Imminency Doctrine

[for_his_glory]

RandyK

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I put this in red letter as Jesus spoke these words, but yet man has been predicting the return of Christ ever since He ascended up to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. To many "ism's" as man follows man, but reject the truth that Jesus already spoke.

I agree, Jesus never said nor implied that he could come on any day, at any time as only the Father knows the day and the hour. We can see that clearly in Matthew 24:36. Jesus also said that it would be immediately after the tribulation of those days by the description He gave us to watch for in Matthew 24:29-31 and when we are then caught up to meet Him in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Jesus will be coming in judgement as once we are safely caught up with Christ in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, He only has to speak the words as He takes the beast and false prophet (son of perdition) alive and cast them into the lake of fire. All those political leaders from every nation on every continent that followed after the beast will be slain by the words Jesus speaks as what we read in Rev 19 is all done by Christ being in the air where we are yet with Him before He plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle against Satan casting him into the lake of fire and all those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life.

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[hawkman]

But John says ALREADY there are MANY antichrists AMONG us EVEN NOW..

That is what it says .

Antichrist has been around since the very beginnings,, Cain murdered Able = Cain was antichrist, Eve tempted and feel = she became antichrist,,

Antichrist before there was a Christ on earth , that is a different thought .

Antichrist is anything/person/org set against the Kingdom of Yeshua.
which is pretty much everything today,, all is polluted w the spirit of antichrist to some degree.

Satan is here from the beginning .

Some old old protestant doctrines have to go away.
Such as
**when THE antichrist will come***

Did you notice the verse you quoted from me had the words "son of perdition " ?

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

 

[RandyK]

Hi Randy
Its been some time since last posted, stay away for some time,, due to my many warnings from the mods,, I must stay nice or else...
anyway,, I am glad I decided to take a look here. I like your above posts and answers alottt of Q's I had dealing with these scriptures.
You and I have alottt in common, but also differences.
I am really surprised that someone understands these scriptures.....But again I know we would also have some differences.
Spot on about Yeshua speaking of HIS GENERATION,, that the fall of Jerusalem was near, just 40 yrs away.
and also the last final trib is in fact the 3.5 yrs when Jerusalem will be INVADED by the gentiles and OVER RUN by these hordes,,and that this last trib would be unlike (yet very similiar) to all the others,
Now why is this so?? UNLIKE all previous others,,, except in Europe during WW2/Hitlerism,, which we know was a great great great trib,, But that trib was NOT in the land of Israel,, On foreign soil. This final trib concerns the great Holy Land of Isreal,, a land now polluted. Witness Telaviv.
Also you very accurately note the comming of Yeshua has been COMPLETELY TOTALLY misunderstood, corrupted by so many protestant big fat mouths..
You point out the so called 2nd comming has nothing to do with a SINGLE DAY event,, Has to do with the fall of this great antichrist beast system that we are suffering in,,,and the establishment of Yeshua's Holy MILLENNIAL Kingdom. so this **2nd comming** isa longgggg epochal event.
Many other scriptures you spot on have a incredible understanding.

I am surprised you are still within a church group,, Pentacostal at that.
YOu did mention you and pastor are not in agreement on pretrib etc etc.
with most groups if one does not dance to the assembly doctrines,, = Sorry take your OWN ideas elsewhere.
Brother
Paul

Thank you for the compliments, Paul. I'm having a busy day today, so I'll probably have to get back with you. Like you, I've been reprimanded, sometimes deserved but most often not. Misunderstandings are legion when we're online, and not communicating face to face.

The important thing is to *try!* I can get snarky in a heartbeat--try to be gracious. Re-read what you wrote before posting because it's amazing how much "extramural commentary" we add that we don't need to insert that will clearly offend the other person! ;)

I will assume that you've been given worthy things to say from the Lord. Don't destroy the opportunity to speak by inciting things, even unintentionallly. Preserve your platform. The worst platforms may be a good place for your message!

