Imminency Doctrine

[RandyK]

This is somewhat controversial because Dispensational Theology has obtained popularity over the last 200 years, and favors both Imminency Doctrine and Pretribulationism. I do like the belief Dispensationalism has in Israel's future restoration. But I disagree with both Imminency Doctrine and Pretribulationism. So here are my views on this, subject, of course, to correction by those studied in the subject.

Respectfully, there's no Imminent Return of Christ "on any day" or "at any time!

What does it mean to "always be ready?" Does it mean that Jesus could come back at any time, that if we don't remain good Christians he may come back at an embarrassing moment?

Matthew 24.44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

I don't think so. I think we're always ready when 1) we get converted to Christ, 2) we live holy lives, and 3) we live obedient lives. But again, does this mean that Christ could return at any time, on any day?

I don't think so. When Jesus said this it was at a crossroads for Israel. They had not been living godly lives. Even though they had covered up their wickedness of heart with all kinds of religious displays they were soon to give up Jesus to death, to reject their Messiah, to reject God, to persecute Christians. They had covered up their wickedness with religiosity.

Matthew 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

So Jesus predicted that they were soon to fall to the Romans. The Romans carried standards with eagle images that they worshiped. It was like vultures gathering to Jerusalem, to lay siege against them and to destroy the temple.

The thing Israel was immediately to be concerned with preparing for, with being ready for, was a Roman invasion. The warning of judgment should elicit repentance in Israel. And that's how Jesus was calling Israel to prepare for this--by repenting of their sins. If judgment was not to be for their own sins, individually, they would have to repent, regardless of whether they could avert the judgment or avoid it personally.

This event was so imminent that Jesus said with certainty that this would befall the very generation of his Apostles. All the more reason for Jewish believers to remain ready, because judgment was soon to fall on the country, indiscriminately. Jesus told his followers to be ready to flee when the Roman Army comes, or when news of it arrives.

Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

This "abomination of desolation" was mentioned in the book of Daniel, ch 9, where we are told that the people (army) of a coming ruler would bring destruction to Jerusalem and to the temple. This was fulfilled in Jesus' generation, in 70 AD--about 40 years later.

Dan 9.26 The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary... And at the temple he will set up an abomination [a pagan army] that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it [Jerusalem].

So being "ready for Jesus' Coming" was actually preparing for a time of judgment for Israel. If his disciples wanted to be ready for the Kingdom of heaven, the litmus test was being ready for judgment. It determined whether a person would die under judgment or simply suffer as a righteous martyr or as collateral damage, a victim of "friendly fire." And getting ready was spurred on by the presence of gross national sins and by the signs of imminent Divine judgment.

Why do I say that Jesus cannot come back on any day? It is because we were told in Daniel that the Son of Man would return in the context of the coming of the Kingdom of God, when Antichrist would be destroyed (Dan 7). If he is coming on the last day of the present age, then he cannot come today!

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man [Christ], coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed....
25 He [Antichrist] will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time [3.5 years].
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever [when the Son of Man comes].

We do not have to be threatened with Jesus coming back on any day to keep ourselves living right. It is enough to know judgment could arrive at our door on any day--we could die on any day. We could have a car accident on any day. We could have a heart attack on any day.

We should prepare for such possibilities and for such eventualities simply by living a good life. We don't have to worry about a sudden appearance of Christ, because as long as we're alive we have a job he wants us to do. He won't come back until our jobs are done.

Phil 1.4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

That Christ *cannot* come back in a preliminary secret Coming, as Dispensationalists allege, I need only point out that Christians are always directed towards expectation of Jesus' Coming to establish his Kingdom, and not to some preliminary event. A Pretrib Rapture is never mentioned in the Scriptures. But here it is explicitly stated that Christ cannot come for his Church unless the Antichrist comes 1st. And Christ is to come for the express purpose of destroying the Antichrist--not before...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

[hawkman]

That Christ *cannot* come back in a preliminary secret Coming, as Dispensationalists allege, I need only point out that Christians are always directed towards expectation of Jesus' Coming to establish his Kingdom, and not to some preliminary event. A Pretrib Rapture is never mentioned in the Scriptures. But here it is explicitly stated that Christ cannot come for his Church unless the Antichrist comes 1st. And Christ is to come for the express purpose of destroying the Antichrist--not before...

