I
Imagican
Guest
WARNING: This is NOT for the 'weak' or 'feeble hearted'. Read at your OWN RISK.
AChristian,
What is contained within my reply is two-fold. What I have attempted to do in this 'answer' is offer that The Word of the apostles and The Gospels IS 'enough' for one LED by The Sprit to OBTAIN the 'Grace of God' and the 'gift offered' through His Son Jesus Chist. That there is NO need, nor were we EVER instructed to 'follow after' any man-made institution or institutions.
Also, I believe that I have offered AMPLE 'proof' that the CC most assuredly did not, nor does it now, offer ANYTHING other than it's OWN teachings and MANY of which are in complete contradiction to that which was offered BEFORE they even 'became' an organization.
That you will most likely deny what I have offered here will come as NO SURPRISE. For we have been warned that MANY, (not a few, but MANY), will deny wholesome words and instead insist upon that 'taught by MEN' for a NUMBER of different reasons. Some for profit, some for power, some simply through 'self will'.
But I offer this: For those that are TRULY led by The Spirit these words will 'ring TRUE'. That there will be 'some' that read what is offered here, they will NOT be able to understand OR accept them for the sake of their faith being NOT in God or His Son, but in the 'men' that have LED them to false understanding.
There is AMPLE 'proof' offered here that the 'churches' that are so named in our modern times are of little resemblance to The Church as offered in The Bible. That what we 'call' churches now days are nothing other than 'man-made' institutions that have little to offer other than comfort for 'itching ears' that desire NOT 'TRUTH' in Spirit but that which PLEASES their carnal senses and understanding.
So, read if you dare. But beware, you have already been warned.
I know that there is MUCH here. But what is offered in these words is 'TRUTH'. If one is 'a part' of The Body then they ARE able to 'understand' the TRUTH contained within these words. If their understanding is 'unfruitful' then they are NOT 'of the Body' and therefore devoid of 'the TRUTH'. It's as plain and simple as the words offered.
John 21:
[25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Here we have plain evidence that EVERYTHING that 'happened' concerning Christ OR the apostles, (I'm SURE we can correctly 'assume' that this is TRUTH), was NOT written down for our record. But OBVIOUSLY 'enough' so that we ARE able to come to The Truth.
Acts 1:
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I add this to PLAINLY show what the apostles considered NECESSARY for one to BE an 'apostle'. I'm sure you will see my point and it's significance. Since the CC teaches that there has been apostolic succession, this clearly indicates that their claim is NOT possible. Since the apostles themselves have stated was IS necessary for one to BE an apostle.
I am well aware that NOT ONLY the CC 'believes' that there are modern day 'apostles', but other denominations as well, I offer this in order to 'bring about an understanding' that the apostolic era ended WITH the apostles. They were chosen to witness and spread the testimony of Christ's appearance and ministry here on Earth. Once thier purpose was established, there was NO LONGER any NEED for apostleship. Note that almost EVERY letter that Paul wrote to the churches made reference to the letter being addressed to 'the Saints' present in receivership of the epistles. And then when we read of the 'gifts' of the Spirit we see that each time apostleship is mentioned it is refered to as 'first'. Another pure indication that this gift WAS SPECIFIC, first offered.
But I digress, enough of this for now. It could take up a volumnous thread of it's own. Suffice is to say that I offer this to 'show' the 'alteration' of teaching offered by the CC who BELIEVE and teach that their Pope IS an apostle contrary to ALL indication as offered through The Word.
Romans: 1:
[7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here is FURTHER evidence that those in Rome were NOT apostles, but considered to be Saints instead.
Romans:
[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
This clearly shows that the Gospel IS the POWER of God unto Salvation. The GOSPEL, get it? The testimony OF Jesus Christ IS The POWER of God UNTO Salvation. Not some 'man-made' teachings organized into a 'religion'.
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Here, if one were to take into consideration and understanding ALL that is written; Paul is offering, TO THE ROMANS, a brief description of EXACTLY how this PEOPLE had fallen from God's grace. And when we read it, it becomes apparent that this is not only a brief history, but a 'prophecy' as well. We have ALL witnessed the fall of MANY 'priests' in this EXACT MANNER. I think it goes without an explanation from myself as to what I refer.
And we SEE through Paul's words that EVEN those that were GIVEN the TRUTH of God's EXISTENCE and Majesty', they STILL fell from His grace.
1 Corinthians 1:
[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
As I have pointed out before: The CC 'claims' to have 'remained' the same as in the beginning. But we know perfectly well that they have 'changed' over and over throughout their evolution. And with these changes came MUCH division. For ONE group would insist upon one thing, and another, another. With the 'outcome' decided by that group that contained the MOST POWER to FORCE all others into accpetance.
1 Corinthians 3:
[16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Ok, here we go. I pose this question to: Not ONLY the CC, but ANY denomination that would insist that one MUST be a 'member' of THEIR church in order to PLEASE God.
[21] Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
[22] Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[23] And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Hmmmmmm.,,,,,,,,,,, Now, how could one read this and UNDERSTAND it, and then STILL bow at the knees to a 'Pope' to KISS his hand? Now HOW could anyone that understands this writting accept and BELIEVE that there is ANY SUCH THING as 'an infalible' HUMAN? I could go on with this one for DAYS.................
1 Corinthians 4:
[9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
[10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
[11] Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
[12] And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
[13] Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
[14] I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
[15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
[16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Hmmmmmmmmm again: WHAT? The apostles LAST. A Spectacle? Fools? Hungry, thirsty, naked, no place to dwell? Working with their OWN HANDS? Reviled? Persecuted? Defamed? Filth of the World? I ask this of ANY MAN: Do these descriptions sound like attributes of The Pope? A Bishop of the CC? A priest? Come now, surely if these ARE apostles as the CC claims, then they would by necessity have the SAME attributes of the TRUE apostles. NO?
2 Corinthians 13:
[5] Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Ok, here we go again: Examine YOURSELVES. Prove YOUR OWN SELVES. Jesus is IN YOU, EXCEPT ye BE REPROBATES. Do I NEED to explain this one?
Galatians 1:
[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
This offers PURE PROOF that the Gospel that the apostles preached was PURE and without flaw. And that ANY OTHER is to be shunneed PERIOD. Not only shunned, but those preaching it to be ACCURSED. Now, how could an organization come around, lets say, TWO hundred years AFTER these things were written and offer ANYTHING other than what the apostles offered and NOT be exactly what is being warned against here? And from ALL indication, it had ALREADY started when Paul wrote this epistle.
