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Incest in the Bible

A

Allah's slave

Guest
Genesis 19:30-38 talks about how Lot's daughters got him drunk and slept with him while he was asleep astughfirullah. I'm just curious what some Christians here feel about the passages as it in indeed filled with disgusting incest slandering the Prophet Lot.
 
Lot and His Daughters Genesis 19:30-38

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.

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Allah's slave said:
Genesis 19:30-38 talks about how Lot's daughters got him drunk and slept with him while he was asleep astugdfirullah. I'm just curious what some Christians here feel about the passages as it in indeed filled with disgusting incest slandering the Prophet Lot.
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Allah's Slave, let me correct you. Lot was never a prophet. The Bible never claims that he was a prophet. Moses never claimed that Lot was a prophet. The Jews never said that Lot was a prophet.

Even if the Qur'an incorrectly declares Lot a prophet does not mean Christians or Jews have to consider him a prophet as well. Besides, if anyone is guilty, then it is his daughters and not necessarily Lot himself.

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But let us look further into the Quran. For a moment, let us trust Muhammad and believe that Lot was/is a prophet of Allah.

What did Muhammad say about Lot?

Muhammad says that Lot offered his daughters, Hud 11:78, al-Hijr 15:71

Hud 11:78 said:
And his people came unto him, running towards him - and before then they used to commit abominations - He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of Allah, and degrade me not in (the person of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man?
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al-Hijr 15:71 said:
He said: Here are my daughters, if ye must be doing (so).
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Some Muslims argue that Lot was offering his daughters for marriage. However, as a prophet in Islam, he was offering his daughters to those who committed abominations (Hud 11:78). This seems rather incongruent to his status as a prophet of God!

Can you see where Muhammad's mistakes are? By declaring that Lot was/is a prophet of Islam, you have this terrible situation and example of Lot offering his daughters to those who "commit abominations".... if anything is disgusting, it is this from a so-called prophet of Allah!

:o :o
 
Gary said:
Lyric's Dad said:
What does "astugdfirullah" mean? Thanks.
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astagfirullah (Islam) May Allah forgive me! (uttered when one is shocked by immoral behavior)

... it is Indonesian (I believe)
http://www.asiamaya.com/kamus/a/astagfirullah.htm

:) :)
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AHHH! Thanks...

Gary, I really appreciate your knowlege of the muslim religion. I get much from reading your responses. You seem to have studied it like I have looked into mormonism (having been one who was called out) and I really appreciate being able to see the truths you write.

Thanks.
 
It is a real pleasure Lyric's Dad. I noticed what you wrote about Mormonism... and your previous involvement in Mormonism.

We can both learn from each other and I know that your love of our Lord shines through in what you write and how you think about topics like parenting.

You are a blessing here....

Thanks again.

:)
 
But let us look further into the Quran. For a moment, let us trust Muhammad and believe that Lot was/is a prophet of Allah.

What did Muhammad say about Lot?

Muhammad says that Lot offered his daughters, Hud 11:78, al-Hijr 15:71

Hud 11:78 wrote:
And his people came unto him, running towards him - and before then they used to commit abominations - He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of Allah, and degrade me not in (the person of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man?

al-Hijr 15:71 wrote:
He said: Here are my daughters, if ye must be doing (so).

Some Muslims argue that Lot was offering his daughters for marriage. However, as a prophet in Islam, he was offering his daughters to those who committed abominations (Hud 11:78). This seems rather incongruent to his status as a prophet of God!

Can you see where Muhammad's mistakes are? By declaring that Lot was/is a prophet of Islam, you have this terrible situation and example of Lot offering his daughters to those who "commit abominations".... if anything is disgusting, it is this from a so-called prophet of Allah!
Click to expand...

Nice try Gary, but actually you are wrong. When Lut was offering his daughters, he was most probably talking about the girls of the town, because he was like the father of his people.

But in keeping with the original post, tell me what is the moral message we are supposed to get from this filthy story in the bible. Why would your God of the old testament go out of his way to inspire Moses to write such absurdity about Lot. Was their anything that we learnt from it, was thier any reproof for it, or correction from God to say that this was wrong. It there was please show me.

Remeber 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Where does this so called inspired story of Lot and his daughters fit in to this test that we are given in the New Testament.

