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Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

Drew

Member
With this admittedly provocative title, I want to expose the “dirty little secret†of so many evangelicals – the fact that they either ignore the Romans 2 teaching about a future justification by good works or, more commonly perhaps, they develop entirely implausible schemes about how, in in Romans 2, Paul is speaking about what is only a hypothetical possibility.

On the face of it, we have a clear and unambiguous assertion by Paul - the granting of eternal is based on good works:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Its funny. If you show this text to any 7th grader, they will clearly get Paul’s meaning – eternal life is given based on how you have lived, not what you believe. And yet so many evangelicals will deny ultimate justification by good works. What is their argument?

In the main it appears to be this: Paul cannot really mean what he has written here since, in Romans 3, he writes at length about the sinfulness of mankind - if man is so sinful, it is simply not possible for him to be saved by doing good works.

This is not a good argument. First, the fact that all have sinned does not, of course, mean that all must necessarily continue to sin. In fact, later in Romans (chapter 8), Paul makes it abundantly clear that the person with the Spirit can indeed win the victory over sin. So I am not sure how the “men cannot be saved by good works because we are hopeless sinners†argument really survives. It is clear that Paul understands that people can indeed escape the trap of Romans 3. So how does Romans 3 then trump Romans 2?

And there is another problem – people who do not believe that Paul means what he writes in Romans 2:6-7 (above) have no explanation as to this deep mystery: what was Paul thinking when he wrote Romans 2:6-7 - why would he tell us something that he is later going to undermine? This is a question that needs to be answered. Remember – Paul nowhere in the letter ever gives any kind of “I did not mean what I said in Romans 2:6-7" disclaimer.

Much more can be said, but I will stop here for now.
 
Here was my response in another thread:

Here's how I interpret Romans 2 in light of the rest of the scripture.
Yes those that seek after doing good, glory/honor and immortality to attain eternal life. But this doing good and seeking after God is all God's doing not ours. For instance this is similiar to the phrases found in the book of Jeremiah and Proverbs

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

On the other hand the scriptures also state:

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked,For they do not seek Your statutes.

Psalm 10:4
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;God is in none of his thoughts.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So how is it possible a wicked man such as myself comes faith/repentence in Christ?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Going back to Romans 2. The reason why we seek after doing good and seek after
honor/glory/immortality and attain eternal life as a result was because we were first declared an heir of salvation and God is drawing us. The decision that God would save us is not determined based upon our obedience, nor because I did this or that or because I'm more special in some fashion. It's based only upon God's will alone. Eternal life is not the result of obedience because none of our works are worthy.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
 
Drew said:
With this admittedly provocative title, I want to expose the “dirty little secret†of so many evangelicals – the fact that they either ignore the Romans 2 teaching about a future justification by good works or, more commonly perhaps, they develop entirely implausible schemes about how, in in Romans 2, Paul is speaking about what is only a hypothetical possibility.

On the face of it, we have a clear and unambiguous assertion by Paul - the granting of eternal is based on good works:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Its funny. If you show this text to any 7th grader, they will clearly get Paul’s meaning – eternal life is given based on how you have lived, not what you believe. And yet so many evangelicals will deny ultimate justification by good works. What is their argument?

In the main it appears to be this: Paul cannot really mean what he has written here since, in Romans 3, he writes at length about the sinfulness of mankind - if man is so sinful, it is simply not possible for him to be saved by doing good works.

This is not a good argument. First, the fact that all have sinned does not, of course, mean that all must necessarily continue to sin. In fact, later in Romans (chapter 8), Paul makes it abundantly clear that the person with the Spirit can indeed win the victory over sin. So I am not sure how the “men cannot be saved by good works because we are hopeless sinners†argument really survives. It is clear that Paul understands that people can indeed escape the trap of Romans 3. So how does Romans 3 then trump Romans 2?

And there is another problem – people who do not believe that Paul means what he writes in Romans 2:6-7 (above) have no explanation as to this deep mystery: what was Paul thinking when he wrote Romans 2:6-7 - why would he tell us something that he is later going to undermine? This is a question that needs to be answered. Remember – Paul nowhere in the letter ever gives any kind of “I did not mean what I said in Romans 2:6-7" disclaimer.

Much more can be said, but I will stop here for now.

Drew,

If I may speculate?

Perhaps the problem is with a confusion of the term "salvation".