The people here have been nice so far to me, and I'm a bit surprised. Usually I get knocked when I 1st appear--not later, when they've come to somewhat know me.

I do have a "red line." I quit one group that I discovered was being run by a man transitioning into a woman--the Christians there completely defended the moderator! I left.

One place I'm on now doesn't like saying negative things about Catholics or any group that wants to be "left alone." I try to accommodate them the best I can. Oddly, many of these groups who don't want to be "bad-mouthed" simply want to be left alone, unimpeded, to criticize other groups themselves!

Some who start threads want to completely control what can go into that thread. They threaten to shut down anything they consider "out of bounds." ;)

Of course, challenging a moderator's performance is out of bounds for good reason. There has to be moderation that is not allowed to be disrespected. On this forum I see moderators fully engaged and able to take the heat. That is admirable. I don't know what your issues were?

Another group I recently left simply wouldn't let me discuss the Trinity. I do have an unusual approach, but it's been part of my personal history, and I need to be able to discuss it, simply because it had bothered me many years ago. It's part of my repertoir. ;)

I'm glad we share some common points in our eschatology, and would be happy to discuss the points where we disagree. Later....

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is somewhat controversial because Dispensational Theology has obtained popularity over the last 200 years, and favors both Imminency Doctrine and Pretribulationism. I do like the belief Dispensationalism has in Israel's future restoration. But I disagree with both Imminency Doctrine and Pretribulationism. So here are my views on this, subject, of course, to correction by those studied in the subject.

Respectfully, there's no Imminent Return of Christ "on any day" or "at any time!

What does it mean to "always be ready?" Does it mean that Jesus could come back at any time, that if we don't remain good Christians he may come back at an embarrassing moment?

Matthew 24.44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

I don't think so. I think we're always ready when 1) we get converted to Christ, 2) we live holy lives, and 3) we live obedient lives. But again, does this mean that Christ could return at any time, on any day?

I don't think so. When Jesus said this it was at a crossroads for Israel. They had not been living godly lives. Even though they had covered up their wickedness of heart with all kinds of religious displays they were soon to give up Jesus to death, to reject their Messiah, to reject God, to persecute Christians. They had covered up their wickedness with religiosity.

Matthew 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

So Jesus predicted that they were soon to fall to the Romans. The Romans carried standards with eagle images that they worshiped. It was like vultures gathering to Jerusalem, to lay siege against them and to destroy the temple.

The thing Israel was immediately to be concerned with preparing for, with being ready for, was a Roman invasion. The warning of judgment should elicit repentance in Israel. And that's how Jesus was calling Israel to prepare for this--by repenting of their sins. If judgment was not to be for their own sins, individually, they would have to repent, regardless of whether they could avert the judgment or avoid it personally.

This event was so imminent that Jesus said with certainty that this would befall the very generation of his Apostles. All the more reason for Jewish believers to remain ready, because judgment was soon to fall on the country, indiscriminately. Jesus told his followers to be ready to flee when the Roman Army comes, or when news of it arrives.

Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

This "abomination of desolation" was mentioned in the book of Daniel, ch 9, where we are told that the people (army) of a coming ruler would bring destruction to Jerusalem and to the temple. This was fulfilled in Jesus' generation, in 70 AD--about 40 years later.

Dan 9.26 The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary... And at the temple he will set up an abomination [a pagan army] that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on it [Jerusalem].

So being "ready for Jesus' Coming" was actually preparing for a time of judgment for Israel. If his disciples wanted to be ready for the Kingdom of heaven, the litmus test was being ready for judgment. It determined whether a person would die under judgment or simply suffer as a righteous martyr or as collateral damage, a victim of "friendly fire." And getting ready was spurred on by the presence of gross national sins and by the signs of imminent Divine judgment.

Why do I say that Jesus cannot come back on any day? It is because we were told in Daniel that the Son of Man would return in the context of the coming of the Kingdom of God, when Antichrist would be destroyed (Dan 7). If he is coming on the last day of the present age, then he cannot come today!