What about the story of Judah sleeping with his daughter in law whom he supposes to be a prostitute in Genesis chapter 38.

15When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?

17And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?

18And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.

Read the whole story from the beginning of Genesis 38, tamar wants to get revenge on her father in law, because he deprived her of her seed right.
Is there any sense of moral teaching in this story which is supposed to be inspired by God? Does it fit anywhere in that beautiful test given in 2 timothy 3:16.?
 
Of course, the story of "prophet" Lot in the Quran teaches us nothing... except that Muhammad again made a mistake! He never could remember the OT stories correctly.... but he got away with his deception to his followers but not to the Jews and not to the Christians. They saw through Muhammad immediately.

Now on to what we learn about the story of Lot. Quite a lot actually.

Lot had begged the angels to give him a safe haven in the little city of Zoar, a request they granted. But following the devastation of the cities of the plain, Lot did not even feel safe in this city. So he lived in a cave.

We can hardly approve of their action, yet their desperation was real. Their husbands had died and they were not likely to remarry. Their mother was also dead and they judged their father unlikely to remarry and have more children. Should they die childless, there would be no one to carry on their family name.

The immoral philosophy of Sodom and Gomorrah had so corrupted the thinking of Lot’s daughters that they unhesitatingly contrived to be impregnated by their own father! They were virgins, the married daughters were dead and there were no men left for husbands. In fearing they would have no children, they conceived the gross iniquity.

The two sons born of incest became the progenitors of Moab and Ammon, Israel’s longstanding enemies.

So obviously we learn that their actions had long-term consequences.

Source: (1) John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible.
(2) The Nelson Study Bible

:-?
 
Qasim786 said:
Remeber 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What about the story of Judah sleeping with his daughter in law whom he supposes to be a prostitute in Genesis chapter 38.

Read the whole story from the beginning of Genesis 38, tamar wants to get revenge on her father in law, because he deprived her of her seed right.

Is there any sense of moral teaching in this story which is supposed to be inspired by God? Does it fit anywhere in that beautiful test given in 2 timothy 3:16.?
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Teaching Qasim about the Bible....

Genesis 38:1–30 The Judah-Interlude, as it is sometimes known, is bracketed by references to the sale of Joseph to Potiphar (Genesis 37:36; Genesis 39:1). Such a parenthesis in the Joseph story demands some reason why a chapter laced with wickedness, immorality, and subterfuge should of necessity be placed in this spot.

The answer is that the events recorded are chronologically in the right place, being contemporary with the time of Joseph’s slavery in Egypt (v. 1, “at that timeâ€Â). The account is also genealogically in the right place, i.e., with Joseph gone (seemingly for good), with Reuben, Simeon, and Levi out of favor (for incest and for treachery), Judah would most likely accede to firstborn status.

It provides a contrast because it also demonstrates the immoral character of Judah, as compared with the virtue of Joseph. Canaanite syncretistic religion and inclusivism threatened to absorb the fourth and later generations of Abraham’s heirs, but Egyptian exile and racial exclusivism produced not loss of their ethnic identity, but preservation of it.

Source: John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible.

:) :)
 
Edited to remove islamic promoting materials.



Rule 8 - No Promotion of Other Religions:
You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Debates of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.
 
Teaching Qasim about the Bible....

Genesis 38:1–30 The Judah-Interlude, as it is sometimes known, is bracketed by references to the sale of Joseph to Potiphar (Genesis 37:36; Genesis 39:1). Such a parenthesis in the Joseph story demands some reason why a chapter laced with wickedness, immorality, and subterfuge should of necessity be placed in this spot.

The answer is that the events recorded are chronologically in the right place, being contemporary with the time of Joseph’s slavery in Egypt (v. 1, “at that timeâ€Â). The account is also genealogically in the right place, i.e., with Joseph gone (seemingly for good), with Reuben, Simeon, and Levi out of favor (for incest and for treachery), Judah would most likely accede to firstborn status.

It provides a contrast because it also demonstrates the immoral character of Judah, as compared with the virtue of Joseph. Canaanite syncretistic religion and inclusivism threatened to absorb the fourth and later generations of Abraham’s heirs, but Egyptian exile and racial exclusivism produced not loss of their ethnic identity, but preservation of it.
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What nonsense. Does God tell us that the behaviour of Judah was wrong, was he punished for his actions. Did God 'inspire' the writer to explain how we should stay away from this type of behaviour. Was there any correction, or instruction unto righteousness. What was the purpose of God to 'inspire' this, as you say.
 