But it does not say that , at least the way I read it . The antichrist "will be revealed " and the question would be revealed to who exactly .

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Speaking of falling away . I had a dream .

"Thousands Have Quit Following" Dream (2015)

"Thousands Have Quit Following!" Dream (2015) 18 Walking by the Sea of Galilee, Jesus saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. 19 Then Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” 20 They...

swf.community.forum

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Take heed that no man deceive you was the first thing Jesus said. During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The destruction of the Temple Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:2 happened in 70AD, but was once again judgement on Israel to repent of their idol worshiping and turn back to God.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Of that day or hour no ones knows, but Jesus gave us many signs to watch for, but the last and greatest sign right before we see Him coming with the clouds is found in the below scriptures.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What tribulation you might ask? That of the son of perdition being the last antichrist being the beast out of the earth who will cause all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death. Matthew 24:15; 2Thessalonians 2:1-4; Rev 13

Jesus will return for His own on the last day in God's timing, not ours. John 5:28-29; John 6:40.

We need to be prepared to be caught up to Him when He returns as the door of God's salvation will then be closed leaving no second chances. Rev 19.

 

[RandyK]

But it does not say that , at least the way I read it . The antichrist "will be revealed " and the question would be revealed to who exactly .

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Speaking of falling away . I had a dream .

"Thousands Have Quit Following" Dream (2015)

"Thousands Have Quit Following!" Dream (2015) 18 Walking by the Sea of Galilee, Jesus saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. 19 Then Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” 20 They...

swf.community.forum

Hi Brother, I'm just not seeing your argument here? As for your dream, I find it amazing! Your dream in 2015 is similar, though not the same as, a revelation I had when I was in 3rd grade elementary school. My school mates were playing a game in which opposing sides took each other prisoners until the side with the biggest army "won."

Our side was winning overwhelmingly. And yet, our "army" saw a continuous flow of defects going back to the losing side. The revelation in my mind was more a frightening realization that the majority of people wanted to go to the "popular" losing side, rather than legitimately "win!"

Yes, the people of this world are driven, by some satanic power, to want to join the way of independence from God. They want to be on the "losing side." We just have to let them go, and remain on the "winning side," even if our numbers are diminished.

As for your statement that what I described in 2 Thes 2 was not there, I'm confused. I actually quoted what was said, and I don't know any other way to characterize what was said other than to state what it said??

In my view Paul is saying that some Christians were claiming to be a kind of "2nd Coming Movement," a representation of Christ's Coming Kingdom as such. But Paul said that can't happen, that these people were liars, because before Christ comes back, and before his Kingdom comes, the Antichrist must be revealed 1st. That's just what it says!

But Paul goes on to refer to the "Man of Sin" as being one "doomed to destruction." In other words, Paul is referring back to Dan 7, where the Antichrist, the "Little Horn," is shown to be ruling for 3.5 years until the Son of Man descends from heaven to defeat him.

And so, Paul identifies Christ's Coming with the destruction of Antichrist. And he connects Christ's Coming with the rescue of the Church, with the assembling of God's People, ie the "Rapture."

So, in my view, it is transparent that Paul is arguing Christ cannot come for his Church unless that Coming is associated with Antichrist's destruction. That is just how I read it.

I'm confused how you read it, or how it can be read in any other way, though I know there are other ways the Pretribulationists see it? Am I to assume that you're a Pretribulationist?

 

[RandyK]

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Take heed that no man deceive you was the first thing Jesus said. During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The destruction of the Temple Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:2 happened in 70AD, but was once again judgement on Israel to repent of their idol worshiping and turn back to God.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Of that day or hour no ones knows, but Jesus gave us many signs to watch for, but the last and greatest sign right before we see Him coming with the clouds is found in the below scriptures.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What tribulation you might ask? That of the son of perdition being the last antichrist being the beast out of the earth who will cause all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death. Matthew 24:15; 2Thessalonians 2:1-4; Rev 13

Jesus will return for His own on the last day in God's timing, not ours. John 5:28-29; John 6:40.

We need to be prepared to be caught up to Him when He returns as the door of God's salvation will then be closed leaving no second chances. Rev 19.

Several points here, and I in no way are challenging anything you're saying here as a whole--I don't know your eschatology.