Galatians 3:
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[4] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
[9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[15] Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
[17] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[18] For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now some MEAT: Oh FOOLISH Galatians.......WHO hath 'bewitched' you?
Here we have evidence concerning those that would INSIST upon following theological LAW. Asking WHY would you have RECEIVED 'grace' and then GO BACK and attempt to 'create' a 'Salvation through LAW'? For the ORIGINAL law was a 'schoolmaster'. NOT meant to BE such FOREVER. But ONLY so long as needed in order to TEACH God's chosen LOVE. And once the 'schoolmaster', (the law), had run it's course, THEN an example would be sent that would BECOME a NEW covenant NOT ONLY for God's 'chosen', but for ALL MEN. And NOW, there is NO NEED to 'create' Law in order to KNOW God, but to simply FOLLOW the LAWS written in the hearts of those that have TRULY accepted Christ into their hearts.
I know, pointless right? Wrong!!! For what we find in the CC is an organization that set a NEW set of LAW. Incorporating that of the past into 'something' NEW. They called it dogma, doctrine, theology, all kinds of cute philosophical names, but in FACT these were NOTHING other than a NEW 'set' of LAW that they insisted ALL MUST FOLLOW in order to receive the 'GIFT' offered BY GOD. NO different than what the Pharasees had inserted into Judaism. And we ALL, (those who have read the OT), KNOW what Christ was refering to when He pointed out their error.
Ephesians 1:
[17] That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[18] The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[19] And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
If this is a 'true saying' then it PLAINLY shows that CHRIST is the HEAD of The Church. Yet the Catholics have chosen to place a 'man' as HEAD. And once again we SEE that it is The Spirit that guideth and NOT MEN. That Christ IS LITERALLY the HEAD of the Church, hence; The Body of Christ, (those that believe and follow).
Ephesians 2:
[18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Self explanatory this is: For THROUGH HIM, (Christ), we BOTH, (Jew and Gentile), NOW have access by ONE SPIRIT to the Father, (God).
Ephesians 3:
[14] For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[15] Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
(this one is neat in that it offers clear explanation of God BEING All in all and Christ BEING a 'part of God'. NOT God Himself, but a PART of the WHOLE family.
[16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
[17] That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
[18] May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
[20] Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
[21] Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Here is UTTER FACT that our MISSION is NOT to follow 'a church', (man-made creation), but to simply FOLLOW IN SPIRIT. And that ANY that so choose to follow WILL KNOW the love of Christ and WILL be LED to TRUTH. The SAME truth as known by The Saints. Once obtaining this knowledge, BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD. And this speaks of a 'spiritual church' and NOT the material creation of men that they would 'call' a church.
Phillipians 3:
[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
[15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
God HAS revealed to me. And this would make me 'perfect'. NOT IN THE FEEBLE understanding of MEN. But in the Truth through The Spirit. In revelation of that which matters MOST: LOVE.
[16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
[17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Here we have Paul offering to follow HIS EXAMPLE. NOT some 'church of man-made origin'. Not through ANYTHING other than what we KNOW of Paul. And Paul NEVER forced ANYTHING upon ANYONE. And Paul here TELLS us to use HIM for the example and TO judge the teachings of others by HOW THEY COMPARE TO HIM.
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Pointing here to those whose God is their 'self fulfillment' and that which seek PERSONAL GLORY is their SHAME. Think about it. Here Paul is pointing out a 'warning' that there were already those that would subvert the TRUTH into 'something' of THEIR OWN design, for their OWN personal fulfillment and PERSONAL Glory. Taking AWAY from God and attempting to obtain it for THEMSELVES.
Colosians 2:
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
This sums us EVERYTHING that this discussion is about. This PLAINLY shows that we ARE COMPLETE IN CHRIST.
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[18] Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Hmmmmmm 'voluntary humility and worshipping of angels' could this BE; like worshiping Saints and prayer to MARY as the QUEEN of Heaven? I wonder.........
And here we have indication of Paul STATING that we are NO LONGER to be 'bound' by HAND WRITTEN ORDANACES, (the indication being those offered by 'men' VOID of The Spirit), for we KNOW that he has stated that what HE offers IS 'through Spirit' as he was led.
[19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
[20] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
[21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
[22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Here it is: AFTER THE COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN...... Choosing INSTEAD of following CHRIST as the HEAD, why would one 'go back' and 'create' NEW 'law' that was NOT offered through that which you 'claim' to follow?
[23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Thessalonians 1:
[5] For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Ah, 'OUR' GOSPEL, not ONLY IN WORD, but ALSO IN POWER. And this power STILL exists TODAY in the HEARTS of those THAT BELIEVE. For we HAVE what Paul offered AND the apostles. But MOST importantly NOW the 'teacher' IS The Holy Ghost.
2 Thessalonians 2:
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[16] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[17] Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Now, the CC would attempt to 'teach' that the traditions that they have 'inserted into Christianity' ARE those traditions taught by the apostles. Yet we have PROOF that MUCH of this Catholic tradition was NOT offered by the apostles. Some even contradicting the Prophets, Christ and His Apostles Themselves.
I would offer that THROUGH the Word, ALL the 'true' traditions that are NEEDED ARE offered and WERE offered PREVIOUS to the inception of the CC. That MYSELF or ANY OTHER is ABLE to obtain ALL that God has to offer REGARDLESS of; not only the CC, but ANY man-made institution that 'chooses' to 'call itself' a 'church'.
2 Thessalonians 2:
[1] Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
[2] And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
[3] But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
[4] And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
[5] And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
[6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
[7] For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
[8] Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
[9] Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
[10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
[11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
[12] Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
[13] But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
[14] And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
[15] Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
[16] Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.
[17] The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
[18] The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Oh my gosh. Did you READ this???? I should simply END this answer HERE. But I won't. There's PLENTY MORE. But can you UNDERSTAND what Paul is offering here? He PLAINLY offers that there were ALREADY those that chose to be 'busy bodies' instead of following that which was offered, were ALREADY 'inserting' their OWN understandings. Attempting to obtain GAIN from those that they were ABLE to subvert. And Paul PLAINLY offers that to AVOID these, all one NEED do is follow the example set by HIM. And what was this 'example'. I leave it to YOU who read this to find Paul's WHOLESOME words concerning HIS behavior so far as HIS apostleship is concerned. Read it and THEN compare it to what we KNOW of the CC and it's clergy.
