Improbable DNA

[InquisitiveSkeptic]

They say its illogical that DNA formed out of chance is extremely unlikely, in fact... 1*10^65.

just to clarify, i do programming and an astyrix means times. 2*2=4 and this ^ means to the power of. so 3^2 = 9


I take a 10X10 square of squares. thats 100 squares. Putting an object in the correct place is 1 in 100 probability. Putting a second object in the correct place is 1 in 99. Putting them both in the right place is 1/100*1/99 = a chance of 1 in 9,900. Putting all the pieces in the right place has a probability, through the obvious recursive sum wich im just going to tell you the answer to.

placing 100 objects, in the right places in 100 squares is a probability of 1*10^57.

wich looks like this,
1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

So why mention this? Well. Lets look at a random object, say a pebble. It contains billions of atoms. Each in a speicific location. what is the probability that the attom got there by sheer chance? huh?

its about 1 in 1*10^27. So, what does it say? God made pebbles because they are highly improbable? No. Its demonstrative of a law of thermodynamics. Its statistical thermodynamics and is far too mathematical to explain on a forum. People train for 5 years to learn to do it on a basic level. It shows any configuration of atoms is almost infinetaly improbable. But no matter how improbable, the system must exist in that state. All the improbability calculations against DNA show is the probability of a single state. But nothing is entirely governed by chance, but rather electromagnetic force. or as you know it, chemistry. Just like a ball falling in a specific way is govorned by the gravitational force.


Justify the improbability factor with DNA, given that everything is excessively improbable by chance. It doesnt say that god likes making pebbles, it invalidates the improbability argument as everything is nierly equally improbable within a certian range.

 

[Free]

I don't think the analogy to a pebble stands. A pebble, like most things, is formed from atoms that are attracted to each other.

DNA, on the other hand, is not only an arrangement of molecules, it carries very complex information.

 

[InquisitiveSkeptic]

I don't think the analogy to a pebble stands. A pebble, like most things, is formed from atoms that are attracted to each other.

DNA, on the other hand, is not only an arrangement of molecules, it carries very complex information.

Well, actually. Pebbles arent made from elements, they too are a mixture of different molecules, much like DNA those molecules arrange themselves in a micture very well, to some degree they do it with a pattern. or we would find no similarities between differnt samples of the same rock; saying DNA carries information on creating life is like saying chemical compounds tell rocks how to form.

The "Information" DNA carries is not actually information like you could find in a hard drive; its barely information at all. Its analogised as information for easy understanding by the average undergraduate or intelligence level. The so called information is a chemical configuration, all chemical configurations have effects on the overall behaviour of a molecule. its like the electrons in atoms have effects on the atoms behaviour, but they are not information telling an atom how to behave. the arrangement of DNA is not information, rather just something that has an effect and often can vary by chemical means and we then go onto explaining evolution. My analogies are valid.

 

[Vic C.]

Pebbles arent made from elements

You may want to leave the physics and geology to the physicists and geologists & leave the theology to the theologians too. :yes

Everything material in the known universe is made of an element or elements. For instance, a granite stone has these (and more) elements in it:

aluminum, calcium, iron, magnesium, potassium, silicon and sodium.

 

[InquisitiveSkeptic]

Pebbles arent made from elements

You may want to leave the physics and geology to the physicists and geologists & leave the theology to the theologians too. :yes

Everything material in the known universe is made of an element or elements. For instance, a granite stone has these (and more) elements in it:

aluminum, calcium, iron, magnesium, potassium, silicon and sodium.

you meant elements in as part of a mixture of various chemical compounds. it didnt read like that. partly because Im a studying physicist. im somewhat a nerd hence the programming. when you say something is made from an element it usually implies its made from just that element.

but also, you state pebbles are made from elements.

then dna is made of molecules.

pebbles and dna are both made from mollecular structures. with the exception of the occasional gold atom being caught inside a rock, for example.

But whereas the placement of molecules in dna cause a life form to exist in a certian physical way, the arrangement of molecules in rocks doesnt make all rocks identical. but, saying DNA carries information is exceptionally argueable.


like i said. Chemical compounds have a set molecular structure and molecualr shape. Saying DNA carries information for forming life means you have to admit that chemical compounds also form from information given by the electron arrangement of atoms.

 

[Vic C.]

you meant elements in as part of a mixture of various chemical compounds. it didnt read like that.

Sorry if was unclear. I was just boiling it down to the most basic of statements, which is, all matter, not matter what, is composed of one of more elements. Yes, I do realize that a pebble is not an element, but is comprised of various other chemical elements. I was in no way attempting to suggest anything else. :yes

 

[Physicist]

Every event (including me typing this note) is highly improbable, given all the options available.

 

[logical bob]

Every event (including me typing this note) is highly improbable, given all the options available.

Yet that sounds like just the sort of thing you'd be likely to say!

 

[mondar]

Justify the improbability factor with DNA, given that everything is excessively improbable by chance. It doesnt say that god likes making pebbles, it invalidates the improbability argument as everything is nierly equally improbable within a certian range.

Why should I care what the mathematical chances are of naturally occurring DNA happen to be?

Also, where in nature can I observe naturally occurring DNA being formed?

 

[InquisitiveSkeptic]

Justify the improbability factor with DNA, given that everything is excessively improbable by chance. It doesnt say that god likes making pebbles, it invalidates the improbability argument as everything is nierly equally improbable within a certian range.

Why should I care what the mathematical chances are of naturally occurring DNA happen to be?

Also, where in nature can I observe naturally occurring DNA being formed?

Naturally occuring DNA, occurs in every single living organism. however, these mathematics are here to show you that Abiogenesis is not as impossible as people think it. Im really here to deal with fundies, not rational christians. but I advise you to practice reading comprehention.