1) Jesus suggested the Jewish People, including his Disciples, would largely be ignorant of the time of his Return. He would come at a time they "do not expect." Quite frankly, the Jewish People in that time, including the Disciples, had no clue when Jesus would Return or when Messiah would Return. This confusion about his return was clear in the question Jesus' Disciples asked him about it. And it was even clearer in the Jewish people as a whole who did not even recognize who Jesus was!

2) Jesus indicated there would be misrepresentations of his Coming. His Coming would actually take place as an apocalyptic change from heaven, and not by some fake earthly movement appearing as if it is a messianic movement. The true sign of his Coming would be a "descent from heaven," to destroy the Antichrist.

3) The Great Tribulation Jesus described was part of a discourse given to the Jewish People while still under the Law. He indicated that the Jewish People would remain blind in the coming NT era, and be "lost" until the return of Messiah. It would be a "punishment," in his own words, and not the Reign of Antichrist as many are saying today. I'm not against referring to the Reign of Antichrist as the "Tribulation" as long as we are defining our terms. The "Great Tribulation," as Jesus used the term, referred to an age-long Jewish "punishment," that only began in 70 AD.

These are just my beliefs, and not intended to be "nasty." I just need to get them out there so the background for my statements can be understood. I've been studying these things for a very long time, and have held to numerous conflicting positions. These are my current views....

 

[hawkman]

In my view Paul is saying that some Christians were claiming to be a kind of "2nd Coming Movement," a representation of Christ's Coming Kingdom as such. But Paul said that can't happen, that these people were liars, because before Christ comes back, and before his Kingdom comes, the Antichrist must be revealed 1st. That's just what it says!

Are we not servants in Christ's Kingdom now ?

As for your statement that what I described in 2 Thes 2 was not there, I'm confused. I actually quoted what was said, and I don't know any other way to characterize what was said other than to state what it said??

What I see is a revealing to a few and it could be possible that the revealing has already taken place . I am not talking about an antichrist coming out party .

Jesus's birth was revealed to a few .


The pretrib rapture can happen anytime .

 

[RandyK]

Are we not servants in Christ's Kingdom now ?

Yes, we're in Christ's Kingdom now, being represented by Jesus in heaven on the right hand of the Father. However, I don't believe we're yet in the *escahtological Kingdom.*

What I see is a revealing to a few and it could be possible that the revealing has already taken place . I am not talking about an antichrist coming out party .

Okay, I got it. Your view, but I have it.

My own view is that the Antichrist will actually have a "coming out party" of sorts. He won't just say, "Hi, I'm the Antichrist." But you know what I mean? He will declare his imperial power on earth--an exclusive superpower. Nobody then will be able to challenge him.

It will start when he takes down 3 European countries by removing their leaders. And he will then join an alliance with 7 other countries and their leaders, presiding over them all as supreme leader, or emperor.

But the emphasis I was making was not just on his "revelation." Equally important is his "destruction." His revelation is emphasized by Paul because it will be a deception that we need to expose on behalf of those who we don't want deceived.

His destruction is emphasized by Paul because that is the precise point at which Christ comes to deliver the saints from their persecutions. That is mentioned in the 1st chapter of 2 Thessalonians.
1.6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

Jesus's birth was revealed to a few .
The pretrib rapture can happen anytime .

Okay, that's your view. My view is that we need to be ready for the Kingdom at all times, not that we should expect that Christ can return at any time.

The point is made that people will not be expecting him when he comes--not that he could come at any time. That is, the world has a mind-set that things are continuing, as always.

And even though Christians are fairly aware that things are getting worse--the world and Christian Civilization is eroding in morals and spiritual values, we don't always expect him either. We can be seduced by the world into thinking things are not "that bad," that the signs of judgment all around us is "just nature," and "this is an age of Grace."

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I don't share my views to cause unhappiness or division in the Church. I've been in Pretrib Rapture churches for decades, and I've never disturbed a gathering of my church by proclaming views inconsanant with AoG teaching (my denomination).

 

[RandyK]

Hawkman, I have a former pastor and friend on Facebook who is Pre-Wrath, despite the fact we are Assemblies of God. And I've talked to our superintendant about having a diverse opinion on these kinds of matters.

His response is that he doesn't agree with all points in all matters either. Another former pastor also said that he doesn't agree with all points in all matters either.