In Romans 2, the Scriptures are speaking of "saved to eternal life", while elsewhere, Scriptures sometimes speak of salvation refering to a past event - the point in time where we accept Jesus as our Savior and are forgiven of sins in the waters of Baptism. The two points are NOT interchangeable, although Pauline thoughts PRESUME (not demand) that the past event will in time lead to the future event. We know later writings do NOT make this presumption, esp. 2 Peter, speaking of returning to the vomit of a past life of sin and losing that status and becoming worse than before being "saved" from sin, since faith alone saves no one - to heaven..

Regards
 
archangel_300 said:
But this doing good and seeking after God is all God's doing not ours. For instance this is similiar to the phrases found in the book of Jeremiah and Proverbs

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Where does the Bible citations you list tell us it is ALL God's doing? It appears there is some sense that man is doing the seeking here. We know that God instills the desire to seek Him out, but these Scriptures do not say that this seeking is uncontrollable or is irresistible.

archangel_300 said:
On the other hand the scriptures also state:

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked,For they do not seek Your statutes.

Naturally, the wicked do not seek God, and that is what Paul is refering to in Romans 3. Certainly, the WRITER of the Psalms he cites did not consider HIMSELF wicked. If you continue to read these Psalms, you will see that is clear. Numerous men and women are called "righteous" in the OT - because they DO seek out God. Those wicked, do not seek out God. Not a single one.

archangel_300 said:
Psalm 10:4
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;God is in none of his thoughts.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul often compares "natural" or "flesh" to the "spiritual attitude, as John compares the "world" to the Christian. Again, it is the same as the OT, different terms. There are those who seek out God, and there are those who do not. The former are righteous, led by God (but not irrestisbily) the later are not righteous, but are wicked, every single one of them.

archangel_300 said:
So how is it possible a wicked man such as myself comes faith/repentence in Christ?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

AGAIN, that is Paul's point in Romans 1-3. NO ONE can come to God ALONE. But it doesn't follow that God does ALL of the moving of the man. Since God desires ALL men to be saved - and all men are NOT saved, it follows that man DOES have free will, despite the grace we receive to choose God. At the end of the day, WE choose to follow, or not. If we follow, it is a work of God. If we don't, it is our refusal of God's calling.

In Romans 2, does Paul say that the saved pagan who does good deeds, that it is entirely the pagans's will? No, he says that he Spirit of God writes a law on that man's heart - and he becomes a spiritual Jew. The saved pagan who does good deeds does so because of God's grace and man's response to it. Without God's grace, man is in the Romans 1 situation.


archangel_300 said:
Going back to Romans 2. The reason why we seek after doing good and seek after
honor/glory/immortality and attain eternal life as a result was because we were first declared an heir of salvation and God is drawing us.

God draws ALL men, but all men do not respond.

All man's righteousness WITHOUT GOD is "filthy rags". It does NOT follow that ALL of man's righteousness IN GOD are filthy rags. Romans 2 already admits that the saved pagan HAS the mark of God upon his works. Isaiah's often-cited and misunderstood verse does not apply here...


Regards
 
There is no "dirty little secrete" among evangelicals in regards to Romans 2. Evangelicals address it all the time. I think your assuming way too much without looking at the facts of imputed righteousness.

Aside from scripture, which we can copy and past all day long, the gospels as a whole tell us that the foundation of our our salvation is in our faith in Christ. That Jesus Christ was God cloaked as man and lived a sin free life that we can not. Furthermore he willingly gave that life for us as a perfect sacrifice and had the power to take it back up again in the resurrection. Our faith in that is our salvation and nothing we do beyond that is grater in and of itself in that alone.

That does not mean we will not do good works, but it does mean that our good works will not take presidence over our faith in Christ as our salvation. Nothing you do good alone will earn you a place in haven without your first accepting Christ as your savior. Otherwise God would have just said, be good and do good. What would have been the point to come here; live a perfect life and be a perfect sacrifice for all mankind? If our deeds save us, and no man is sinless; if all have sin and all fall short of the glory of God, then what was the point of Christ? :shrug
 
francisdesales said:
Where does the Bible citations you list tell us it is ALL God's doing? It appears there is some sense that man is doing the seeking here. We know that God instills the desire to seek Him out, but these Scriptures do not say that this seeking is uncontrollable or is irresistible.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Can there be anyone who resists the will of God? According to John 6:37 there doesn't appear to be. Can there be a person whom the Father gives Christ that doesn't come to God?

francisdesales said:
Naturally, the wicked do not seek God, and that is what Paul is refering to in Romans 3. Certainly, the WRITER of the Psalms he cites did not consider HIMSELF wicked. If you continue to read these Psalms, you will see that is clear. Numerous men and women are called "righteous" in the OT - because they DO seek out God. Those wicked, do not seek out God. Not a single one.