Timothy 1:
[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
[6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
[7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
[9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
[10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
[11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
[12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
[13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I want ANY interested IN TRUTH to read what is written above: Those of the Catholic faith that have had disputes with my understanding; ESPECIALLY YOU. For you have often offered that what I have pointed out were acts perpetuated by a 'few bad men'. Now HOW could THE CHURCH allow BAD MEN to BE their LEADERS when we have HERE Paul offering what a Bishop MUST BE. For it is offered here PLAINLY the RULES of being a BISHOP.
I offer once again that the history of the CC is RIFE with accounts of their LEADERS being ANYTHING but what is stated above. NOT married with children, NOT immune to the LOVE of lucre, NOT having a GOOD reputation concerning those OUTSIDE of their OWN MINDS. Now HOW is is it EVEN possible to CLAIM that a Pope IS a FIT representative of Christ in leadership, (a Bishop), when said Pope does NOT FIT the requirements as offered by THE APOSTLES?
Not only am I refering to individual Popes, but there have even been times when the CC didn't even KNOW 'who' their Pope WAS? Time when there were a NUMBER of those that CLAIMED 'leadership' but with NO ordination of such.
Not a likely scenario of a 'group' BEING led BY The Spirit.
Timothy 4:
[6] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
These words and ALL that have preceeded were written BEFORE the formation of the CC.
[7] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
[8] For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
[9] This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
[10] For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
[11] These things command and teach.
[12] Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
[13] Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
these words written HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the formation of the CC. For when the CC was formed, there was NO WAY that ANYONE other than the clergy was ABLE to read The Word. What happened to the 'in charity' part of that offered above?
[14] Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
[15] Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
[16] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
This being PURE indication that there was ENOUGH doctrine ALREADY, (before the formation of the CC), to offer ALL that was NEEDED. And that we are RESPONSIBLE OURSELVES to obtain that which conforms to Godliness.
2 Timothy 1:
[13] Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Once again: What was offered PREVIOUS to the introduction of the CC.
2 Timothy 2:
[24] And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
[25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Does this truly sound like the 'leadership' of the CC? What history has offered is that MOST of the leadership was ANYTHING BUT what is offered above.
2 Timothy 3:
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And here we have the simplicity of the REASON behind SO many NOT being able to COME TO THE TRUTH. Concerned with SELF, MORE than TRUTH. The EXACT reason that Satan fell and HOW he offers SUBVERSION to those that he is ABLE to instill EXACTLY what HE chose that CAUSED his FALL from grace.
2 Timothy 4:
[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
What doctrine? That offered PREVIOUS to the CC, or that offered AFTER? I contend that the apostles WROTE 'previous' to the 'creation of the CC'. And that we are to have ALREADY been able to do that which is offered.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
[5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
[6] For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
And THIS is what happened AFTER. And Paul offers that we NO LONGER NEED HIM PERSONALLY, for we NOW have HIS WORDS offered THROUGH The Spirit.
Titus 1:
[14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
This PLAINLY states that commandments of MEN differ from those offered THROUGH The Spirit. And these commandments WILL turn those that accept them AWAY from The Truth.
Titus 2:
[15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Ah ha!!!! Eureka!!! With ALL authority. This is STATEMENT of FAITH in that we SHOULD be ABLE to have ALL confidence IF we are LED by THE SPIRIT. And that NO MAN, (or organization; group of men), should be ABLE to disuade us in our UNDERSTANDING or CONFIDENCE IN THE TRUTH as offered THROUGH THE SPIRIT.
Hebrews 2:
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
And HERE is how we KNOW that this is TRUE................ FAITH in that offered BY the apostles and MANIFEST in TRUTH through The Spirit!!!! And we CAN KNOW that God IS and that HE WILL reward those that seek after HIM, REGARDLESS of ANYONE, or ANYTHING ELSE.
James 2:
[8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
If the humility towards and worship of a POPE is NOT 'having respect of PERSONS, then I am surely CONFUSED. And IF the CC teaches 'respect of persons' in this regard, we have ALREADY been WARNED that this IS SIN.
James 2:
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Here again we PLAINLY SEE that it is The SPIRIT that brings life and the UNDERSTANDING of this Plainly offers the IMPORTANCE of 'spirit'. And here we speak of 'mortal life'. It is NO difference in IMMORTAL LIFE. For without The Spirit, there is NO understanding that can lead to everlasting life.
Peter 1:
[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[22] Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
[24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[25] But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
This IS evidence that the Word was as COMPLETE as NEED BE well BEFORE the formation of the CC. And the WORD and it's preaching is NOT NEEDED for those that SEEK the TRUTH through LOVE. The Word was meant to LEAD those that DIDN'T understand LOVE, but NEEDED a 'push' in the right direction through the PULLING of their heart INTO the 'right direction'. For God IS able to DO with us as He will with or without the written Word. For as we have witnessed; Paul was 'brought to the TRUTH' WITHOUT the written word. So TOO were ALL the apostles and prophets. And God IS able to bring understanding to WHOM He WILL. And folks, when the books of the Bible were originally written, THERE WAS NO BIBLE. Nor was there the WRITTEN WORD. But those that FOUND the TRUTH were LED BY The SPIRIT. Just goes to show HOW FAR we have TRULY 'fallen AWAY' that NOW we are 'hardpressed' to even understand the WRITTEN WORD that bears PHYSICAL evidence of that which is offered in GRACE. Yet ONCE, men were ABLE to come to the TRUTH through SPIRIT ALONE.
Peter 2:
[1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:[3] If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
And here it IS again; now I ask WHAT IS the 'sincere milk of the word'? And WHEN was this offered?
Peter 5:
[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
And THIS my friends is NOT what history offers in explanation of the WORKINGS of the CC. For EVERY piece of history offered REEKS of 'their church' BEING 'lords OVER God's herritage. What we argue this very moment IS this FACT. And here we ARE WARNED against such concept as the CC is BASED upon. We are TOLD to BE EXAMPLES, NOT to simply BELIEVE that we are THE LORDS over God's word.