This former pastor and his wife, who is also a pastor, are firm Pretribbers, but know I'm Postrib. They said they would discuss our differences, but would not follow up, in person, by email, or otherwise.

Many years ago I met with an apparent "expert" at Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, where Chuck Smith was pastor, to discuss the Pretrib/Postrib matter. He would not go into details when he learned I didn't have enough background or learning in the subject (late 70s).

Smith said by letter he didn't want me to attend his church because of our disagreement. Ralph Wilkerson, of Melodyland Christian Center, a Pretribber, welcomed me to his church despite his position. So there are different attitudes about this subject--sometimes not particularly "spiritual."

Our present pastor met with me on the subject, and said he was fine with me holding a different opinion, but said that as an AoG pastor he must hold to the Pretrib position. He would not, however, argue the point with me, remaining friendly in all other ways.

He preached this last Sunday on the non-negotiable doctrines of the Faith, and he specifically mentioned his belief in the Imminent Return of Christ "on any day." And this is why I post my own beliefs because I'm not allowed to state my beliefs anywhere else, except outside of the church.

I will give you this much, that if I truly believed in the Imminency Doctrine that "Christ can come back at any moment" I would be Pretribulationist. I would have to be! ;)

Take care......

 

[JLB]

If he is coming on the last day of the present age, then he cannot come today!

So true.

 

[JLB]

Hawkman, I have a former pastor and friend on Facebook who is Pre-Wrath, despite the fact we are Assemblies of God. And I've talked to our superintendant about having a diverse opinion on these kinds of matters.

His response is that he doesn't agree with all points in all matters either. Another former pastor also said that he doesn't agree with all points in all matters either.

This former pastor and his wife, who is also a pastor, are firm Pretribbers, but know I'm Postrib. They said they would discuss our differences, but would not follow up, in person, by email, or otherwise.

Many years ago I met with an apparent "expert" at Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, where Chuck Smith was pastor, to discuss the Pretrib/Postrib matter. He would not go into details when he learned I didn't have enough background or learning in the subject (late 70s).

Smith said by letter he didn't want me to attend his church because of our disagreement. Ralph Wilkerson, of Melodyland Christian Center, a Pretribber, welcomed me to his church despite his position. So there are different attitudes about this subject--sometimes not particularly "spiritual."

Our present pastor met with me on the subject, and said he was fine with me holding a different opinion, but said that as an AoG pastor he must hold to the Pretrib position. He would not, however, argue the point with me, remaining friendly in all other ways.

He preached this last Sunday on the non-negotiable doctrines of the Faith, and he specifically mentioned his belief in the Imminent Return of Christ "on any day." And this is why I post my own beliefs because I'm not allowed to state my beliefs anywhere else, except outside of the church.

I will give you this much, that if I truly believed in the Imminency Doctrine that "Christ can come back at any moment" I would be Pretribulationist. I would have to be! ;)

Take care......

One of the clearest and easiest points to understand about this topic is… The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

This is what Jesus taught and what Paul wrote to the church.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The rapture and resurrection happen at the second coming of Jesus Christ, on the last day.


There are three main things that occur at the coming of the LORD.

In order:

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. The rapture.
3. The destruction of the antichrist.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

[hawkman]

Many years ago I met with an apparent "expert" at Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, where Chuck Smith was pastor, to discuss the Pretrib/Postrib matter. He would not go into details when he learned I didn't have enough background or learning in the subject (late 70s).

That is sad .
One thing about me is we have non-Christians wanting to discuss fine points of Revelation on this forum or at least use to , I would not engage with them , no thanks .

Smith said by letter he didn't want me to attend his church because of our disagreement. Ralph Wilkerson, of Melodyland Christian Center, a Pretribber, welcomed me to his church despite his position. So there are different attitudes about this subject--sometimes not particularly "spiritual."

Wow .

Read at this link below for a laugh .

I missed It !?! True story .

One evening I was home alone my wife still at work and my pastor came by and visited a few minutes . About ten minutes after my pastor left I was in my living room and heard the most beautiful hallelujah chorus ! I could not locate the source of the chorus and thought , " It's The Rapture ...

christianforums.net

 

[RandyK]

One of the clearest and easiest points to understand about this topic is… The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

This is what Jesus taught and what Paul wrote to the church.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The rapture and resurrection happen at the second coming of Jesus Christ, on the last day.