The bible is full of admonitions against sexual immorality. Simply recording an event is not necessarily condoning what took place.

Muhammad was not a prophet and the Koran is not recognized by Christians or Jews as inspired by God.
 
Edited:

Rule 8 - No Promotion of Other Religions:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Debates of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.
John 14: 6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


According to you Jesus is God. I have a question. How does God pray to God?
 
Allah's slave said:
Edited:

Rule 8 - No Promotion of Other Religions:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Debates of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.
John 14: 6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


According to you Jesus is God. I have a question. How does God pray to God?
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God exists eternally in three persons the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

In Genesis we see that God made man in His image and likeness...

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 
The bible is full of admonitions against sexual immorality. Simply recording an event is not necessarily condoning what took place.

Muhammad was not a prophet and the Koran is not recognized by Christians or Jews as inspired by God.
Click to expand...

Well in these particulary cases i fail to see the admonitions given. Infact, there is no admonition - no reproof or warning agaisnt these acts. Lets have a look at what happens according to your bible. Judah finds out three months after having sexual intercourse with his daughter in law, thinking she was a prostitute, that it was her who played the harlot and that she is pregnant. At this Judah orders that she be brought out and burned. However he realizes that she was more righteous than her because he forgot to give her to his son, Shelah. After this the bible tells us that he 'had no further intercourse with her'. Then what happens. Nothing: fullstop, finished - there is no reproof or warning given at all. Where is the admonition that you are talking about. Remember this supposed to be the inspired word of God. According to 2 Timothy 3:16, all scripture must either be your doctrine, or it must show reproof or correction, or it must instruct you into righteousness. Which one of these requirements does the story of Judah having sex with his daughter in law fall under? What about Lot's daughters getting him drunk and having sex with him, which one does that fall under?
 
Ezekiel 23:14-20 (NIV)


(14) But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeans portrayed in red,

(15) with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea.

(16) As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea.

(17) Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust.

(18) When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.

(19) Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.

(20) There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.


And this has been inspired by God? :D

edited***

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible4.htm comments-

"The story of the sister whores, Aholah and Aholibah gives a moral lesson against the sins of the flesh. But why does God have to describe their adventures in such pornographic detail?"
 
Ezekiel 23

The whole chapter is describing the sin of idolatry of the two nations Samaria and Israel. The two nations became senseless and apathetic so that no amount of decent admonition would work with them. There was no amount of nice words that would cause them to recognise the gravity of their sin, the sin of idolatry. So the prophet had to use this language to make his point. Such strong language needed to be used to burn into their hearts and minds like acid the message of the prophet.

Since the beginning of the nation of Israel they have been unfaithful to the God who delivered them out of the land of Egypt. At that "time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and held a celebration in honour of what their hands had made. ... This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: 'Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel? You have lifted up the shrine of Moloch and the star of your god Rephan, the idols you made to worship." (Acts 7:41-43) The children of Israel were violating the first and the most important commandment, which says, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them." (Exodus 20:2-4)

Had DivineNames taken the time to read the whole chapter he would have recognised the main message of the prophet Ezekiel.

Here is the summary of that chapter:

  • "You shall pay the penality for your lewd conduct and be punished for your idolatry, and you will know that I am the Lord God." (Ezekiel 23:49)
Had the prophet gone to them and preached against idol worship in more ordinary tones that would have had less effect. But he used the image of a harlot and sexual acts to portray the sordidness of the sin of worshipping idols. It is a language that makes people take note.

Did you?

-source-
 
it did amaze me that lot was saved fromt eh city, because god sent angels to save him, because he wasnt like the others, neither were his daughters ect, they werent "sodomites" yet wait, god was wrong., they were!
 
2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:


2 Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
 
(14) But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeans portrayed in red,

(15) with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea.

(16) As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea.

(17) Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust.

(18) When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.

(19) Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.

(20) There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
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Truly revolting, why does God need to make a comparison about lovers who's genitals are like those of donkeys, and emissions like those of horses with the idol worship of the two nations. Would you use this language infront of your children, or would you ever hear this type of language in a church, when talking about idolatory? Theres truly is no justification for this type of language in a supposed book of God.
 
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