2 Peter 1:
[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The CC is 'slick' in that it INSISTS that for ME to interpret what has been offered THROUGH The Spirit IS 'my private interpretation'. And the ONLY reason for this accusation is to indicate that I am UNABLE to BE LED by The Spirit. That I MUST accept that it is THEY who are led and that I am to follow THEM or BE LOST to understanding. So in essence we have the CC indicating or outright STATING that I MUST follow "their understanding' or there CAN BE NO understanding of MINE that is TRUTH. Now THAT IS 'pretty slick'. Especially when we consider that they had the STRONGEST ARMIES on the PLANET backing their teachings for well over a THOUSAND YEARS. Pretty easy to TEACH, (or FORCE FEED), whatever one chooses IF they have the ability to back it up with the threat of imprisonment or WORSE for those that would dispute their teachings.
And note that the TRUTH came from the HOLY GHOST and NOT by the 'will of men'. And REGARDLESS of what 'many accuse' I offer NOT MINE OWN UNDERSTANDING, but that which can EASILY be proven through The Word as 'given' through The Holy Spirit. READ IT YOURSELF.
2 Peter 2:
[1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Here is the PURPOSE behind my 'thread' concerning 'different Christs'.
[2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
and if the accusations and inuendo concerning MY ability to be LED by The Spirit are NOT exactly what has been offered above then I am UNABLE to defend myself further.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you
[3]: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Is this TRULY 'so hard' to be 'understood'?
2 Peter 3:
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
And here again we have the offering that IF one is UNABLE to understand or MUST wrestle with thier understanding then they CANNOT claim to be LED by The Spirit. If one DOES NOT have 'confidence' in their understanding and IS ABLE to be 'swayed back and forth' then they have NOT found sufficient FOUNDATION to start with.
[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Ah, need I say more?
John 1:
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Is there a ONE OF US that IS without sin. Speak up for I TRULY desire to MEET a one such as this. Some offer that ONCE one is 'saved' that they NO LONGER sin. Oh contare. For EACH and EVERY ONE OF US IS a sinner. And the ONLY 'saving grace' is simply THAT; 'the Saving Grace of God'. For if NOT for this 'Grace' EACH and every one of us would surely suffer the separation that has been warned of.
John 2:
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
have PERSONALLY witnessed hatred for one's brothers over and over again HERE on this VERY forum. Personal threat, name calling, false accusation, etc etc......... By those that 'claim' to HAVE understanding. Almost EVERY TIME that I have entered discussion of the CC, those members that take offense to my offerings end up casting false accusations and attempted belittlement instead of simply dealing with the TRUTH.
[15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
ANY man-made institution IS of THIS WORLD, (the flesh). And the flesh IS CARNAL by NATURE. It is that from ABOVE that we are to place our FAITH in. That which is BEYOND the understanding of 'this world' that we have been offered through The Word IF we are LED by The Spirit.
[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
[20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
Here it is again: We need NO MAN, or MAN MADE institution to TEACH us that which is HOLY. The Spirit CONFESSES itself. Yet there WERE those that were 'first DRAWN by The Spirit in TRUTH yet chose to DENY it for the sake of 'self' and then 'go out' and teach others the SAME. But CLEARLY the words here offer that we ARE able to 'separate' ourselves FROM THE WORLD and that THROUGH the Spirit ARE able to understand that which God desires to impart upon our hearts and minds.
John 2:
[24] Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Does it GET Any CLEARER than THIS? You asked, and HERE IS YOUR ANSWER. I don't know WHAT anointing that YOU have received. But I DO KNOW the anointing that has been received of myself. And this I KNOW is from God through The Spirit. And I CANNOT doubt that which The Spirit has imparted. And I AM NOT ASHAMED to speak that which has been offered. Nor CAN I 'deny' the Truth that has been revealed.
2 John 1:
[8] Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Notice that this does NOT speak of the 'doctrines of MEN', but the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. So ANYTHING that contradicts the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST is NOT TRUTH not matter HOW MANY PEOPLE follow IT.
3 John 1:
[5] Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;
[6] Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
[7] Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.
Wow, do you GET IT?
Jude 1:
[17] But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;[18] How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
[19] These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[22] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
this one is a 'tough one'. For to discern what is offered here takes FAITH. For those that are weak it takes MORE faith than they seem to be able to muster. For it 'seems' that 'to follow the BIGGER crowd' is MORE desirable than the TRUTH. And without abandoning that which is UNRIGHTEOUS and 'taking on that which IS', one is forever doomed to be 'lost' in understanding.
Revelation 22:
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
I know that there is MUCH here. But what is offered in these words is 'TRUTH'. If one is 'a part' of The Body then they ARE able to 'understand' the TRUTH contained within these words. If their understanding is 'unfruitful' then they are NOT 'of the Body' and therefore devoid of 'the TRUTH'. It's as plain and simple as the words offered.
What I believe I have offered is PURE AND UTTER TRUTH in that there is NO 'man-made' church that IS TRUTH. That there is ONLY ONE TRUE Church and that IS The Body of Christ. And NO ONE born of The Spirit NEEDS a 'man-made' organization to offer them ANYTHING. We are to 'gather' but were NEVER told to 'gather with demons'. And ANYONE led to darkness by Satan is as one possessed by DEMONS. For it is THROUGH demons that Satan is ABLE to influence those that he LEADS.
So, if one were to 'create' a 'church', regardless of 'who's NAME' they use to lead others to 'worship' IF they are NOT led BY The Spirit, they are but 'slaves of the 'dark one' being led to destruction. And HOW could The Spirit POSSIBLY dwell in the hearts of those that are damned by their own heresies. Their OWN idols of worship that have NO BEARING on The TRUTH as offered THROUGH The Spirit? Do you HONESTLY 'believe' that The Spirit will dwell in a 'gathering' of those that are 'demon filled'?
And the PROOF of what I offer here is MANIFEST in the HEARTS of those that may READ THESE words and TAKE OFFENSE. For in these, THERE IS NO LOVE in their hearts but HATRED for wholesome words of TRUTH. Their hearts being made manifest through their lack of LOVE of TRUTH, and hatred towards their brothers and sisters in Christ. The TRUTH IS THE TRUTH and the ONLY ones that it is ABLE to offend are those who DENY IT.