Aren't we all wicked by nature?
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,And in sin my mother conceived me.

The righteous refers to those who have become born again. They are the righteous because their sins are remembered no more. It's not that they are righteous because of their own deeds, they became righteous because they are cloaked with the righteousness of Christ. But before they were cloaked with Christ's righteousness they were wicked as we all are. If some men were inherently righteous then there would be no need for a savior...

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.â€


francisdesales said:
AGAIN, that is Paul's point in Romans 1-3. NO ONE can come to God ALONE. But it doesn't follow that God does ALL of the moving of the man. Since God desires ALL men to be saved - and all men are NOT saved, it follows that man DOES have free will, despite the grace we receive to choose God. At the end of the day, WE choose to follow, or not. If we follow, it is a work of God. If we don't, it is our refusal of God's calling.

I don't think God desires every single individual to become saved.
How about those who never hear the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ? Let's face it... if God really wanted them saved they would have been exposed to the gospel and repented of their sins before they died. Also Romans 9 indicates that not every person is elected by God.

francisdesales said:
God draws ALL men, but all men do not respond.
All man's righteousness WITHOUT GOD is "filthy rags". It does NOT follow that ALL of man's righteousness IN GOD are filthy rags. Romans 2 already admits that the saved pagan HAS the mark of God upon his works. Isaiah's often-cited and misunderstood verse does not apply here...
Regards

Yes, there are none righteous... and we were all apart from God at one point in our lives. :)
 
archangel_300 said:
But this doing good and seeking after God is all God's doing not ours.
I am actually very sympathetic to this position, as should be clear from many of my posts - I have repeatedly asserted that the Holy Spirit is the driving engine behind the good works that ultimately justify.

So I would say we are in violent agreement.
 
God wants us all to be saved, if he did it by the way you say then we should have the bible preprogammed into us. we can hinder the lord in his work. if doubt look at the cities that the lord couldnt heal in, why they lacked faith and never asked him to heal and that they didnt want it!
 
I have read one book of NT Wright and the "new perspective on Paul." Wright focuses repeatedly on Romans 2:13. He reads Romans 8 in light of that one verse.

Evangelicals have long responded to his view on Romans 2. Anyone suggesting that Evangelicals have been silent in their refutation of Paul, or that there is some "dirty little secrete," are simply and profoundly ignorant of evangelical writings. I have noticed that NT Wright fails to address the exegesis of Evangelicals such as John Piper, DA Carson, and others. He generally misrepresents the evangelical response. Here is a youtube video of Piper misrepresenting Piper ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xFzdeyK4Zw ). I have the book of Piper that NT Wright refers to, and Piper mentions 2nd century Judaism, but never said to just ignore it. He disagrees with Pipers view of 2nd Temple Judaism). Why does NT Wright have to misrepresent Piper? Could it be that he cannot address the real arguments? The claim that evangelicals ignore any of NT Wrights arguments is simply a smoke screen. But of course all this is not the point. The issue is the exegesis of Romans 2, specifically concerning verse 13 and the context.

One of the major differences is that NT Wright fails to see the context as one which compares Judiasm, with the heathen unregenerate Gentiles. In fact right in verse 13, it refers not to justification by any works, but specifically the works of the Mosaic Law. Of course Judaism seeks justification by the Mosaic Law. God will impartially judge both unsaved Jew, and pagan Gentile on the basis of works.

The context is a contrast between unsaved hypocritical Jews, and pagan Gentiles. The Jews seek justification by the Law of Moses, the pagan Gentiles seek justification by their own works and become as verse 14 says... "a law unto themselves." The whole issue, is that if Jew or Gentile, God judges impartially. He his judgment when he condemns the Jew, he uses the Law of Moses. His judgment on the heathen Gentiles, he uses their own conscience and the Law written on their hearts.

Notice the beginning of the context. The context begins with the claim that a certain man (the Jew) is "inexcusable," and "condemned." Because God impartially judges both unbelieving Jew, and Pagan Gentile.

The error of NT Wright, is that he assumes that the context is about believers and unbelievers being judged in some future judgment. Certainly unbelievers will be judged and condemned in the future by their works, but believers are judged on the basis of Christs imputed works. Believers are not in view in verse 13, or in Chapter 2.

I am guessing I will be back soon.
 
jasoncran said:
God wants us all to be saved, if he did it by the way you say then we should have the bible preprogammed into us. we can hinder the lord in his work. if doubt look at the cities that the lord couldnt heal in, why they lacked faith and never asked him to heal and that they didnt want it!