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man [Christ], coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed....
25 He [Antichrist] will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time [3.5 years].
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever [when the Son of Man comes].

We do not have to be threatened with Jesus coming back on any day to keep ourselves living right. It is enough to know judgment could arrive at our door on any day--we could die on any day. We could have a car accident on any day. We could have a heart attack on any day.

We should prepare for such possibilities and for such eventualities simply by living a good life. We don't have to worry about a sudden appearance of Christ, because as long as we're alive we have a job he wants us to do. He won't come back until our jobs are done.

Phil 1.4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

That Christ *cannot* come back in a preliminary secret Coming, as Dispensationalists allege, I need only point out that Christians are always directed towards expectation of Jesus' Coming to establish his Kingdom, and not to some preliminary event. A Pretrib Rapture is never mentioned in the Scriptures. But here it is explicitly stated that Christ cannot come for his Church unless the Antichrist comes 1st. And Christ is to come for the express purpose of destroying the Antichrist--not before...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I don't agree with all your uses, Randy, but I certainly agree with your premise. I have not believed in imminency doctrine like ever I don't think. I am too aware of the governmental and political climate that will have to exist on earth first, and we are nowhere close to it yet. Unless things speed up tremendously, almost supernaturally, we will not see the return anytime in the next 50 years, although I refrain from saying it very often publicly because I think the Lord uses imminency notions to draw people to Him, thinking the time is short.

Lord willing we could discuss the various passages you used some day.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[RandyK]

I don't agree with all your uses, Randy, but I certainly agree with your premise. ...
Lord willing we could discuss the various passages you used some day.

Absolutely. I appreciate your tolerance of different views. It is through forums like this one that I've altered my views over time. The whole reason I entered into discussion forums was to test my views on other believers--not just to try to mininster the word of God to others.

My own willingness to learn has paid off, I think, because for many years my eschatology was incongruent and lacking in cohesion. I'm pretty satisfied with where I've landed, and am prepared to defend it, but I'm sure there's things I still need to be corrected on. After all, it's my interest to promote God's truth--not *my truth!* ;)

Have a blessed day (as they say in the South)!

 

[RandyK]

Yes Randy
as I mentioned in other posts (and btw you have a personal message))
You certianly have some eagle eye insights into some difficult passages,,,, I need to reck these insights,, lest I get booted from this site and not able to access the board..
Remember the bible is FULLL of NOT contradictions,, but what we call paradoxes.
FULL, For every verse I can givea counter verse,
so about topic. IMMINANT appearing
What does Yeshua tells us
Do NOT worry about tomorrow, today has enough to be CONCERNED about..
Thus why do the evangelicals go around say,,**its any day now,, the rapture is soon, Christ is commming back,,,, the 7 yr trib is around the corner,,just look at Israel's situation***
We do know the antichrist spirit is grwoing stronger every day = witness the new AI movement. Witness the growing paganism cult, like never before.
We can all read the news.
Yeshua is working now for His Holy Kingdom, We can also see judgements.
Not sure who started this idea of IMMINENT,, But they are antichrist. Leading the weaker members into confusions.

Right, can you imagine Paul saying that he could not go to Rome after he had been told, by the Spirit, that he had to go to Rome? Can you imagine him saying, instead, I will go to Rome only if Christ doesn't come 1st?

No, we were informed that Jesus told his Disiciples that the Gospel of his Kingdom would reach the ends of the earth before the end of the age takes place. That means positively Christ could *not* come on any day--that day, the next day, or the next year! Ministry of the word must be completed before the Kingdom comes!

But I do think we need to keep our eyes peeled towards heaven, because a lot is happening that should wake us up if we're not already totally awakened! The AI thing is huge--remember God told the people at the Tower of Babel that mankind can do whatever they wished to create their own kingdom on earth.

But God has to stop it. And I believe it has to be relatively soon--I should think within the next few generations at least?

Thanks for the conversation!