MEC
AChristian,
What is contained within my reply is two-fold. What I have attempted to do in this 'answer' is offer that The Word of the apostles and The Gospels IS 'enough' for one LED by The Sprit to OBTAIN the 'Grace of God' and the 'gift offered' through His Son Jesus Chist. That there is NO need, nor were we EVER instructed to 'follow after' any man-made institution or institutions.
Also, I believe that I have offered AMPLE 'proof' that the CC most assuredly did not, nor does it now, offer ANYTHING other than it's OWN teachings and MANY of which are in complete contradiction to that which was offered BEFORE they even 'became' an organization.
That you will most likely deny what I have offered here will come as NO SURPRISE. For we have been warned that MANY, (not a few, but MANY), will deny wholesome words and instead insist upon that 'taught by MEN' for a NUMBER of different reasons. Some for profit, some for power, some simply through 'self will'.
But I offer this: For those that are TRULY led by The Spirit these words will 'ring TRUE'. That there will be 'some' that read what is offered here, they will NOT be able to understand OR accept them for the sake of their faith being NOT in God or His Son, but in the 'men' that have LED them to false understanding.
There is AMPLE 'proof' offered here that the 'churches' that are so named in our modern times are of little resemblance to The Church as offered in The Bible. That what we 'call' churches now days are nothing other than 'man-made' institutions that have little to offer other than comfort for 'itching ears' that desire NOT 'TRUTH' in Spirit but that which PLEASES their carnal senses and understanding.
So, read if you dare. But beware, you have already been warned.
I know that there is MUCH here. But what is offered in these words is 'TRUTH'. If one is 'a part' of The Body then they ARE able to 'understand' the TRUTH contained within these words. If their understanding is 'unfruitful' then they are NOT 'of the Body' and therefore devoid of 'the TRUTH'. It's as plain and simple as the words offered.
John 21:
[25] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Here we have plain evidence that EVERYTHING that 'happened' concerning Christ OR the apostles, (I'm SURE we can correctly 'assume' that this is TRUTH), was NOT written down for our record. But OBVIOUSLY 'enough' so that we ARE able to come to The Truth.
Acts 1:
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I add this to PLAINLY show what the apostles considered NECESSARY for one to BE an 'apostle'. I'm sure you will see my point and it's significance. Since the CC teaches that there has been apostolic succession, this clearly indicates that their claim is NOT possible. Since the apostles themselves have stated was IS necessary for one to BE an apostle.
I am well aware that NOT ONLY the CC 'believes' that there are modern day 'apostles', but other denominations as well, I offer this in order to 'bring about an understanding' that the apostolic era ended WITH the apostles. They were chosen to witness and spread the testimony of Christ's appearance and ministry here on Earth. Once thier purpose was established, there was NO LONGER any NEED for apostleship. Note that almost EVERY letter that Paul wrote to the churches made reference to the letter being addressed to 'the Saints' present in receivership of the epistles. And then when we read of the 'gifts' of the Spirit we see that each time apostleship is mentioned it is refered to as 'first'. Another pure indication that this gift WAS SPECIFIC, first offered.
But I digress, enough of this for now. It could take up a volumnous thread of it's own. Suffice is to say that I offer this to 'show' the 'alteration' of teaching offered by the CC who BELIEVE and teach that their Pope IS an apostle contrary to ALL indication as offered through The Word.
Romans: 1:
[7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Here is FURTHER evidence that those in Rome were NOT apostles, but considered to be Saints instead.
Romans:
[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
This clearly shows that the Gospel IS the POWER of God unto Salvation. The GOSPEL, get it? The testimony OF Jesus Christ IS The POWER of God UNTO Salvation. Not some 'man-made' teachings organized into a 'religion'.
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Here, if one were to take into consideration and understanding ALL that is written; Paul is offering, TO THE ROMANS, a brief description of EXACTLY how this PEOPLE had fallen from God's grace. And when we read it, it becomes apparent that this is not only a brief history, but a 'prophecy' as well. We have ALL witnessed the fall of MANY 'priests' in this EXACT MANNER. I think it goes without an explanation from myself as to what I refer.
And we SEE through Paul's words that EVEN those that were GIVEN the TRUTH of God's EXISTENCE and Majesty', they STILL fell from His grace.
1 Corinthians 1:
[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
As I have pointed out before: The CC 'claims' to have 'remained' the same as in the beginning. But we know perfectly well that they have 'changed' over and over throughout their evolution. And with these changes came MUCH division. For ONE group would insist upon one thing, and another, another. With the 'outcome' decided by that group that contained the MOST POWER to FORCE all others into accpetance.
1 Corinthians 3:
[16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Ok, here we go. I pose this question to: Not ONLY the CC, but ANY denomination that would insist that one MUST be a 'member' of THEIR church in order to PLEASE God.
[21] Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
[22] Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[23] And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Hmmmmmm.,,,,,,,,,,, Now, how could one read this and UNDERSTAND it, and then STILL bow at the knees to a 'Pope' to KISS his hand? Now HOW could anyone that understands this writting accept and BELIEVE that there is ANY SUCH THING as 'an infalible' HUMAN? I could go on with this one for DAYS.................
1 Corinthians 4:
[9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
[10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
[11] Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
[12] And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
[13] Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
[14] I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
[15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
[16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Hmmmmmmmmm again: WHAT? The apostles LAST. A Spectacle? Fools? Hungry, thirsty, naked, no place to dwell? Working with their OWN HANDS? Reviled? Persecuted? Defamed? Filth of the World? I ask this of ANY MAN: Do these descriptions sound like attributes of The Pope? A Bishop of the CC? A priest? Come now, surely if these ARE apostles as the CC claims, then they would by necessity have the SAME attributes of the TRUE apostles. NO?
2 Corinthians 13:
[5] Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Ok, here we go again: Examine YOURSELVES. Prove YOUR OWN SELVES. Jesus is IN YOU, EXCEPT ye BE REPROBATES. Do I NEED to explain this one?
Galatians 1:
[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
This offers PURE PROOF that the Gospel that the apostles preached was PURE and without flaw. And that ANY OTHER is to be shunneed PERIOD. Not only shunned, but those preaching it to be ACCURSED. Now, how could an organization come around, lets say, TWO hundred years AFTER these things were written and offer ANYTHING other than what the apostles offered and NOT be exactly what is being warned against here? And from ALL indication, it had ALREADY started when Paul wrote this epistle.