Perhaps... but if anyone can explain Romans 9 so that it harmonizes with the rest of scripture I'd be glad to accept this view.
 
i will study on that, btw what you believe the jews (some) still believe you gentiles are. fuel for hell.

interesting.
 
Drew,

You have to let scripture interpret scripture. You seem to needle out little places here and there to support your liberal views, while ignoring the larger content of the scriptures.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There is absolutely no ambiguity there.

Romans 2:5-11
5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

He is speaking to saved people, I being one who believes that salvation can be lost see this as saying that the saved who do good will be rewarded, but if they do not obey the truth and live in unrighteousness (without ever repenting), they will lose their salvation.
 
mondar said:
The context is a contrast between unsaved hypocritical Jews, and pagan Gentiles. The Jews seek justification by the Law of Moses, the pagan Gentiles seek justification by their own works and become as verse 14 says... "a law unto themselves." The whole issue, is that if Jew or Gentile, God judges impartially. He his judgment when he condemns the Jew, he uses the Law of Moses. His judgment on the heathen Gentiles, he uses their own conscience and the Law written on their hearts.

Notice the beginning of the context. The context begins with the claim that a certain man (the Jew) is "inexcusable," and "condemned." Because God impartially judges both unbelieving Jew, and Pagan Gentile.

The error of NT Wright, is that he assumes that the context is about believers and unbelievers being judged in some future judgment. Certainly unbelievers will be judged and condemned in the future by their works, but believers are judged on the basis of Christs imputed works. Believers are not in view in verse 13, or in Chapter 2.

I am guessing I will be back soon.

Might be an interesting path...
mondar please enlighten us.

Are you saying Romans 2:7 is an impossibility?
 
archangel_300 said:
jasoncran said:
God wants us all to be saved, if he did it by the way you say then we should have the bible preprogammed into us. we can hinder the lord in his work. if doubt look at the cities that the lord couldnt heal in, why they lacked faith and never asked him to heal and that they didnt want it!

Perhaps... but if anyone can explain Romans 9 so that it harmonizes with the rest of scripture I'd be glad to accept this view.

Romans 9 is positively the most troubling chapter of scriptures in the whole bible for me. When I first read that, I mean really read it and understood it, I thought, I cannot serve a God like that.

However, the bible also says that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. So clearly, if he chose only certain people to be saved, then why would he desire everyone to be saved? It doesn't make sense.

1 TIM 2:3-4
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
Drew,

You have to let scripture interpret scripture. You seem to needle out little places here and there to support your liberal views, while ignoring the larger content of the scriptures.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There is absolutely no ambiguity there.

Romans 2:5-11
5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

He is speaking to saved people, I being one who believes that salvation can be lost see this as saying that the saved who do good will be rewarded, but if they do not obey the truth and live in unrighteousness (without ever repenting), they will lose their salvation.
 
faithtransforms said:
Drew,

You have to let scripture interpret scripture. You seem to needle out little places here and there to support your liberal views, while ignoring the larger content of the scriptures.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There is absolutely no ambiguity there.

Romans 2:5-11
5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

He is speaking to saved people, I being one who believes that salvation can be lost see this as saying that the saved who do good will be rewarded, but if they do not obey the truth and live in unrighteousness (without ever repenting), they will lose their salvation.

I don't know how this got posted twice...oops!
 
faithtransforms said:
archangel_300 said:
jasoncran said:
God wants us all to be saved, if he did it by the way you say then we should have the bible preprogammed into us. we can hinder the lord in his work. if doubt look at the cities that the lord couldnt heal in, why they lacked faith and never asked him to heal and that they didnt want it!

Perhaps... but if anyone can explain Romans 9 so that it harmonizes with the rest of scripture I'd be glad to accept this view.

Romans 9 is positively the most troubling chapter of scriptures in the whole bible for me. When I first read that, I mean really read it and understood it, I thought, I cannot serve a God like that.

However, the bible also says that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. So clearly, if he chose only certain people to be saved, then why would he desire everyone to be saved? It doesn't make sense.

1 TIM 2:3-4
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yes... all his elect to come to repentence. Christ can't return until all Israel crosses over the Red Sea and are safe. When the last of God's elect eventually comes into the kingdom and is sealed with the Holy Spirit you can be certain it will not be long until Christ returns and Judgment Day arrives.

At the cross there is a limited (not unlimited) amount of sin Christ bore...
Time will take its course and this will eventually run out.
 
i look at the atonement this he bore them( all sins) but we have to let the blood be poured on us. we must allow him to redeem us.
 
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