There are three main things that occur at the coming of the LORD.

In order:

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. The rapture.
3. The destruction of the antichrist.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

I suppose it's the "order" that is debated? ;)

 

[jasonc]

What if one means amil?

 

[JLB]

I suppose it's the "order" that is debated? ;)

I wanted to show mainly that the resurrection and rapture are one event that takes place at His coming.

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

So we see the resurrection of the dead in Christ is first.

• And the dead in Christ will rise first.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
At this point we see the body of Christ caught up safely with the LORD as He descends down to Jerusalem to remove the wicked that has surrounded her, and to take His place on Hs throne to rule as King over the earth. The church is caught up together with Him in the clouds to be with the LORD in the air and to remain with Him, even as He pours out Judgement upon the wicked.
So the church is caught up first, then the destruction of the wicked commences.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4


This is how I see the order.


Concerning imminency, we see that the Day of the LORD will not come as a thief in the night for the church that is watching; watch for the signs He gave.

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[RandyK]

What if one means amil?

For most of Christian history Amil has been the standard position. Premil started early, and that's why some believe it is the position of the Apostle John.

It is thought that Amil succeeded Premil primarily because the idea of a Millennial period of Jewish Salvation never materialized. The Jews were intransigent over a period of centuries, and they remain intransigent today.

In recent centuries, Premil has enjoyed a Renaissance, perhaps because of the recognition that the Jewish People weren't going away, and were pursuing Zionist ambitions. Dispensationalism has been a catalyst in this regard, although it started prior to Zionism.

Dispensationalism got its start due to the influence of a Catholic priest, Lucanza, whose book inspired Edward Irving later on--Irving didn't know it was a Catholic influence. Manuel Lacunza was interested, like Ribera before him, in removing the Protestant claim that the Pope was the Antichrist. And so, he argued that Antichristian prophecy remained future.

Irving therefore picked up "Futurism" from Lacunza, and Darby at the same time as Irving also picked up on this "Futurism." It was Darby who is credited with Dispensationalism whose unique brand of Futurism has been very popular across the Christian world.

Thus, Futurism was reborn in modern times. Although I accept the belief that Israel will enjoy a Millennial recovery, there are other aspects of Dispensationalism that I do not accept.

Amil thus has a long and storied history, and should be treated appropriately. But so does Premil.

 

[jasonc]

For most of Christian history Amil has been the standard position. Premil started early, and that's why some believe it is the position of the Apostle John.

It is thought that Amil succeeded Premil primarily because the idea of a Millennial period of Jewish Salvation never materialized. The Jews were intransigent over a period of centuries, and they remain intransigent today.

In recent centuries, Premil has enjoyed a Renaissance, perhaps because of the recognition that the Jewish People weren't going away, and were pursuing Zionist ambitions. Dispensationalism has been a catalyst in this regard, although it started prior to Zionism.

Dispensationalism got its start due to the influence of a Catholic priest, Lucanza, whose book inspired Edward Irving later on--Irving didn't know it was a Catholic influence. Manuel Lacunza was interested, like Ribera before him, in removing the Protestant claim that the Pope was the Antichrist. And so, he argued that Antichristian prophecy remained future.

Irving therefore picked up "Futurism" from Lacunza, and Darby at the same time as Irving also picked up on this "Futurism." It was Darby who is credited with Dispensationalism whose unique brand of Futurism has been very popular across the Christian world.

Thus, Futurism was reborn in modern times. Although I accept the belief that Israel will enjoy a Millennial recovery, there are other aspects of Dispensationalism that I do not accept.

Amil thus has a long and storied history, and should be treated appropriately. But so does Premil.

I know the history of this but modern chialism isn't the same as historical.

Most premil have a seven year trib.
Historical that wasn't the case .

I was posting about some of those pastors you mentioned on amil ,I hate to see what they would say.

 

[RandyK]

I know the history of this but modern chialism isn't the same as historical.

Most premil have a seven year trib.
Historical that wasn't the case .

I was posting about some of those pastors you mentioned on amil ,I hate to see what they would say.

Most Dispensationalist pastors including my own are Dispensational. They are Premil and hold to a 7 year Tribulation. I hold to only a 3.5 year Tribulation. I agree there are differences....

 

[for_his_glory]

Several points here, and I in no way are challenging anything you're saying here as a whole--I don't know your eschatology.