Galatians 3:
[1] O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[4] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
[9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[15] Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
[17] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[18] For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[20] Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
[21] Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now some MEAT: Oh FOOLISH Galatians.......WHO hath 'bewitched' you?
Here we have evidence concerning those that would INSIST upon following theological LAW. Asking WHY would you have RECEIVED 'grace' and then GO BACK and attempt to 'create' a 'Salvation through LAW'? For the ORIGINAL law was a 'schoolmaster'. NOT meant to BE such FOREVER. But ONLY so long as needed in order to TEACH God's chosen LOVE. And once the 'schoolmaster', (the law), had run it's course, THEN an example would be sent that would BECOME a NEW covenant NOT ONLY for God's 'chosen', but for ALL MEN. And NOW, there is NO NEED to 'create' Law in order to KNOW God, but to simply FOLLOW the LAWS written in the hearts of those that have TRULY accepted Christ into their hearts.
I know, pointless right? Wrong!!! For what we find in the CC is an organization that set a NEW set of LAW. Incorporating that of the past into 'something' NEW. They called it dogma, doctrine, theology, all kinds of cute philosophical names, but in FACT these were NOTHING other than a NEW 'set' of LAW that they insisted ALL MUST FOLLOW in order to receive the 'GIFT' offered BY GOD. NO different than what the Pharasees had inserted into Judaism. And we ALL, (those who have read the OT), KNOW what Christ was refering to when He pointed out their error.
Ephesians 1:
[17] That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[18] The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
[19] And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
If this is a 'true saying' then it PLAINLY shows that CHRIST is the HEAD of The Church. Yet the Catholics have chosen to place a 'man' as HEAD. And once again we SEE that it is The Spirit that guideth and NOT MEN. That Christ IS LITERALLY the HEAD of the Church, hence; The Body of Christ, (those that believe and follow).
Ephesians 2:
[18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Self explanatory this is: For THROUGH HIM, (Christ), we BOTH, (Jew and Gentile), NOW have access by ONE SPIRIT to the Father, (God).
Ephesians 3:
[14] For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[15] Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
(this one is neat in that it offers clear explanation of God BEING All in all and Christ BEING a 'part of God'. NOT God Himself, but a PART of the WHOLE family.
[16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
[17] That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
[18] May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
[20] Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
[21] Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Here is UTTER FACT that our MISSION is NOT to follow 'a church', (man-made creation), but to simply FOLLOW IN SPIRIT. And that ANY that so choose to follow WILL KNOW the love of Christ and WILL be LED to TRUTH. The SAME truth as known by The Saints. Once obtaining this knowledge, BE FILLED WITH ALL THE FULNESS OF GOD. And this speaks of a 'spiritual church' and NOT the material creation of men that they would 'call' a church.
Phillipians 3:
[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
[15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
God HAS revealed to me. And this would make me 'perfect'. NOT IN THE FEEBLE understanding of MEN. But in the Truth through The Spirit. In revelation of that which matters MOST: LOVE.
[16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
[17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Here we have Paul offering to follow HIS EXAMPLE. NOT some 'church of man-made origin'. Not through ANYTHING other than what we KNOW of Paul. And Paul NEVER forced ANYTHING upon ANYONE. And Paul here TELLS us to use HIM for the example and TO judge the teachings of others by HOW THEY COMPARE TO HIM.
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Pointing here to those whose God is their 'self fulfillment' and that which seek PERSONAL GLORY is their SHAME. Think about it. Here Paul is pointing out a 'warning' that there were already those that would subvert the TRUTH into 'something' of THEIR OWN design, for their OWN personal fulfillment and PERSONAL Glory. Taking AWAY from God and attempting to obtain it for THEMSELVES.
Colosians 2:
[10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
This sums us EVERYTHING that this discussion is about. This PLAINLY shows that we ARE COMPLETE IN CHRIST.
[11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[18] Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Hmmmmmm 'voluntary humility and worshipping of angels' could this BE; like worshiping Saints and prayer to MARY as the QUEEN of Heaven? I wonder.........
And here we have indication of Paul STATING that we are NO LONGER to be 'bound' by HAND WRITTEN ORDANACES, (the indication being those offered by 'men' VOID of The Spirit), for we KNOW that he has stated that what HE offers IS 'through Spirit' as he was led.
[19] And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
[20] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
[21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
[22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Here it is: AFTER THE COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN...... Choosing INSTEAD of following CHRIST as the HEAD, why would one 'go back' and 'create' NEW 'law' that was NOT offered through that which you 'claim' to follow?
[23] Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Thessalonians 1:
[5] For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Ah, 'OUR' GOSPEL, not ONLY IN WORD, but ALSO IN POWER. And this power STILL exists TODAY in the HEARTS of those THAT BELIEVE. For we HAVE what Paul offered AND the apostles. But MOST importantly NOW the 'teacher' IS The Holy Ghost.
2 Thessalonians 2:
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[16] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[17] Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Now, the CC would attempt to 'teach' that the traditions that they have 'inserted into Christianity' ARE those traditions taught by the apostles. Yet we have PROOF that MUCH of this Catholic tradition was NOT offered by the apostles. Some even contradicting the Prophets, Christ and His Apostles Themselves.
I would offer that THROUGH the Word, ALL the 'true' traditions that are NEEDED ARE offered and WERE offered PREVIOUS to the inception of the CC. That MYSELF or ANY OTHER is ABLE to obtain ALL that God has to offer REGARDLESS of; not only the CC, but ANY man-made institution that 'chooses' to 'call itself' a 'church'.
2 Thessalonians 2:
[1] Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
[2] And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
[3] But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
[4] And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
[5] And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
[6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
[7] For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
[8] Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
[9] Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
[10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
[11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
[12] Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
[13] But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
[14] And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
[15] Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
[16] Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.
[17] The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
[18] The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Oh my gosh. Did you READ this???? I should simply END this answer HERE. But I won't. There's PLENTY MORE. But can you UNDERSTAND what Paul is offering here? He PLAINLY offers that there were ALREADY those that chose to be 'busy bodies' instead of following that which was offered, were ALREADY 'inserting' their OWN understandings. Attempting to obtain GAIN from those that they were ABLE to subvert. And Paul PLAINLY offers that to AVOID these, all one NEED do is follow the example set by HIM. And what was this 'example'. I leave it to YOU who read this to find Paul's WHOLESOME words concerning HIS behavior so far as HIS apostleship is concerned. Read it and THEN compare it to what we KNOW of the CC and it's clergy.
