dictate the truth of God’s Kingdom.

Repentance is about turning to God, and changing who we serve, believe, and obey.


The Lord is merciful and patient, extending His grace to those who humble themselves and turn to Him as little children.



JLB

 

[Willie T]

Here's a frightening thought. If we were all supposed to be turned in Cookie Cutter Christians, then all of you would think exactly like me.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what Jesus taught us in John 10:27-28

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Just as I pointed out. Recipients (I give them eternal life) and they shall never perish.

Eternal life is giving to those who hear and follow Him; Those who are led by Him.

Where are these conditions mentioned in John 10:27-29? No where.

 

[Eugene]

Great scriptures to consider and reconcile into discussing this topic.

I for one, have had to learn some hard lessons through the years, as I grew in Christ.

Our Savior is sooooooo patient and merciful, ready to forgive and restore us when we wander from Him.

Thanks Brother JLB.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And God has provided for that by giving every believer the indwelling Holy Spirit."

Act 19:2 Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

First, the question was asked of 1st Century Gentile believers, who didn't immediately received the Spirit at the moment of faith, with Cornelius as an example. But even a cursory reading through Acts reveals that after a time, everyone who believes received the Spirit. And the epistles all confirm that.

Second, is this question to me a hint that I haven't yet received the Spirit? Seems so, which would be a violation of ToS. \

The fact that I said what I did say should inform everyone who read it that I have received the Holy Spirit.

Is there any disagreement with any of the verses I quoted in the context that I quoted them?

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe we have all heard the story of the Shepherd who after going to find the lost lamb who wandered off, then breaks it leg, and carries it until, it is healed, to teach the lamb not to wander and how committed the Shepherd is to Him.

This sounds like eternal security to me, since sheep cannot confess or in any way demonstrate repentance. The Good Shephard always goes after His sheep, when then wander off. And He brings them back regardless of their condition.

I wonder why this example is used, given your frequently expressed idea that no believer is eternally secure.

Well, I’m the one with four broken legs, that my gracious Lord has dealt with in this way, each time after repenting He has mercifully taken me back.

He carried me many times.

Just to be clear, is this an indication that you lost salvation 4 times, but re-gained salvation 4 times?

If so, how is salvation regained after losing it.

If not, what does it indicate?

I can honestly say that I would be OSAS, based on my experience, however after thoroughly studying the scriptures, It is no where to be found, which causes me to be even more thankful and greatful to our gracious and believed Lord.

How odd, since the example given clearly shows eternal security.

So now I'm even more curious about the "4 times". Was salvation lost each time, or what?

A brother, such as myself, who wanders from the truth, has returned to being a sinner in danger of eternal death, unless he turns back (repents).
JLB

OK, this sure seems that the "4 times" were 4 times losing salvation. So then, what is the method for regaining the salvation that you lost through sin??

But I'll just point out that Jesus Christ died for ALL of our sins ONCE. Heb 7-10. So, how was your salvation regained then?

Anyway, I'll also just point out that what Jesus said refutes the notion that salvation can be lost because those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

What He never said was "might not perish", "probably not perish", or ANY condition such as "as long as..." or "if..." attache to 'never perishing'.

 

[JLB]

This sounds like eternal security to me, since sheep cannot confess or in any way demonstrate repentance

Sometimes we hear things that we want to hear.

Just to be clear, is this an indication that you lost salvation 4 times, but re-gained salvation 4 times?

If a person becomes “lost”, are they still somehow “found”.


Maybe now is the time to define the biblical term “lost”.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


Lost Sheep:
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

Lost Coin:
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10


Prodigal Son
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

The reason being is much due to our old man, or nature we need to overcome.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I have posted this following link several times addressing the thought you present.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...but-i-need-prayers-anyway.73044/#post-1403469

Very true brother. Our old man wants to get back at all the hurt our enemies have caused us.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Matthew 7:14 "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Here's another one that is not really taken serious. It's common knowledge in the world that most people get into heaven and only a few bad seeds don't.

 

[Eugene]

The reason being is much due to our old man, or nature we need to overcome.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

If we had only this verse, it would seem that the believer would need to overcome his old man, or sinful nature. But we know that this is impossible, because our "will power" is seated in our sinful nature. We need a power source outside of our sinful nature.

And God has provided for that by giving every believer the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I emboldened part of you quote above I want to address. Where? Those present At Pentecost?
I'll attempt this once again to establish what I'm attempting to set forth from the word of God, and this time hopefully in a manner that doesn't offend you.
Certain disciples were asked by Paul, "Act 19:2 "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Are they SAVED here?, and have they yet received the Holy Ghost?)

First, the question was asked of 1st Century Gentile believers, who didn't immediately received the Spirit at the moment of faith, with Cornelius as an example.

Second, is this question to me a hint that I haven't yet received the Spirit?

How would I know if you had received the Holy Spirit? I asked a simple question as to the fact. You're the one making the statement that all believers is given the INDWELLING Holy Spirit. Can you give scripture verifying that?

 

[JLB]

Just as I pointed out. Recipients (I give them eternal life) and they shall never perish.

Just as the scripture points out, those who hear, and know, and follow Him will receive eternal life.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

• And I give them eternal life

And is the conjunction that ties the condition to the promise of eternal life.

First comes the life of being led by Him, “hear and follow”.

Then comes the giving of eternal life, which comes at the resurrection of life.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Those Christian’s who are led by the Spirit and live their life according to the Spirit, are those who do what is good and righteous, obeying the life of the Spirit.

Those Christian’s who live according to the flesh, and practice it’s works, who prefer to obey unrighteousness, will not inherit the kingdom of God, in which they will come forth in the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I emboldened part of you quote above I want to address. Where? Those present At Pentecost?
I'll attempt this once again to establish what I'm attempting to set forth from the word of God, and this time hopefully in a manner that doesn't offend you.
Certain disciples were asked by Paul, "Act 19:2 "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Are they SAVED here?, and have they yet received the Holy Ghost?)


How would I know if you had received the Holy Spirit? I asked a simple question as to the fact. You're the one making the statement that all believers is given the INDWELLING Holy Spirit. Can you give scripture verifying that?

Yes, I can. First, we know that when Gentiles initially bleieved in Christ, they did not immediately receive the Spirit, as noted in Acts 10 and when Paul found 12 disciples. in both examples, they ultimately did receive the Spirit.

Second, in Paul's epistle to the Galatian believers, written approx 49-55 AD, he asked this in ch 3:
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

So, by this time, the Spirit was received when one believed.

But, since there is disagreement, where does the NT teach WHEN one does finally receive the Holy Spirit, if not at faith in Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

Sometimes we hear things that we want to hear.



If a person becomes “lost”, are they still somehow “found”.


Maybe now is the time to define the biblical term “lost”.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


Lost Sheep:
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

Lost Coin:
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10


Prodigal Son
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32
JLB

Unfortunately my question was not answered. Dodged, perhaps.

Did you lose salvation those "4 times" or not? yes or no.

I'll just generalize my second question. If salvation can be lost, can it be regained? If so, how so? Please be specific.

I suppose the reason for dodging my question is that there are no verses anywhere in the Bible about regaining salvation. Nothing at all.