1) Jesus suggested the Jewish People, including his Disciples, would largely be ignorant of the time of his Return. He would come at a time they "do not expect." Quite frankly, the Jewish People in that time, including the Disciples, had no clue when Jesus would Return or when Messiah would Return. This confusion about his return was clear in the question Jesus' Disciples asked him about it. And it was even clearer in the Jewish people as a whole who did not even recognize who Jesus was!

2) Jesus indicated there would be misrepresentations of his Coming. His Coming would actually take place as an apocalyptic change from heaven, and not by some fake earthly movement appearing as if it is a messianic movement. The true sign of his Coming would be a "descent from heaven," to destroy the Antichrist.

3) The Great Tribulation Jesus described was part of a discourse given to the Jewish People while still under the Law. He indicated that the Jewish People would remain blind in the coming NT era, and be "lost" until the return of Messiah. It would be a "punishment," in his own words, and not the Reign of Antichrist as many are saying today. I'm not against referring to the Reign of Antichrist as the "Tribulation" as long as we are defining our terms. The "Great Tribulation," as Jesus used the term, referred to an age-long Jewish "punishment," that only began in 70 AD.

These are just my beliefs, and not intended to be "nasty." I just need to get them out there so the background for my statements can be understood. I've been studying these things for a very long time, and have held to numerous conflicting positions. These are my current views....

You have every right to believe how you want, but it would help if you used scripture to support that of what you believe as it makes for a better discussion. I've been intensely studying the book of Revelation for over 40 years now cross referencing OT with NT and the history behind all four Empires, but when I present my studies you will always find that I include a lot of scriptures plus the history, especially in dates and time lines so others can go back and take their time studying what I present if they are interested. It's only a fool who just takes the words of others as I use to, but learned not to do so as I have been mislead many a time, especially when I had very little understanding and just took what others said to be true.

Just food for thought from your sister in Christ

 

[RandyK]

You have every right to believe how you want, but it would help if you used scripture to support that of what you believe as it makes for a better discussion. I've been intensely studying the book of Revelation for over 40 years now cross referencing OT with NT and the history behind all four Empires, but when I present my studies you will always find that I include a lot of scriptures plus the history, especially in dates and time lines so others can go back and take their time studying what I present if they are interested. It's only a fool who just takes the words of others as I use to, but learned not to do so as I have been mislead many a time, especially when I had very little understanding and just took what others said to be true.

Just food for thought from your sister in Christ

I get this pretty regularly, so there must be something to it. However, if you follow me for any length of time, you probably get more Scripture than you expected, and it will probably be repeated more often than you wish. ;)

That being said, I agree with you--only fools take one's word for anything. People have biases, and though they may be convinced of something in their own mind, it's best to present a broad picture rather than just something coming out of one's own corner.

I don't always provide Scriptures because I assume, perhaps falsely, that those I speak to are knowledgeable of these things and recognizze by the words I use what verses I refer to. But all you have to do is ask--you don't have to ask me to make a life-style change--just ask on the occasion you want more Scriptures.

I have been studying these things for at least as long as you. But there are different ways of studying these things. One can read a lot of books on the particular position that he or she leans towards. One can study and learn all of the history of the various ideas. One can study biblical language, to know that things are being read correctly. Etc. etc.

How long we've been studying matters, but just reading the Bible only over and over again won't always penetrate the heart of a matter if there is fixed in your mind someone else's idea about what they mean. The Bible is a very old book with a dated culture, and it requires more than a surface reading to understand what is really being said.

So I'll go back over what I said to try to figure out what you think didn't have an asssumed Scriptural backdrop to it. But believe me--I don't mind you asking for Scriptural references. I normally state my position, and then prepare to back it up when asked for further info. I'm very happy if someone asks because it means that we're not just arguing past each other, but really trying to understand if there is a basis for one's position.

Thank you very much!

 

[RandyK]

You have every right to believe how you want, but it would help if you used scripture to support that of what you believe as it makes for a better discussion.

So FHG, here is an attempt at explaining the Scriptural backdrop to my assertions on the following points....

1) Jesus suggested the Jewish People, including his Disciples, would largely be ignorant of the time of his Return. He would come at a time they "do not expect." Quite frankly, the Jewish People in that time, including the Disciples, had no clue when Jesus would Return or when Messiah would Return. This confusion about his return was clear in the question Jesus' Disciples asked him about it. And it was even clearer in the Jewish people as a whole who did not even recognize who Jesus was!