Timothy 1:
[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
[2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
[3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
[5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
[6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
[7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
[8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
[9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
[10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
[11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
[12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
[13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[14] These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I want ANY interested IN TRUTH to read what is written above: Those of the Catholic faith that have had disputes with my understanding; ESPECIALLY YOU. For you have often offered that what I have pointed out were acts perpetuated by a 'few bad men'. Now HOW could THE CHURCH allow BAD MEN to BE their LEADERS when we have HERE Paul offering what a Bishop MUST BE. For it is offered here PLAINLY the RULES of being a BISHOP.
I offer once again that the history of the CC is RIFE with accounts of their LEADERS being ANYTHING but what is stated above. NOT married with children, NOT immune to the LOVE of lucre, NOT having a GOOD reputation concerning those OUTSIDE of their OWN MINDS. Now HOW is is it EVEN possible to CLAIM that a Pope IS a FIT representative of Christ in leadership, (a Bishop), when said Pope does NOT FIT the requirements as offered by THE APOSTLES?
Not only am I refering to individual Popes, but there have even been times when the CC didn't even KNOW 'who' their Pope WAS? Time when there were a NUMBER of those that CLAIMED 'leadership' but with NO ordination of such.
Not a likely scenario of a 'group' BEING led BY The Spirit.
Timothy 4:
[6] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
These words and ALL that have preceeded were written BEFORE the formation of the CC.
[7] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
[8] For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
[9] This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
[10] For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
[11] These things command and teach.
[12] Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
[13] Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
these words written HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the formation of the CC. For when the CC was formed, there was NO WAY that ANYONE other than the clergy was ABLE to read The Word. What happened to the 'in charity' part of that offered above?
[14] Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
[15] Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
[16] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
This being PURE indication that there was ENOUGH doctrine ALREADY, (before the formation of the CC), to offer ALL that was NEEDED. And that we are RESPONSIBLE OURSELVES to obtain that which conforms to Godliness.
2 Timothy 1:
[13] Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Once again: What was offered PREVIOUS to the introduction of the CC.
2 Timothy 2:
[24] And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
[25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Does this truly sound like the 'leadership' of the CC? What history has offered is that MOST of the leadership was ANYTHING BUT what is offered above.
2 Timothy 3:
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
And here we have the simplicity of the REASON behind SO many NOT being able to COME TO THE TRUTH. Concerned with SELF, MORE than TRUTH. The EXACT reason that Satan fell and HOW he offers SUBVERSION to those that he is ABLE to instill EXACTLY what HE chose that CAUSED his FALL from grace.
2 Timothy 4:
[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
What doctrine? That offered PREVIOUS to the CC, or that offered AFTER? I contend that the apostles WROTE 'previous' to the 'creation of the CC'. And that we are to have ALREADY been able to do that which is offered.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
[5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
[6] For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
And THIS is what happened AFTER. And Paul offers that we NO LONGER NEED HIM PERSONALLY, for we NOW have HIS WORDS offered THROUGH The Spirit.
Titus 1:
[14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
This PLAINLY states that commandments of MEN differ from those offered THROUGH The Spirit. And these commandments WILL turn those that accept them AWAY from The Truth.
Titus 2:
[15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Ah ha!!!! Eureka!!! With ALL authority. This is STATEMENT of FAITH in that we SHOULD be ABLE to have ALL confidence IF we are LED by THE SPIRIT. And that NO MAN, (or organization; group of men), should be ABLE to disuade us in our UNDERSTANDING or CONFIDENCE IN THE TRUTH as offered THROUGH THE SPIRIT.
Hebrews 2:
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
And HERE is how we KNOW that this is TRUE................ FAITH in that offered BY the apostles and MANIFEST in TRUTH through The Spirit!!!! And we CAN KNOW that God IS and that HE WILL reward those that seek after HIM, REGARDLESS of ANYONE, or ANYTHING ELSE.
James 2:
[8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
If the humility towards and worship of a POPE is NOT 'having respect of PERSONS, then I am surely CONFUSED. And IF the CC teaches 'respect of persons' in this regard, we have ALREADY been WARNED that this IS SIN.
James 2:
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Here again we PLAINLY SEE that it is The SPIRIT that brings life and the UNDERSTANDING of this Plainly offers the IMPORTANCE of 'spirit'. And here we speak of 'mortal life'. It is NO difference in IMMORTAL LIFE. For without The Spirit, there is NO understanding that can lead to everlasting life.
Peter 1:
[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[22] Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
[24] For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
[25] But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
This IS evidence that the Word was as COMPLETE as NEED BE well BEFORE the formation of the CC. And the WORD and it's preaching is NOT NEEDED for those that SEEK the TRUTH through LOVE. The Word was meant to LEAD those that DIDN'T understand LOVE, but NEEDED a 'push' in the right direction through the PULLING of their heart INTO the 'right direction'. For God IS able to DO with us as He will with or without the written Word. For as we have witnessed; Paul was 'brought to the TRUTH' WITHOUT the written word. So TOO were ALL the apostles and prophets. And God IS able to bring understanding to WHOM He WILL. And folks, when the books of the Bible were originally written, THERE WAS NO BIBLE. Nor was there the WRITTEN WORD. But those that FOUND the TRUTH were LED BY The SPIRIT. Just goes to show HOW FAR we have TRULY 'fallen AWAY' that NOW we are 'hardpressed' to even understand the WRITTEN WORD that bears PHYSICAL evidence of that which is offered in GRACE. Yet ONCE, men were ABLE to come to the TRUTH through SPIRIT ALONE.
Peter 2:
[1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:[3] If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
And here it IS again; now I ask WHAT IS the 'sincere milk of the word'? And WHEN was this offered?
Peter 5:
[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
[2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
[3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
And THIS my friends is NOT what history offers in explanation of the WORKINGS of the CC. For EVERY piece of history offered REEKS of 'their church' BEING 'lords OVER God's herritage. What we argue this very moment IS this FACT. And here we ARE WARNED against such concept as the CC is BASED upon. We are TOLD to BE EXAMPLES, NOT to simply BELIEVE that we are THE LORDS over God's word.