Many Imminency advocates believe Jesus taught he could come "at any moment" because of the following verse...

Matt 24.44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Some aspects of this I find no need to explain Scripturally. I can't argue what is *not* said! Jesus never said that he could come "on any day, at any time." If he even implied this, he never said at what point this any-moment occurrence could take place--just after he said it??

So Jesus is here speaking of *expectations*--not a timing scheme in which he could Return literally at any moment. People are not of a mind-set in which they perceive the world prophetically.

And so, the Christian must get away from the secular mind-set and recognize that the world's outlook is characterized by a lack of expectation with respect of divine judgment and a coming kingdom of righteousness.

This is very different from Jesus actually saying that at some point he can come "on any day." There are no verses for this because quite frankly, Jesus never said this.

2) Jesus indicated there would be misrepresentations of his Coming. His Coming would actually take place as an apocalyptic change from heaven, and not by some fake earthly movement appearing as if it is a messianic movement. The true sign of his Coming would be a "descent from heaven," to destroy the Antichrist.

There are at least 2 major Scriptural portions I would base these statements on. One, Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse that there would be false Christs and false prophets, preceding the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD).

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

From my perspective, Jesus is saying that the sign of his Coming would be a heavenly descent, just as Daniel foresaw the coming of the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven (Dan 7.13). This passage is speaking of the coming of the Kingdom of God to replace the Kingdom of Antichrist.

So this Coming of Messiah would be a *judgment,* which of course was more closely fixed in the mind of Jesus' listeners. The temple in Jerusalem was about to fall, and the people of Israel would be exiled for the coming age. Any notion of "saintly Jews" representing God's Kingdom on earth was verboten, unrealistic, and false.

So Jesus is saying that his Disciples should not be fooled by some earthly movement, appearing as a Christ or as a prophet, declaring that the Kingdom has come. That's because Christ's Kingdom will come to destroy corrupt earthly kingdoms that are at odds with Christ's Kingdom. We need to discern the false Christs of our time, just as the Apostle John said, "As you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so already there are many antichrists." (1 John)

The 2nd passage illustrates the above in 2 Thes 2, where Paul warned that Christians had been falsely heralding the coming of Christ and his Kingdom. Like many cults in our own day these Christians declared their own movement representative of Christ's Coming Kingdom. See the JWs, for example.

3) The Great Tribulation Jesus described was part of a discourse given to the Jewish People while still under the Law. He indicated that the Jewish People would remain blind in the coming NT era, and be "lost" until the return of Messiah. It would be a "punishment," in his own words, and not the Reign of Antichrist as many are saying today. I'm not against referring to the Reign of Antichrist as the "Tribulation" as long as we are defining our terms. The "Great Tribulation," as Jesus used the term, referred to an age-long Jewish "punishment," that only began in 70 AD.

The "Great Tribulation" is often declared by Dispensationalists to be the Reign of Antichrist, which will be, they say, so terrible that Christians won't want to be here, and will want to have been evacuated from the earth, not suffering Gods' "terrible wrath." But Jesus' definition of the "Great Tribulation" is here in the Olivet Discourse....

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

As you can see, Jesus saw the "Great Tribulation" as a prophecy given specifically for the Jewish People, for Israel. It was to be a "Jewish Punishment" to put off final world judgment until people from other nations are given equal opportunity to accept Christ.

That being said, I recognize that the name "Great Tribulation" is now common vocabulary for the "Reign of Antichrist," and so I will use the term as such, for the purpose of communication. But it began as a Jewish Prophecy, though conceptually the ideas contained in this Discourse can be expanded to instruct Christians in all nations.

For example, the Jews who chose to follow Jesus were taught to expect persecution by their own unbelieving Jewish brethren. And they were to expect judgment from God coming down upon a backslidden and apostate Jewish society.

In the same way, Christians who follow Jesus today, who live in former Christian countries, can expect God to bring a certain amount of judgment down upon their countries. And they can also expect opposition from the backslidden Christian population or even from pagans within their society.

I hope some of this helps you to understand the Scriptural background to some of my points. I've been sharing this for so long I sometimes fail to see that I haven't covered these things on this particular forum.