2 Peter 1:
[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The CC is 'slick' in that it INSISTS that for ME to interpret what has been offered THROUGH The Spirit IS 'my private interpretation'. And the ONLY reason for this accusation is to indicate that I am UNABLE to BE LED by The Spirit. That I MUST accept that it is THEY who are led and that I am to follow THEM or BE LOST to understanding. So in essence we have the CC indicating or outright STATING that I MUST follow "their understanding' or there CAN BE NO understanding of MINE that is TRUTH. Now THAT IS 'pretty slick'. Especially when we consider that they had the STRONGEST ARMIES on the PLANET backing their teachings for well over a THOUSAND YEARS. Pretty easy to TEACH, (or FORCE FEED), whatever one chooses IF they have the ability to back it up with the threat of imprisonment or WORSE for those that would dispute their teachings.
And note that the TRUTH came from the HOLY GHOST and NOT by the 'will of men'. And REGARDLESS of what 'many accuse' I offer NOT MINE OWN UNDERSTANDING, but that which can EASILY be proven through The Word as 'given' through The Holy Spirit. READ IT YOURSELF.
2 Peter 2:
[1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Here is the PURPOSE behind my 'thread' concerning 'different Christs'.
[2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
and if the accusations and inuendo concerning MY ability to be LED by The Spirit are NOT exactly what has been offered above then I am UNABLE to defend myself further.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you
[3]: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Is this TRULY 'so hard' to be 'understood'?
2 Peter 3:
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
And here again we have the offering that IF one is UNABLE to understand or MUST wrestle with thier understanding then they CANNOT claim to be LED by The Spirit. If one DOES NOT have 'confidence' in their understanding and IS ABLE to be 'swayed back and forth' then they have NOT found sufficient FOUNDATION to start with.
[17] Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Ah, need I say more?
John 1:
[1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[2] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Is there a ONE OF US that IS without sin. Speak up for I TRULY desire to MEET a one such as this. Some offer that ONCE one is 'saved' that they NO LONGER sin. Oh contare. For EACH and EVERY ONE OF US IS a sinner. And the ONLY 'saving grace' is simply THAT; 'the Saving Grace of God'. For if NOT for this 'Grace' EACH and every one of us would surely suffer the separation that has been warned of.
John 2:
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
have PERSONALLY witnessed hatred for one's brothers over and over again HERE on this VERY forum. Personal threat, name calling, false accusation, etc etc......... By those that 'claim' to HAVE understanding. Almost EVERY TIME that I have entered discussion of the CC, those members that take offense to my offerings end up casting false accusations and attempted belittlement instead of simply dealing with the TRUTH.
[15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
ANY man-made institution IS of THIS WORLD, (the flesh). And the flesh IS CARNAL by NATURE. It is that from ABOVE that we are to place our FAITH in. That which is BEYOND the understanding of 'this world' that we have been offered through The Word IF we are LED by The Spirit.
[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
[20] But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
Here it is again: We need NO MAN, or MAN MADE institution to TEACH us that which is HOLY. The Spirit CONFESSES itself. Yet there WERE those that were 'first DRAWN by The Spirit in TRUTH yet chose to DENY it for the sake of 'self' and then 'go out' and teach others the SAME. But CLEARLY the words here offer that we ARE able to 'separate' ourselves FROM THE WORLD and that THROUGH the Spirit ARE able to understand that which God desires to impart upon our hearts and minds.
John 2:
[24] Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Does it GET Any CLEARER than THIS? You asked, and HERE IS YOUR ANSWER. I don't know WHAT anointing that YOU have received. But I DO KNOW the anointing that has been received of myself. And this I KNOW is from God through The Spirit. And I CANNOT doubt that which The Spirit has imparted. And I AM NOT ASHAMED to speak that which has been offered. Nor CAN I 'deny' the Truth that has been revealed.
2 John 1:
[8] Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
[10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Notice that this does NOT speak of the 'doctrines of MEN', but the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST. So ANYTHING that contradicts the DOCTRINE OF CHRIST is NOT TRUTH not matter HOW MANY PEOPLE follow IT.
3 John 1:
[5] Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;
[6] Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
[7] Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.
Wow, do you GET IT?
Jude 1:
[17] But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;[18] How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
[19] These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[22] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
this one is a 'tough one'. For to discern what is offered here takes FAITH. For those that are weak it takes MORE faith than they seem to be able to muster. For it 'seems' that 'to follow the BIGGER crowd' is MORE desirable than the TRUTH. And without abandoning that which is UNRIGHTEOUS and 'taking on that which IS', one is forever doomed to be 'lost' in understanding.
Revelation 22:
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
I know that there is MUCH here. But what is offered in these words is 'TRUTH'. If one is 'a part' of The Body then they ARE able to 'understand' the TRUTH contained within these words. If their understanding is 'unfruitful' then they are NOT 'of the Body' and therefore devoid of 'the TRUTH'. It's as plain and simple as the words offered.
What I believe I have offered is PURE AND UTTER TRUTH in that there is NO 'man-made' church that IS TRUTH. That there is ONLY ONE TRUE Church and that IS The Body of Christ. And NO ONE born of The Spirit NEEDS a 'man-made' organization to offer them ANYTHING. We are to 'gather' but were NEVER told to 'gather with demons'. And ANYONE led to darkness by Satan is as one possessed by DEMONS. For it is THROUGH demons that Satan is ABLE to influence those that he LEADS.
So, if one were to 'create' a 'church', regardless of 'who's NAME' they use to lead others to 'worship' IF they are NOT led BY The Spirit, they are but 'slaves of the 'dark one' being led to destruction. And HOW could The Spirit POSSIBLY dwell in the hearts of those that are damned by their own heresies. Their OWN idols of worship that have NO BEARING on The TRUTH as offered THROUGH The Spirit? Do you HONESTLY 'believe' that The Spirit will dwell in a 'gathering' of those that are 'demon filled'?
And the PROOF of what I offer here is MANIFEST in the HEARTS of those that may READ THESE words and TAKE OFFENSE. For in these, THERE IS NO LOVE in their hearts but HATRED for wholesome words of TRUTH. Their hearts being made manifest through their lack of LOVE of TRUTH, and hatred towards their brothers and sisters in Christ. The TRUTH IS THE TRUTH and the ONLY ones that it is ABLE to offend are those who DENY IT.
MEC
